Discussion
RamboLambo said:
_Leg_ said:
Like it or not the Ferrari will still be the cheaper car to own in the long run.
List price to list undoubtedly yes and always will be but surely not at that level above. I kind of get a premium on 458 speciale as the last N/A V8 Ferrari but 488 being turbocharged has lost something for me and is right up against McLaren like for like now. When 750LT comes along and smashes 488 PISTA out of the park people will have a choice and premiums will soften from £100k A 750 LT won't smash a 488 Pista out of the park other than maybe on paper and when Chris Harris slides one round a closed circuit somewhere. Only cock wavers in pubs care about such things. To quote statistics as evidence of one car being better, or more desirable, than another is to misunderstand what cars are all about.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a new Focus RS would absolutely murder my Mk1 Escort RS1600 BDA round any circuit you chose but, no one in their right minds would choose the Focus over the Escort and I guarantee, you wouldn't enjoy driving the Focus as much as the Escort.
Desirability is not statistics. Ferrari understand that, they're exceptionally good at cultivating it and LE, special edition and such like cars that they produce will always be hugely desirable cars. To be frank, as something of a 'amante d'italia' I would go as far as to say that Italians understand that better than anyone in terms of most things they do. Hell, their language is a pain in the arse (I'm half way through a night class course learning Italian) but when you get it, it's like having the very best malt whisky poured into your ear from a velvet lined goblet.
The 720S will depreciate, the Pista appreciate. 3 years of ownership will see the 720 owner losing money and the Pista owner at the very worst, breaking even. It's inevitable. Not that I'm personally interested in such things but it is inevitable, like it or not.
Edited by _Leg_ on Wednesday 14th March 22:41
_Leg_ said:
You're still fixated on performance and as I said a long time ago (if you recall) when I posted that pic of the 250GTO to make the point, performance has nothing to do with how coveted a car is nor how good it is.
A 750 LT won't smash a 488 Pista out of the park other than maybe on paper and when Chris Harris slides one round a closed circuit somewhere. Only cock wavers in pubs care about such things. To quote statistics as evidence of one car being better, or more desirable, than another is to misunderstand what cars are all about.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a new Focus RS would absolutely murder my Mk1 Escort RS1600 BDA round any circuit you chose but, no one in their right minds would choose the Focus over the Escort and I guarantee, you wouldn't enjoy driving the Focus as much as the Escort.
Desirability is not statistics. Ferrari understand that, they're exceptionally good at cultivating it and LE, special edition and such like cars that they produce will always be hugely desirable cars. To be frank, as something of a 'amante d'italia' I would go as far as to say that Italians understand that better than anyone in terms of most things they do. Hell, their language is a pain in the arse (I'm half way through a night class course learning Italian) but when you get it, it's like having the very best malt whisky poured into your ear from a velvet lined goblet.
The 720S will depreciate, the Pista appreciate. 3 years of ownership will see the 720 owner losing money and the Pista owner at the very worst, breaking even. It's inevitable. Not that I'm personally interested in such things but it is inevitable, like it or not.
I'm not actually fixated on performance its more about how it feels than outright speed shown by my acquisition of a Lamborghini Huracan Performante which had absolutely nothing to do with a certain lap record but all to do with a V10 Naturally aspirated engine that sounds awesome.A 750 LT won't smash a 488 Pista out of the park other than maybe on paper and when Chris Harris slides one round a closed circuit somewhere. Only cock wavers in pubs care about such things. To quote statistics as evidence of one car being better, or more desirable, than another is to misunderstand what cars are all about.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, a new Focus RS would absolutely murder my Mk1 Escort RS1600 BDA round any circuit you chose but, no one in their right minds would choose the Focus over the Escort and I guarantee, you wouldn't enjoy driving the Focus as much as the Escort.
Desirability is not statistics. Ferrari understand that, they're exceptionally good at cultivating it and LE, special edition and such like cars that they produce will always be hugely desirable cars. To be frank, as something of a 'amante d'italia' I would go as far as to say that Italians understand that better than anyone in terms of most things they do. Hell, their language is a pain in the arse (I'm half way through a night class course learning Italian) but when you get it, it's like having the very best malt whisky poured into your ear from a velvet lined goblet.
The 720S will depreciate, the Pista appreciate. 3 years of ownership will see the 720 owner losing money and the Pista owner at the very worst, breaking even. It's inevitable. Not that I'm personally interested in such things but it is inevitable, like it or not.
Edited by _Leg_ on Wednesday 14th March 22:41
Both the 488 PISTA and McLaren 720S are undoubtedly quicker and in a different performance league but neither have the FUN factor of the Lambo which sounds and feels fast at 30 mph as opposed to warp speed
AndStilliRise said:
Camlet said:
As you say, Ferrari is one of the most powerful, glamorous brands in the world. Not just autos either, in terms of brand salience it easily sits alongside the likes of Apple and Disney.
Supply and Demand is a key item but the nature of Ferrari's power as a brand has little to do with economics.
Dr Stephen King (the advertising planning guru not the horror writer) defined decades ago what comprises a "powerbrand". He said a powerbrand has outstanding functional benefits wrapped by outstanding non functional values. Not one or the other, both are essential.
McLaren build great cars but in terms of non functional values, McLaren is weak, I would argue very weak. That's not surprising from where they started and there's no question it's achieved excellent results in a short time. But as a brand power they are massively behind Ferrari. That's why brand salience for McLaren is modest. True enthusiasts love it and that's great, and I sincerely commend your approach. But so long as Ferrari builds great cars, it will continue to exert incredible brand power.
To be clear non functional values have nothing to do with performance or build. It is the irrational stuff you call ''the badge'' except it is much more than just a badge. Why does Apple sit as the largest company on the planet with a market cap of 888 billion dollars? Is the iPone so much better than a Galaxy? Is Apple OS so much better than Android OS?
Samsung is like McLaren. Apple is like Ferrari (albeit the former has sold a well over a billion of its products).
Are Ferrari non functional values alone enough to justify the huge arguments over a non LE car? Absolutely not. Ferrari knows it must build sensational cars otherwise everyone will talk about the history in glowing terms but sales and stock price will tank.
But when Ferrari announce what looks like a sensational car, the brand's non functional values amplifies this by factor McLaren can only dream about. The P1 is an awesome car but the F50 is now on par in terms of value and heading north; the LaF is considerably more. One can argue about the stupidity of this in the comfort of this forum but in the real world I come back to the Apple vs Samsung example.
VWG has achieved amazing results with its group of powerbrands lead arguably by Porsche. Under VWG's wing, Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti have all flourished. I think Porsche is the closest to the brand power of Ferrari, the frenzy over the 911R being a case in point.
It's quite possible the Pista's 0-200 km/per hour will be beaten by a McLaren. The reality is Ferrari doesn't need to build the fastest, the Pista merely needs to be sensational. Because Ferrari's bragging rights include 70 glorious years of racing heritage and some of the finest and sexiest road cars ever made. The Pista will sell like hot cakes, options will add probably 75K to the base price and residuals will be granite like compared to its nearest rivals.
Good read, Power Brand, need to learn more!Supply and Demand is a key item but the nature of Ferrari's power as a brand has little to do with economics.
Dr Stephen King (the advertising planning guru not the horror writer) defined decades ago what comprises a "powerbrand". He said a powerbrand has outstanding functional benefits wrapped by outstanding non functional values. Not one or the other, both are essential.
McLaren build great cars but in terms of non functional values, McLaren is weak, I would argue very weak. That's not surprising from where they started and there's no question it's achieved excellent results in a short time. But as a brand power they are massively behind Ferrari. That's why brand salience for McLaren is modest. True enthusiasts love it and that's great, and I sincerely commend your approach. But so long as Ferrari builds great cars, it will continue to exert incredible brand power.
To be clear non functional values have nothing to do with performance or build. It is the irrational stuff you call ''the badge'' except it is much more than just a badge. Why does Apple sit as the largest company on the planet with a market cap of 888 billion dollars? Is the iPone so much better than a Galaxy? Is Apple OS so much better than Android OS?
Samsung is like McLaren. Apple is like Ferrari (albeit the former has sold a well over a billion of its products).
Are Ferrari non functional values alone enough to justify the huge arguments over a non LE car? Absolutely not. Ferrari knows it must build sensational cars otherwise everyone will talk about the history in glowing terms but sales and stock price will tank.
But when Ferrari announce what looks like a sensational car, the brand's non functional values amplifies this by factor McLaren can only dream about. The P1 is an awesome car but the F50 is now on par in terms of value and heading north; the LaF is considerably more. One can argue about the stupidity of this in the comfort of this forum but in the real world I come back to the Apple vs Samsung example.
VWG has achieved amazing results with its group of powerbrands lead arguably by Porsche. Under VWG's wing, Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti have all flourished. I think Porsche is the closest to the brand power of Ferrari, the frenzy over the 911R being a case in point.
It's quite possible the Pista's 0-200 km/per hour will be beaten by a McLaren. The reality is Ferrari doesn't need to build the fastest, the Pista merely needs to be sensational. Because Ferrari's bragging rights include 70 glorious years of racing heritage and some of the finest and sexiest road cars ever made. The Pista will sell like hot cakes, options will add probably 75K to the base price and residuals will be granite like compared to its nearest rivals.
But in the 1960s two big brands were battling to win this important sector (I mean 99.9% of the population use bog paper). One brand decided to use a little Golden Retriever puppy in its ads.
The other didn't, probably saying how stupid it was to use puppies to sell bog paper. But they didn't understand the powerful non functional values a puppy could communicate. Andrex is with us today and is probably the best known bog paper in the UK by far (and I bet not the cheapest either). Dixcel was the other brand. Dixcel who? Quite.
Some brands understand this, many just focus on performance. Nike is another, Phil Knight was meant to have said to Dan Weiden (the ad guy who came up with Just Do It) ''Hi I'm Phil Knight and I hate advertising''. Phil was Nike's founder and is still a giant. He believed people would buy Nike because they were great shoes and athletes wore them. That was until Reebok scared Nike with its huge success in the 1980s. Then Nike started to advertise. The rest as they say is history.
And before you say Ferrari doesn't advertise, think again. They're one of the smartest marketers on the planet and advertise plenty. Just not TV or press ads.
Edited by Camlet on Wednesday 14th March 23:28
RamboLambo said:
I'm not actually fixated on performance its more about how it feels than outright speed shown by my acquisition of a Lamborghini Huracan Performante which had absolutely nothing to do with a certain lap record but all to do with a V10 Naturally aspirated engine that sounds awesome.
Both the 488 PISTA and McLaren 720S are undoubtedly quicker and in a different performance league but neither have the FUN factor of the Lambo which sounds and feels fast at 30 mph as opposed to warp speed
Yes you are matey, well, when it suits your own purchases you are. If I had the energy, (and I've just got back from a 60 minute kart race which has reminded me that I am 48 [maybe 98] so I don't) I could go back through your posts and quote comments you've made like the one below all about performance of this or that, usually a McLaren over a Ferrari, making one car better than another.Both the 488 PISTA and McLaren 720S are undoubtedly quicker and in a different performance league but neither have the FUN factor of the Lambo which sounds and feels fast at 30 mph as opposed to warp speed
RamboLambo said:
When 750LT comes along and smashes 488 PISTA out of the park people will have a choice and premiums will soften from £100k
You've simply changed your tune now to bang on about n/a engines.You've actually reached the stage where your own opinions are so disparate from one thread to another I'm pretty sure you could start a new thread and have a fairly lengthy debate with yourself, from opposing viewpoints, from one post to the next. Now that, I would read.
Now, that's really none of my business, it's free world and a (reasonably) free forum in terms of speech. My point was that anything 'smashing' anything 'out of the park' in performance terms means sweet FA when it comes to desirability nor collectability and in all fairness to everyone reading, you did make the point I quote above.
_Leg_ said:
.
I'm pretty sure you could start a new thread and have a fairly lengthy debate with yourself, from opposing viewpoints, from one post to the next. Now that, I would read.
.
I'm pretty sure you could start a new thread and have a fairly lengthy debate with yourself, from opposing viewpoints, from one post to the next. Now that, I would read.
.
Yeah but I'm sure I would still come out on top one way or another.Pointing out that the 750LT is likely to top trump the 488 PISTA is a fact not an opinion that it is not the be all and end all. For some people it may be but not myself.
In terms of a naturally aspirated engine yes I have formed an opinion over a period of time and several supercars that with it becoming a dying breed I would like to own one of the last and best engines out there before it goes out of existence.
Its not the most powerful, its not the most economic mpg but it is one of the most responsive and best sounding and this is a very big part of the overall experience for me, not just volume but tone.
If, as rumoured, the Huracan Performante becomes the last N/a V10 engine from Lamborghini which increases desire/collectability and residuals then that's a Brucie bonus.
I stand by the fact you cannot beat a big Naturally aspirated engine in a supercar and maybe the Huracan Performante is the pinnacle version of this gazumping the 458 Speciale. At least Tony at Gravelwoods seems to think so and he is a Ferrari fanboy
Edited by RamboLambo on Thursday 15th March 12:24
Camlet said:
Thank you. Probably the most bizarre case study to prove the power of advertising and the effect of brand power features bog paper! In terms of functional benefits there's not much to said about the performance of one bog paper versus another.
I beg to differ. Have you ever tried this stuf!!!
Camlet said:
wise words
Brilliant post.At this level I'm convinced that most people buy with their heart than their head. Let's face it no one needs any of these cars. There are some material differences between them, but I don't think they matter a great deal to most owners, at least not enough to sway the heart.
The Apple vs Samsung analogy is perfect. I'm not an Apple zealot, but I have quite a few bits of Apple kit and if pressed I'm not sure I could explain in objective, unemotional terms exactly why that is. I bought a fully loaded MacBook Pro which cost probably at least £1000 more than a comparable Dell, which would have been better specced too.
Again, I bought an iPhone X shortly after they came out. It is certainly less feature-packed than an Galaxy S8. Does it matter to me? No. Can I fully explain that decision? No.
All this guff about Top Trumps stats, N/A vs Turbo, etc misses the point completely I think about these cars, within the same category at least. "But it doesn't have a carbon tub?!" is not important to me.
Ferrari are experts in this domain, with Porsche (as Camlet eruditely observed) very close behind. There is a great deal of thinking that goes into how they position their brands, how many cars they produce and who can get them and - certainly with special editions - who they allow to buy them. It is a tactic not without risk, as there will certainly be Ferrari fans and good customers who will miss out on the Pista, but - crucially - they will probably continue to be Ferrari fans in spite of this bump in the road for them.
That is brand power.
Durzel said:
Brilliant post.
At this level I'm convinced that most people buy with their heart than their head. Let's face it no one needs any of these cars. There are some material differences between them, but I don't think they matter a great deal to most owners, at least not enough to sway the heart.
The Apple vs Samsung analogy is perfect. I'm not an Apple zealot, but I have quite a few bits of Apple kit and if pressed I'm not sure I could explain in objective, unemotional terms exactly why that is. I bought a fully loaded MacBook Pro which cost probably at least £1000 more than a comparable Dell, which would have been better specced too.
Again, I bought an iPhone X shortly after they came out. It is certainly less feature-packed than an Galaxy S8. Does it matter to me? No. Can I fully explain that decision? No.
All this guff about Top Trumps stats, N/A vs Turbo, etc misses the point completely I think about these cars, within the same category at least. "But it doesn't have a carbon tub?!" is not important to me.
Ferrari are experts in this domain, with Porsche (as Camlet eruditely observed) very close behind. There is a great deal of thinking that goes into how they position their brands, how many cars they produce and who can get them and - certainly with special editions - who they allow to buy them. It is a tactic not without risk, as there will certainly be Ferrari fans and good customers who will miss out on the Pista, but - crucially - they will probably continue to be Ferrari fans in spite of this bump in the road for them.
That is brand power.
Love them on loathe them, there's only one car brand like Ferrari. As time has gone on Ferrari appear to be getting better at weeding out flippers, partly by their obsession with what other cars of theirs you own (and as importantly what you've done with what you used to own), and partly by being very draconian with the dealers who sell "special" cars to flippers. This appears to me to have worked pretty well with recent cars such as 458SA and F12 TDF. At this level I'm convinced that most people buy with their heart than their head. Let's face it no one needs any of these cars. There are some material differences between them, but I don't think they matter a great deal to most owners, at least not enough to sway the heart.
The Apple vs Samsung analogy is perfect. I'm not an Apple zealot, but I have quite a few bits of Apple kit and if pressed I'm not sure I could explain in objective, unemotional terms exactly why that is. I bought a fully loaded MacBook Pro which cost probably at least £1000 more than a comparable Dell, which would have been better specced too.
Again, I bought an iPhone X shortly after they came out. It is certainly less feature-packed than an Galaxy S8. Does it matter to me? No. Can I fully explain that decision? No.
All this guff about Top Trumps stats, N/A vs Turbo, etc misses the point completely I think about these cars, within the same category at least. "But it doesn't have a carbon tub?!" is not important to me.
Ferrari are experts in this domain, with Porsche (as Camlet eruditely observed) very close behind. There is a great deal of thinking that goes into how they position their brands, how many cars they produce and who can get them and - certainly with special editions - who they allow to buy them. It is a tactic not without risk, as there will certainly be Ferrari fans and good customers who will miss out on the Pista, but - crucially - they will probably continue to be Ferrari fans in spite of this bump in the road for them.
That is brand power.
Porsche seem to be in more of a mess at the moment on this - not only are they making a lot more of their special cars (over 500 GT4's came into the UK in the end I'm told). but DP's don't seem to have got the message about flippers in the same way. I could be wrong on this about GT2RS, but between what's listed for sale on PH, plus four I've been offered directly, I suspect we'll see a lot more of these on the resale market than ever existed with 458SA/F12TDF.
McLaren is so new its very different. They're surely still working out their power base - they hoped to build a lot more P1's but sensibly throttled it back when demand didn't look that strong, but then in the end the P1 became popular towards the end of the run and looked like being good news value wise (as well as stunning to drive). The car has appreciated but not that much (forget what they're being advertised at - what would someone write a cheque for today to buy one?). But that's the only one which has held its value to date - LT too has fallen irrespective of it being a great car; the brand as yet isn't strong enough, or trusted enough by clients.
We digress. Worth finishing saying that from what I recall on this thread every car mentioned is stunning. There are good and bad decisions if you're buying to store and build a collection (and only one rule: buy Ferrari), but if you're buying to own and drive it then there's surely any and every car we're discussing is a GREAT decision, just with differing opinions.
RamboLambo said:
_Leg_ said:
.
I'm pretty sure you could start a new thread and have a fairly lengthy debate with yourself, from opposing viewpoints, from one post to the next. Now that, I would read.
.
I'm pretty sure you could start a new thread and have a fairly lengthy debate with yourself, from opposing viewpoints, from one post to the next. Now that, I would read.
.
Yeah but I'm sure I would still come out on top one way or another.Pointing out that the 750LT is likely to top trump the 488 PISTA is a fact not an opinion that it is not the be all and end all. For some people it may be but not myself.
In terms of a naturally aspirated engine yes I have formed an opinion over a period of time and several supercars that with it becoming a dying breed I would like to own one of the last and best engines out there before it goes out of existence.
Its not the most powerful, its not the most economic mpg but it is one of the most responsive and best sounding and this is a very big part of the overall experience for me, not just volume but tone.
If, as rumoured, the Huracan Performante becomes the last N/a V10 engine from Lamborghini which increases desire/collectability and residuals then that's a Brucie bonus.
I stand by the fact you cannot beat a big Naturally aspirated engine in a supercar and maybe the Huracan Performante is the pinnacle version of this gazumping the 458 Speciale. At least Tony at Gravelwoods seems to think so and he is a Ferrari fanboy
Edited by RamboLambo on Thursday 15th March 12:24
A year ago you were rubbishing the Performante's lap time, describing the "letterbox windscreen" as dangerous, the seating position as terrible and saying that the 720 was by far the better car. What changed ?
I think you will find you are indeed contradictory.
Jules360 said:
So what were your endless posts about the 650S "chewing up and spitting out a 458" about then and endless you tube videos of drag races to prove your point ?
A year ago you were rubbishing the Performante's lap time, describing the "letterbox windscreen" as dangerous, the seating position as terrible and saying that the 720 was by far the better car. What changed ?
I think you will find you are indeed contradictory.
650S does chew up and spit out a 458 in performance terms FACTA year ago you were rubbishing the Performante's lap time, describing the "letterbox windscreen" as dangerous, the seating position as terrible and saying that the 720 was by far the better car. What changed ?
I think you will find you are indeed contradictory.
NEVER rubbished the Performantes lap time FACT
The windscreen on the Huracan is like a letterbox especially if you are tall FACT
NEVER said the 720S was a better car, faster yes, but personally I don't like its styling FACT
These are purely facts not necessarily opinions. OBJECTIVELY I think a McLaren is hard to beat SUBJECTIVELY Lamborghini and Ferrari will win.
The best car IMHO is the one that achieves both which would of been Ferrari until Lamborghini seriously upped its game and nailed the Performante which is no longer a #lifestylelambo but a serious track weapon. Perfect combination of Naturally aspirated engine response and sound giving drama, fun and excitement as well as scalpel precision and driving dynamics through ALA.
The supercar market is ever evolving which is great for everyone and we will all want/like different things at different stages so there is no fixed right or wrong answer so I reserve the right to contradict my self several times as long as its not in the same paragraph
RamboLambo said:
Jules360 said:
So what were your endless posts about the 650S "chewing up and spitting out a 458" about then and endless you tube videos of drag races to prove your point ?
A year ago you were rubbishing the Performante's lap time, describing the "letterbox windscreen" as dangerous, the seating position as terrible and saying that the 720 was by far the better car. What changed ?
I think you will find you are indeed contradictory.
650S does chew up and spit out a 458 in performance terms FACTA year ago you were rubbishing the Performante's lap time, describing the "letterbox windscreen" as dangerous, the seating position as terrible and saying that the 720 was by far the better car. What changed ?
I think you will find you are indeed contradictory.
NEVER rubbished the Performantes lap time FACT
The windscreen on the Huracan is like a letterbox especially if you are tall FACT
NEVER said the 720S was a better car, faster yes, but personally I don't like its styling FACT
These are purely facts not necessarily opinions. OBJECTIVELY I think a McLaren is hard to beat SUBJECTIVELY Lamborghini and Ferrari will win.
The best car IMHO is the one that achieves both which would of been Ferrari until Lamborghini seriously upped its game and nailed the Performante which is no longer a #lifestylelambo but a serious track weapon. Perfect combination of Naturally aspirated engine response and sound giving drama, fun and excitement as well as scalpel precision and driving dynamics through ALA.
The supercar market is ever evolving which is great for everyone and we will all want/like different things at different stages so there is no fixed right or wrong answer so I reserve the right to contradict my self several times as long as its not in the same paragraph
1, You just said performance wasn't important, so in what oter way does the 650 "beat" the 458, seeing as the current RL measure of greatness is a N/A engine ?
2.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1656381&r=35319115&hm=193157&mid=193157#35319115
3.You are by your own admission 5'9" and you said that it was dangerous to drive. So it doesn't just apply to correctly sized humans.
4.I refer you to 2
As for the ALA, since you never go near a track, i hope it is equally useful in Exeter high street while you are displaying your great wealth to what you usually describe as "the general public".
Oh, and I don't need a paper round before your usual line of insults starts
RamboLambo said:
650S does chew up and spit out a 458 in performance terms FACT
NEVER rubbished the Performantes lap time FACT
The windscreen on the Huracan is like a letterbox especially if you are tall FACT
NEVER said the 720S was a better car, faster yes, but personally I don't like its styling FACT
These are purely facts not necessarily opinions. OBJECTIVELY I think a McLaren is hard to beat SUBJECTIVELY Lamborghini and Ferrari will win.
The best car IMHO is the one that achieves both which would of been Ferrari until Lamborghini seriously upped its game and nailed the Performante which is no longer a #lifestylelambo but a serious track weapon. Perfect combination of Naturally aspirated engine response and sound giving drama, fun and excitement as well as scalpel precision and driving dynamics through ALA.
The supercar market is ever evolving which is great for everyone and we will all want/like different things at different stages so there is no fixed right or wrong answer so I reserve the right to contradict my self several times as long as its not in the same paragraph
You're putting your own opinion across as fact there, dude. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you cannot really put 'FACT' after some of the above.NEVER rubbished the Performantes lap time FACT
The windscreen on the Huracan is like a letterbox especially if you are tall FACT
NEVER said the 720S was a better car, faster yes, but personally I don't like its styling FACT
These are purely facts not necessarily opinions. OBJECTIVELY I think a McLaren is hard to beat SUBJECTIVELY Lamborghini and Ferrari will win.
The best car IMHO is the one that achieves both which would of been Ferrari until Lamborghini seriously upped its game and nailed the Performante which is no longer a #lifestylelambo but a serious track weapon. Perfect combination of Naturally aspirated engine response and sound giving drama, fun and excitement as well as scalpel precision and driving dynamics through ALA.
The supercar market is ever evolving which is great for everyone and we will all want/like different things at different stages so there is no fixed right or wrong answer so I reserve the right to contradict my self several times as long as its not in the same paragraph
1. Questionable as open to interpretation. Using what metric to support your fact?
2. I read the post linked above and again, this is only 'fact' to you. I don't think you "rubbish" (implying attempt to discredit or damage/destroy/cast aside)) the time in that post - merely point out that it was done in pretty controlled conditions and purely for PR...which is what surely all NR times are done for?
3. Not 'FACT' - your opinion. (Becomes fact when you can provide a letterbox that matches a lambo windscreen as evidence
ha)4. Not enough evidence to support whether you said that or not. Case dismissed.
Your last line is cock on, tho. And shouldn't that be encouraged? Nobody is right or wrong and people (shock horror) can change their minds!!! It's a wonderful thing. Not sure you deserve being called out for it.
Edited by PhantomPH on Thursday 15th March 16:55
Back on topic as such
I want a pista..... simple
I can’t afford one though and I wouldn’t get on the list anyway
But oh my god I want one so much
If any of you on here are super super wealthy and won’t notice 250k+ gone from your accounts and feel like making a guy happy feel free! I feel so sad that most of these will end up with flippers that only want it to make money and not to enjoy or they will be locked away in collections!
I just want one to get away from life’s stresses turn the key and enjoy
f
k sake I hate my life
I want a pista..... simple
I can’t afford one though and I wouldn’t get on the list anyway
But oh my god I want one so much
If any of you on here are super super wealthy and won’t notice 250k+ gone from your accounts and feel like making a guy happy feel free! I feel so sad that most of these will end up with flippers that only want it to make money and not to enjoy or they will be locked away in collections!
I just want one to get away from life’s stresses turn the key and enjoy
f
k sake I hate my lifeCamlet said:
As you say, Ferrari is one of the most powerful, glamorous brands in the world. Not just autos either, in terms of brand salience it easily sits alongside the likes of Apple and Disney.
Supply and Demand is a key item but the nature of Ferrari's power as a brand has little to do with economics.
Dr Stephen King (the advertising planning guru not the horror writer) defined decades ago what comprises a "powerbrand". He said a powerbrand has outstanding functional benefits wrapped by outstanding non functional values. Not one or the other, both are essential.
McLaren build great cars but in terms of non functional values, McLaren is weak, I would argue very weak. That's not surprising from where they started and there's no question it's achieved excellent results in a short time. But as a brand power they are massively behind Ferrari. That's why brand salience for McLaren is modest. True enthusiasts love it and that's great, and I sincerely commend your approach. But so long as Ferrari builds great cars, it will continue to exert incredible brand power.
To be clear non functional values have nothing to do with performance or build. It is the irrational stuff you call ''the badge'' except it is much more than just a badge. Why does Apple sit as the largest company on the planet with a market cap of 888 billion dollars? Is the iPone so much better than a Galaxy? Is Apple OS so much better than Android OS?
Samsung is like McLaren. Apple is like Ferrari (albeit the former has sold a well over a billion of its products).
Are Ferrari non functional values alone enough to justify the huge arguments over a non LE car? Absolutely not. Ferrari knows it must build sensational cars otherwise everyone will talk about the history in glowing terms but sales and stock price will tank.
But when Ferrari announce what looks like a sensational car, the brand's non functional values amplifies this by factor McLaren can only dream about. The P1 is an awesome car but the F50 is now on par in terms of value and heading north; the LaF is considerably more. One can argue about the stupidity of this in the comfort of this forum but in the real world I come back to the Apple vs Samsung example.
VWG has achieved amazing results with its group of powerbrands lead arguably by Porsche. Under VWG's wing, Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti have all flourished. I think Porsche is the closest to the brand power of Ferrari, the frenzy over the 911R being a case in point.
It's quite possible the Pista's 0-200 km/per hour will be beaten by a McLaren. The reality is Ferrari doesn't need to build the fastest, the Pista merely needs to be sensational. Because Ferrari's bragging rights include 70 glorious years of racing heritage and some of the finest and sexiest road cars ever made. The Pista will sell like hot cakes, options will add probably 75K to the base price and residuals will be granite like compared to its nearest rivals.
Great post Camlet!Supply and Demand is a key item but the nature of Ferrari's power as a brand has little to do with economics.
Dr Stephen King (the advertising planning guru not the horror writer) defined decades ago what comprises a "powerbrand". He said a powerbrand has outstanding functional benefits wrapped by outstanding non functional values. Not one or the other, both are essential.
McLaren build great cars but in terms of non functional values, McLaren is weak, I would argue very weak. That's not surprising from where they started and there's no question it's achieved excellent results in a short time. But as a brand power they are massively behind Ferrari. That's why brand salience for McLaren is modest. True enthusiasts love it and that's great, and I sincerely commend your approach. But so long as Ferrari builds great cars, it will continue to exert incredible brand power.
To be clear non functional values have nothing to do with performance or build. It is the irrational stuff you call ''the badge'' except it is much more than just a badge. Why does Apple sit as the largest company on the planet with a market cap of 888 billion dollars? Is the iPone so much better than a Galaxy? Is Apple OS so much better than Android OS?
Samsung is like McLaren. Apple is like Ferrari (albeit the former has sold a well over a billion of its products).
Are Ferrari non functional values alone enough to justify the huge arguments over a non LE car? Absolutely not. Ferrari knows it must build sensational cars otherwise everyone will talk about the history in glowing terms but sales and stock price will tank.
But when Ferrari announce what looks like a sensational car, the brand's non functional values amplifies this by factor McLaren can only dream about. The P1 is an awesome car but the F50 is now on par in terms of value and heading north; the LaF is considerably more. One can argue about the stupidity of this in the comfort of this forum but in the real world I come back to the Apple vs Samsung example.
VWG has achieved amazing results with its group of powerbrands lead arguably by Porsche. Under VWG's wing, Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti have all flourished. I think Porsche is the closest to the brand power of Ferrari, the frenzy over the 911R being a case in point.
It's quite possible the Pista's 0-200 km/per hour will be beaten by a McLaren. The reality is Ferrari doesn't need to build the fastest, the Pista merely needs to be sensational. Because Ferrari's bragging rights include 70 glorious years of racing heritage and some of the finest and sexiest road cars ever made. The Pista will sell like hot cakes, options will add probably 75K to the base price and residuals will be granite like compared to its nearest rivals.
Whilst I understand and agree with the sentiment, I do feel like the "Powerbrands" can sometimes brainwash a lot of people. Looking at the drones queuing up out side phone shops for the latest iphones that are barely better than the last phone. Samasung and other brands don't have this so it's to be applauded with a marketing and business point of view but it never ceases to amaze me that those people will continue to fall in line and pay their £800+ per year for the latest phone, irrespective of whether it's any better than a Samsung or other phone but they just need the cache of having the latest Apple product.
This produces a kind of anti-establishment reaction in me. I don't like to conform, to fall in line......I don't like to make the obvious decision. I had iphones for years until I picked up a Samsung.....wow, what a difference.........never looked back since.
You make an interesting point about McLaren too. I sit here with a Samsung phone and a McLaren in the garage.
In my opinion, the default choices for a lot of people would be a Ferrari & an Iphone. Thats the strength of their brand which is to be admired......if someone wins the lottery, the almost default choice is to go and buy a red Ferrari........without any real appreciation of what it is or what other cars can offer.........it's why I avoid Ferrari, they make great cars of course, but to me they are bought people (outside of these forums of course!) by people who like the cache of the brand and what it says about themselves to others....and thats what I wouldn't want to be associated with. I understand entirely why some do, but it's not for me.
McLaren have a huge way to go and probably will never get to where Ferrari are at all but they are closing the gap slowly (whilst still making mistakes like bring out too many new cars each year) but competition can only be a good thing
Lots of “book talking” especially from those with large and exclusive Ferrari collections! The cool aid has been drunk so heavily, that the irony of expressing awe of the notion of a “power brand” whilst themselves being a “victim” of the very thing has gone unnoticed! I can almost hear Ferrari executives clinking their champagne glasses right now.
This will be an interesting read at some point in the future because nothing lasts forever. The market has no loyalty.
This will be an interesting read at some point in the future because nothing lasts forever. The market has no loyalty.
WDISMYL said:
Lots of “book talking” especially from those with large and exclusive Ferrari collections! The cool aid has been drunk so heavily, that the irony of expressing awe of the notion of a “power brand” whilst themselves being a “victim” of the very thing has gone unnoticed! I can almost hear Ferrari executives clinking their champagne glasses right now.
This will be an interesting read at some point in the future because nothing lasts forever. The market has no loyalty.
Jeez. You sound like my wifeThis will be an interesting read at some point in the future because nothing lasts forever. The market has no loyalty.
Here's a couple of shots from Geneva that might help your condition
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