Lawsuit: Ferrari has device to reset odometers?

[Yipper]

100 IAN said:

Back in the early noughties F40's were circa £150k and all had circa 20k on the clock, there were some with 25-30k on the clock.

Today they're what....£800k and pretty much all have 5-10k on the clock. I can't remember the last time I saw one advertised with 20k miles(!)

Perhaps low mileage ones are crap so people want to get rid of them, but high mileage ones are better and so owners want to keep them....?

....or maybe not!

lol!

Yes, the F40 market is very suspicious. Lots of 25-30yo cars with 1k miles on the clock...

[SpeckledJim]

ferrisbueller said:

SpeckledJim said:

Nobody wants to buy a 70k 10 year old Ferrari. But that's what they all actually are.

Everybody wants to buy a 30k 10 year old Ferrari. So that's what everyone conspires to create. Owners, dealers, next owners. It's in nobody's interest to rock the boat, and everybody's interest that it continue.

My, that's a broad brush you're wielding there.

I suppose so. But regardless of who actually does the clocking, the whole system benefits from it, doesn't it, so long as nobody blows the whistle.

Of course not every Ferrari owner clocks their car. But whether an individual owner does or doesn't, they benefit from whatever clocking was done before they owned it.

And as long as everyone understands the game, I suppose it's not really a problem.

[anonymous-user]

It won't happen but think how it be if historic Ferrari mileages were now in so much doubt that they ceased to be a factor in values. Cars would be bought and sold on condition alone, thereby encouraging owners to get out and use them. Maybe we'd see all those gorgeous GTOs, TDFs, Lussos and F40s out on the road again.

[Kyodo]

SpeckledJim said:

Nobody wants to buy a 70k 10 year old Ferrari. But that's what they all actually are.

Everybody wants to buy a 30k 10 year old Ferrari. So that's what everyone conspires to create. Owners, dealers, next owners. It's in nobody's interest to rock the boat, and everybody's interest that it continue.

Laughable.

[jtremlett]

thecook101 said:

It won't happen but think how it be if historic Ferrari mileages were now in so much doubt that they ceased to be a factor in values. Cars would be bought and sold on condition alone, thereby encouraging owners to get out and use them. Maybe we'd see all those gorgeous GTOs, TDFs, Lussos and F40s out on the road again.

Mileage doesn't come into it on the older cars anyway. Nobody bothers about the mileage when they're buying a 250 SWB or 250 GTO.

Jonathan

[Russell996]

SpeckledJim said:

I suppose so. But regardless of who actually does the clocking, the whole system benefits from it, doesn't it, so long as nobody blows the whistle.

Of course not every Ferrari owner clocks their car. But whether an individual owner does or doesn't, they benefit from whatever clocking was done before they owned it.

And as long as everyone understands the game, I suppose it's not really a problem.

There was me thinking mileage was recorded at each MOT, that at each service the mileage is recorded and that any owner can create an account on Ferrari.com and see the complete service history of their car - I guess it must be just mine where this happens.

[SpeckledJim]

Russell996 said:

SpeckledJim said:

I suppose so. But regardless of who actually does the clocking, the whole system benefits from it, doesn't it, so long as nobody blows the whistle.

Of course not every Ferrari owner clocks their car. But whether an individual owner does or doesn't, they benefit from whatever clocking was done before they owned it.

And as long as everyone understands the game, I suppose it's not really a problem.

There was me thinking mileage was recorded at each MOT, that at each service the mileage is recorded and that any owner can create an account on Ferrari.com and see the complete service history of their car - I guess it must be just mine where this happens.

The recorded mileage is diligently noted at every MOT and service. The point is that the recorded mileage is not necessarily true.

£40 on 'mileage correction' once a year is money very well spent if it keeps £5,000 or £10,000 worth of depreciation off the car.

[anonymous-user]

jtremlett said:

thecook101 said:

It won't happen but think how it be if historic Ferrari mileages were now in so much doubt that they ceased to be a factor in values. Cars would be bought and sold on condition alone, thereby encouraging owners to get out and use them. Maybe we'd see all those gorgeous GTOs, TDFs, Lussos and F40s out on the road again.

Mileage doesn't come into it on the older cars anyway. Nobody bothers about the mileage when they're buying a 250 SWB or 250 GTO.

Jonathan

Not sure I agree but whatever, you get the point right?

[R8Steve]

jtremlett said:

Mileage doesn't come into it on the older cars anyway. Nobody bothers about the mileage when they're buying a 250 SWB or 250 GTO.

Jonathan

So you think a 250 GTO with 1k miles will be the same value as one with 100k miles? I have my doubts.

[sparta6]

jtremlett said:

ileage doesn't come into it on the older cars anyway. Nobody bothers about the mileage when they're buying a 250 SWB or 250 GTO.

Jonathan

+1

The guys I know who operate at this level very rarely mention the word "mileage".
Most have had replacement titanium rods etc. anyway.
It's always condition and provenance

[ferrisbueller]

SpeckledJim said:

ferrisbueller said:

SpeckledJim said:

Nobody wants to buy a 70k 10 year old Ferrari. But that's what they all actually are.

Everybody wants to buy a 30k 10 year old Ferrari. So that's what everyone conspires to create. Owners, dealers, next owners. It's in nobody's interest to rock the boat, and everybody's interest that it continue.

My, that's a broad brush you're wielding there.

I suppose so. But regardless of who actually does the clocking, the whole system benefits from it, doesn't it, so long as nobody blows the whistle.

Of course not every Ferrari owner clocks their car. But whether an individual owner does or doesn't, they benefit from whatever clocking was done before they owned it.

And as long as everyone understands the game, I suppose it's not really a problem.

Again,no. And arguably more ridiculous than the last.

You're basically saying any Ferrari owner is on the fiddle or party to those that are.

With anything there is potential for dishonest people to corrupt the system. However, a low mileage car, or any other, doesn't automatically fall into that category.

[roygarth]

100 IAN said:

Back in the early noughties F40's were circa £150k and all had circa 20k on the clock, there were some with 25-30k on the clock.

Today they're what....£800k and pretty much all have 5-10k on the clock. I can't remember the last time I saw one advertised with 20k miles(!)

Perhaps low mileage ones are crap so people want to get rid of them, but high mileage ones are better and so owners want to keep them....?

....or maybe not!

lol!

The DVLA online MOT History report going back to 2006 is a useful resource when doing your due diligence.

[jtremlett]

R8Steve said:

So you think a 250 GTO with 1k miles will be the same value as one with 100k miles? I have my doubts.

Yes I do think that pretty much. Partly I think that's because no-one believes the mileages on the older cars anyway, partly because, as Sparta6 rightly states above most of these cars will have gone through various rebuilds etc. in their lives. Values of these sorts of cars are about condition, history etc.

roygarth said:

The DVLA online MOT History report going back to 2006 is a useful resource when doing your due diligence.

FWIW I have done some analysis on the MOT data for Ferraris and found very few that had gone backwards and of those that had the vast majority were clearly things like obvious typos (e.g. an extra digit in the mileage). Of course, you might argue that most people falsifying mileages are smart enough to do it so there isn't a digital record showing they have...

Although there is a lot of talk about Ferrari mileages being adjusted backwards, and I have come across some examples, I haven't personally seen any real evidence that it is as widespread as some seem to suggest. A lot of Ferraris really don't get driven that far or that often.

Jonathan

[100 IAN]

roygarth said:

The DVLA online MOT History report going back to 2006 is a useful resource when doing your due diligence.

I completely agree, but cars that come in from overseas are always more difficult to verify....and lots of F40's move between countries do they not(?)

An interesting aside....all the instruments on my F355 stopped working all together last summer, INCLUDING the odometer!!!!

After a bit of exploration it transpired that one of my fuses had blown.

It made me realise how easy it would be for some unscrupulous owner to wire a switch into the electrical feed to the odometer and start/stop it at will.

Buy on condition and buy to use is my advise.

[SpeckledJim]

ferrisbueller said:

SpeckledJim said:

ferrisbueller said:

SpeckledJim said:

Nobody wants to buy a 70k 10 year old Ferrari. But that's what they all actually are.

Everybody wants to buy a 30k 10 year old Ferrari. So that's what everyone conspires to create. Owners, dealers, next owners. It's in nobody's interest to rock the boat, and everybody's interest that it continue.

My, that's a broad brush you're wielding there.

I suppose so. But regardless of who actually does the clocking, the whole system benefits from it, doesn't it, so long as nobody blows the whistle.

Of course not every Ferrari owner clocks their car. But whether an individual owner does or doesn't, they benefit from whatever clocking was done before they owned it.

And as long as everyone understands the game, I suppose it's not really a problem.

Again,no. And arguably more ridiculous than the last.

You're basically saying any Ferrari owner is on the fiddle or party to those that are.

With anything there is potential for dishonest people to corrupt the system. However, a low mileage car, or any other, doesn't automatically fall into that category.

Clearly that's not what I'm saying. Refer to my bold above.

What I'm saying is that this is such a ridiculous 'open secret' that the genuine FSH low miles cars you're referring to are mixed with a crowd of FSH clocked cars to the extent that it's very difficult to tell which is which, and a regular punter is very likely to fall 'victim'. To the extent that you should probably disregard any mileage statement completely, or take it with such a large pinch of salt that you'd throw up.

Who was that chap who did a brilliant piece of research and had graphed the recorded mileages of advertised cars for sale over a long period of time?

If I remember correctly, he'd fairly effectively demonstrated that after a fairly normal and predictable early life, the parc of F355 (or 550, can't remember) out there in the market had changed into a group of cars that on average covered (give-or-take) zero miles per year.

For that to be possible, some of them must be going backwards as much as the others are going forwards.

[ferrisbueller]

SpeckledJim said:

ferrisbueller said:

SpeckledJim said:

ferrisbueller said:

SpeckledJim said:

Nobody wants to buy a 70k 10 year old Ferrari. But that's what they all actually are.

Everybody wants to buy a 30k 10 year old Ferrari. So that's what everyone conspires to create. Owners, dealers, next owners. It's in nobody's interest to rock the boat, and everybody's interest that it continue.

My, that's a broad brush you're wielding there.

I suppose so. But regardless of who actually does the clocking, the whole system benefits from it, doesn't it, so long as nobody blows the whistle.

Of course not every Ferrari owner clocks their car. But whether an individual owner does or doesn't, they benefit from whatever clocking was done before they owned it.

And as long as everyone understands the game, I suppose it's not really a problem.

Again,no. And arguably more ridiculous than the last.

You're basically saying any Ferrari owner is on the fiddle or party to those that are.

With anything there is potential for dishonest people to corrupt the system. However, a low mileage car, or any other, doesn't automatically fall into that category.

Clearly that's not what I'm saying. Refer to my bold above.

What I'm saying is that this is such a ridiculous 'open secret' that the genuine FSH low miles cars you're referring to are mixed with a crowd of FSH clocked cars to the extent that it's very difficult to tell which is which, and a regular punter is very likely to fall 'victim'. To the extent that you should probably disregard any mileage statement completely, or take it with such a large pinch of salt that you'd throw up.

Who was that chap who did a brilliant piece of research and had graphed the recorded mileages of advertised cars for sale over a long period of time?

If I remember correctly, he'd fairly effectively demonstrated that after a fairly normal and predictable early life, the parc of F355 (or 550, can't remember) out there in the market had changed into a group of cars that on average covered (give-or-take) zero miles per year.

For that to be possible, some of them must be going backwards as much as the others are going forwards.

I think that you need to understand, per further up the thread, that clocking is rife in the industry as a whole. And that most, of not all, manufacturers have tools to reset odos for legitimate reasons, such as setting mileage to a correct figure when a display as to be replaced. An example of this I can cite from personal experience is the Renault Scenic which has a fundamental design flaw in the central display which fails and has to be replaced.

Many manufacturers are putting software in place which logs mileage, hours, time in gear etc to help combat this but any car can still be clocked. There will be examples of clocked cars in any sample of make and model. Given the leasing culture we have at present it may be more prevalent than ever. As such I assume you'll be equally indiscriminate in your statements the next time someone posts up a 3-series that has had a trim.

The statement that could be made definitively is that some cars are clocked.

I don't think it could be said that any low mileage car has been clocked or that any mileage figure is worthless. You could advise that a buyer should be more cautious around something with very low miles, but that applies to any marque. I've seen plenty of cars with undeclared accident damage or shoddy repairs for sale in the main dealer network of a number of marques, both mainstream and specialist.

If you look at a car with low miles and no history, then you need to consider that and do your homework accordingly. If you look at a car with folders full of history, MOTs, dealer stamps and invoices which show the miles over time from various reputable sources and have it checked over by a third party with appropriate expertise then you consider that, too.

There are always threads on here with people asking about specific cars and their backgrounds. Quite often ex-owners can be tracked down.

I doubt anyone buys cars such as Ferraris without doing due diligence. You have to have your wits about you buying any used car. FWIW the owners I know personally are not in the business of giving their cars a trim, advocating such actions or having anything but contempt for those who would. Far from benefitting from such actions, it looks more like they're suffering based on your comments.

[ferrisbueller]

jtremlett said:

R8Steve said:

So you think a 250 GTO with 1k miles will be the same value as one with 100k miles? I have my doubts.

Yes I do think that pretty much. Partly I think that's because no-one believes the mileages on the older cars anyway, partly because, as Sparta6 rightly states above most of these cars will have gone through various rebuilds etc. in their lives. Values of these sorts of cars are about condition, history etc.

roygarth said:

The DVLA online MOT History report going back to 2006 is a useful resource when doing your due diligence.

FWIW I have done some analysis on the MOT data for Ferraris and found very few that had gone backwards and of those that had the vast majority were clearly things like obvious typos (e.g. an extra digit in the mileage). Of course, you might argue that most people falsifying mileages are smart enough to do it so there isn't a digital record showing they have...

Although there is a lot of talk about Ferrari mileages being adjusted backwards, and I have come across some examples, I haven't personally seen any real evidence that it is as widespread as some seem to suggest. A lot of Ferraris really don't get driven that far or that often.

Jonathan

Your database is an excellent resource for all. The conspiracy theorists will tell you that the cars have their trim before they are presented for service or MOT and so the figures are always flawed.

[Ali Chappussy]

If you are Mondeo man then the chances are your car has been clocked.

But a Ferrari? FFS, it's beyond belief.