lots of 812 and Pista's for sale
Discussion
430SD_LP640 said:
to qualify an 812 GTS order, one needs to have v12 "Ferrari scores". Having special edition scores is not enough. People bought 812 coupe so they could get a slot of 812 GTS. Yes, they may lose money in 812 coupe but 812 GTS will be trading at a significant premium, which is more than enough to offset the loss. I think 812 coupe price will drop quite meaningfully. many buyers were just not interested in 812 coupe itself. Sadly this is the game you need to play with F - one of very few car OEMs with this strong pricing power.
F seems to change the strategy in the middle of pista production. Initially it was very difficult to get a slot. I was told no initially due to lower F scores (only had 2 normal cars and 2 special cars, of which 3 were new orders and 1 was a used car.). then about six months later, the dealer called back saying they managed to secure a slot of pista for me on condition that it had to be a fully loaded car (i.e. min spending requirement for options), which I really hate. I would have probably specced lots of extra anyway had I decided to order but I hate being told to tick options. Only F does this, which is really really annoying. I did not like the engine sound either so I did not proceed.
As SVJ said above, pista piloti is very rare. It was only offered those who bought a track car before. saw one in Maranello when I dropped my car to do the service. imho, it is a pista with cosmetic changes full of italian flag colours inside and outside...
Time will tell but I'm not convinced the 812 GTS will be trading at a significant premium. Maybe for the first few months but can't see it long term. I think the market has just totally changed. So many new cars coming out. They are pumping out models post IPO and it feels to me like Ferrari will suffer normal car depreciation. The days of losing peanuts on most of their models are gone. F seems to change the strategy in the middle of pista production. Initially it was very difficult to get a slot. I was told no initially due to lower F scores (only had 2 normal cars and 2 special cars, of which 3 were new orders and 1 was a used car.). then about six months later, the dealer called back saying they managed to secure a slot of pista for me on condition that it had to be a fully loaded car (i.e. min spending requirement for options), which I really hate. I would have probably specced lots of extra anyway had I decided to order but I hate being told to tick options. Only F does this, which is really really annoying. I did not like the engine sound either so I did not proceed.
As SVJ said above, pista piloti is very rare. It was only offered those who bought a track car before. saw one in Maranello when I dropped my car to do the service. imho, it is a pista with cosmetic changes full of italian flag colours inside and outside...
430SD_LP640 said:
to qualify an 812 GTS order, one needs to have v12 "Ferrari scores". Having special edition scores is not enough. People bought 812 coupe so they could get a slot of 812 GTS. Yes, they may lose money in 812 coupe but 812 GTS will be trading at a significant premium, which is more than enough to offset the loss. I think 812 coupe price will drop quite meaningfully. many buyers were just not interested in 812 coupe itself. Sadly this is the game you need to play with F - one of very few car OEMs with this strong pricing power.
F seems to change the strategy in the middle of pista production. Initially it was very difficult to get a slot. I was told no initially due to lower F scores (only had 2 normal cars and 2 special cars, of which 3 were new orders and 1 was a used car.). then about six months later, the dealer called back saying they managed to secure a slot of pista for me on condition that it had to be a fully loaded car (i.e. min spending requirement for options), which I really hate. I would have probably specced lots of extra anyway had I decided to order but I hate being told to tick options. Only F does this, which is really really annoying. I did not like the engine sound either so I did not proceed.
As SVJ said above, pista piloti is very rare. It was only offered those who bought a track car before. saw one in Maranello when I dropped my car to do the service. imho, it is a pista with cosmetic changes full of italian flag colours inside and outside...
Not difficult to get an 812 GTS slot and I reckon there will be no premium other than maybe the first few cars - the market has changed.F seems to change the strategy in the middle of pista production. Initially it was very difficult to get a slot. I was told no initially due to lower F scores (only had 2 normal cars and 2 special cars, of which 3 were new orders and 1 was a used car.). then about six months later, the dealer called back saying they managed to secure a slot of pista for me on condition that it had to be a fully loaded car (i.e. min spending requirement for options), which I really hate. I would have probably specced lots of extra anyway had I decided to order but I hate being told to tick options. Only F does this, which is really really annoying. I did not like the engine sound either so I did not proceed.
As SVJ said above, pista piloti is very rare. It was only offered those who bought a track car before. saw one in Maranello when I dropped my car to do the service. imho, it is a pista with cosmetic changes full of italian flag colours inside and outside...
Jon666 said:
Not difficult to get an 812 GTS slot and I reckon there will be no premium other than maybe the first few cars - the market has changed.
You know the market is bad when new Ferrari's aren't selling for premiums. Good time to get a new Ferrari which few months ago would have been impossible. That been said, at some point the market will rebound and it'll be business as usual. It is exactly this type of snobbish discrimination from manufacturers that pisses me off. I have never owned a Ferrari. I never will because I think Ferrari themselves occupy a space way too far up their own backside, but if I wanted to by an 812 GTS or whatever, why should my money not be as acceptable to someone else’s just because they have acquired a certain number of Brand Arse Lick points?
I am sorry, but this is just a manufacturer blowing its own smoke. It was this very attitude of arrogance that Enzo displayed towards Ferrucio during a discussion about clutch improvements on a 250 GTO that resulted in the birth of a far more accessible and far less up their own backside manufacturer of Italian Exotica.
Now, I need tea....
I am sorry, but this is just a manufacturer blowing its own smoke. It was this very attitude of arrogance that Enzo displayed towards Ferrucio during a discussion about clutch improvements on a 250 GTO that resulted in the birth of a far more accessible and far less up their own backside manufacturer of Italian Exotica.
Now, I need tea....
Edited by Superleg48 on Sunday 10th November 18:13
Superleg48 said:
It is exactly this type of snobbish discrimination from manufacturers that pisses me off. I have never owned a Ferrari. I never will because I think Ferrari themselves occupy a space way too far up their own backside, but if I wanted to by an 812 GTS or whatever, why should my money not be as acceptable to someone else’s just because they have acquired a certain number of Brand Arse Lick points?
I am sorry, but this is just a manufacturer blowing its own smoke. It was this very attitude that Enzo displayed towards Ferrucio during a discussion about clutch improvements on a 250 GTO that resulted in the birth of a far more accessible and far less up their own backside manufacturer of Italian Exotica.
Now, I need tea....
Same issue with Porsche and their GT products. I've owned numerous 911's both new and used a few years back but their arse licking regime means I'll never own another Porsche product. Great cars but there's better out there that you can buy without having the piss taken.I am sorry, but this is just a manufacturer blowing its own smoke. It was this very attitude that Enzo displayed towards Ferrucio during a discussion about clutch improvements on a 250 GTO that resulted in the birth of a far more accessible and far less up their own backside manufacturer of Italian Exotica.
Now, I need tea....
Crazy4557 said:
Same issue with Porsche and their GT products. I've owned numerous 911's both new and used a few years back but their arse licking regime means I'll never own another Porsche product. Great cars but there's better out there that you can buy without having the piss taken.
Porsche flooded the North American markets with .2 GT's and it hit the flippers hard because the market for GT's has soften to the point where you can pick up a slightly used GT under MSRP. The Weissach RS is taking the biggest hit. Now does this mean allocation will be easier for the 992, doubtful because dealers are greedy and there's plenty of buyers who will still pay ADM plus Porsche keeps UK allocations tight unless they change their strategy due to market conditions.
marky1 said:
Time will tell but I'm not convinced the 812 GTS will be trading at a significant premium. Maybe for the first few months but can't see it long term. I think the market has just totally changed. So many new cars coming out. They are pumping out models post IPO and it feels to me like Ferrari will suffer normal car depreciation. The days of losing peanuts on most of their models are gone.
depends, the tdf is still trading at near £1,000,000. if it's in limited numbers and the car drives a certain way (just follow the formula of the TDF and make it overpowered and soften the traction control so the motoring press desribes it as a drivers car) then it could well trade at a premium WCZ said:
marky1 said:
Time will tell but I'm not convinced the 812 GTS will be trading at a significant premium. Maybe for the first few months but can't see it long term. I think the market has just totally changed. So many new cars coming out. They are pumping out models post IPO and it feels to me like Ferrari will suffer normal car depreciation. The days of losing peanuts on most of their models are gone.
depends, the tdf is still trading at near £1,000,000. if it's in limited numbers and the car drives a certain way (just follow the formula of the TDF and make it overpowered and soften the traction control so the motoring press desribes it as a drivers car) then it could well trade at a premium highest mileage is 9.5k km on a cart is 3.5 years old - nobody seems to really drive the bloody things
don't really think the GTS will be all that limited, they need to sell cars - so I suspect they will build a lot. Or is it an actual numbers limited car and I missed that info (did not really follow it, apart from thinking it looked quite nice)
MDL111 said:
there are 16 listed on mobile.de - c 800k to 1m Euros (one of them a 140 mile RHD car for 900k euros). I take your point that they are still trading at a substantial premium to list, but they have dropped quite a bit over the last 12 months or so. It also seems they are sticking, so not sure what the clearing price is.
highest mileage is 9.5k km on a cart is 3.5 years old - nobody seems to really drive the bloody things
don't really think the GTS will be all that limited, they need to sell cars - so I suspect they will build a lot. Or is it an actual numbers limited car and I missed that info (did not really follow it, apart from thinking it looked quite nice)
one sold last week at auction for around £900k iirc highest mileage is 9.5k km on a cart is 3.5 years old - nobody seems to really drive the bloody things
don't really think the GTS will be all that limited, they need to sell cars - so I suspect they will build a lot. Or is it an actual numbers limited car and I missed that info (did not really follow it, apart from thinking it looked quite nice)
Superleg48 said:
I am sorry, but this is just a manufacturer blowing its own smoke. It was this very attitude of arrogance that Enzo displayed towards Ferrucio during a discussion about clutch improvements on a 250 GTO that resulted in the birth of a far more accessible and far less up their own backside manufacturer of Italian Exotica.
I thought Ferruccio had earlier Ferraris (250 GT models), which gave him the clutch headaches. He was already launching his own road car when the GTO came out. To be honest I didn’t know Ferruccio even had a GTO.Edited by Superleg48 on Sunday 10th November 18:13
W111AAM said:
Out of curiosity how many cars a year are Ferrari producing and how does this compare to previous years?
About 8k a year...increasing by about 5% a year. I think of more relevance though given the amount of model releases this year and how it’s not pleased people is that they are releasing 15 new cars between 2019 and 2022 (according to their latest results/forecasts). When you think that the existing range is relatively new that’s a lot of special editions/new model lines coming...... WCZ said:
depends, the tdf is still trading at near £1,000,000. if it's in limited numbers and the car drives a certain way (just follow the formula of the TDF and make it overpowered and soften the traction control so the motoring press desribes it as a drivers car) then it could well trade at a premium
I can’t see it being in limited numbers. The 812 VS (Tdf replacement) maybe, but not the GTS. They will be pumping these out. If they sound bad with the GPF which I suspect they will, the residuals may not go how everyone is anticipating. I can really see them reading at list pretty quickly. This is the future of the Ferrari V12...
"The patent describes a way to incorporate two different combustion methods into the engine. One of the strategies involves injecting a small amount of fuel just before the spark plug ignites. Ferrari describes the advantage of this system as increasing the airflow through the combustion chamber and creating a hotter air-fuel mixture. "The catalytic system is therefore very rapidly heated at engine start-up and the emissions, particularly significant in this phase, can be reduced," Ferrari writes in the patent documents
This Ferrari engine adds a pre-chamber that sits above the center of the main combustion chamber, and both of them have their own spark plug. During normal driving, some of the air-fuel mixture enters the pre-chamber, and the spark plug ignites it. "This translates into a rapid combustion with low detonation risk," Ferrari writes.
Conversely, the spark plug in the main combustion chamber operates during startup or low-load conditions. In this mode, the engine operates under spark-coupled injection to heat up the catalytic converter.
A recent report indicates that Ferrari wants to do what's necessary to keep the V12 engine in its lineup. These patent images specifically shot a 12-cylinder powerplant. This suggests the idea in the company's description is one possibility for creating a more efficient version of this potent mill."
https://www.motor1.com/news/378308/ferrari-perform...
"The patent describes a way to incorporate two different combustion methods into the engine. One of the strategies involves injecting a small amount of fuel just before the spark plug ignites. Ferrari describes the advantage of this system as increasing the airflow through the combustion chamber and creating a hotter air-fuel mixture. "The catalytic system is therefore very rapidly heated at engine start-up and the emissions, particularly significant in this phase, can be reduced," Ferrari writes in the patent documents
This Ferrari engine adds a pre-chamber that sits above the center of the main combustion chamber, and both of them have their own spark plug. During normal driving, some of the air-fuel mixture enters the pre-chamber, and the spark plug ignites it. "This translates into a rapid combustion with low detonation risk," Ferrari writes.
Conversely, the spark plug in the main combustion chamber operates during startup or low-load conditions. In this mode, the engine operates under spark-coupled injection to heat up the catalytic converter.
A recent report indicates that Ferrari wants to do what's necessary to keep the V12 engine in its lineup. These patent images specifically shot a 12-cylinder powerplant. This suggests the idea in the company's description is one possibility for creating a more efficient version of this potent mill."
https://www.motor1.com/news/378308/ferrari-perform...
SVJBalboni said:
This is the future of the Ferrari V12...
"The patent describes a way to incorporate two different combustion methods into the engine. One of the strategies involves injecting a small amount of fuel just before the spark plug ignites. Ferrari describes the advantage of this system as increasing the airflow through the combustion chamber and creating a hotter air-fuel mixture. "The catalytic system is therefore very rapidly heated at engine start-up and the emissions, particularly significant in this phase, can be reduced," Ferrari writes in the patent documents
This Ferrari engine adds a pre-chamber that sits above the center of the main combustion chamber, and both of them have their own spark plug. During normal driving, some of the air-fuel mixture enters the pre-chamber, and the spark plug ignites it. "This translates into a rapid combustion with low detonation risk," Ferrari writes.
Conversely, the spark plug in the main combustion chamber operates during startup or low-load conditions. In this mode, the engine operates under spark-coupled injection to heat up the catalytic converter.
A recent report indicates that Ferrari wants to do what's necessary to keep the V12 engine in its lineup. These patent images specifically shot a 12-cylinder powerplant. This suggests the idea in the company's description is one possibility for creating a more efficient version of this potent mill."
https://www.motor1.com/news/378308/ferrari-perform...
I don’t know much about it but an expert on Ferrari chat is saying this is not relevant and was for legislation before the changes coming in 2020. "The patent describes a way to incorporate two different combustion methods into the engine. One of the strategies involves injecting a small amount of fuel just before the spark plug ignites. Ferrari describes the advantage of this system as increasing the airflow through the combustion chamber and creating a hotter air-fuel mixture. "The catalytic system is therefore very rapidly heated at engine start-up and the emissions, particularly significant in this phase, can be reduced," Ferrari writes in the patent documents
This Ferrari engine adds a pre-chamber that sits above the center of the main combustion chamber, and both of them have their own spark plug. During normal driving, some of the air-fuel mixture enters the pre-chamber, and the spark plug ignites it. "This translates into a rapid combustion with low detonation risk," Ferrari writes.
Conversely, the spark plug in the main combustion chamber operates during startup or low-load conditions. In this mode, the engine operates under spark-coupled injection to heat up the catalytic converter.
A recent report indicates that Ferrari wants to do what's necessary to keep the V12 engine in its lineup. These patent images specifically shot a 12-cylinder powerplant. This suggests the idea in the company's description is one possibility for creating a more efficient version of this potent mill."
https://www.motor1.com/news/378308/ferrari-perform...
MDL111 said:
marky1 said:
Cheib said:
Staggering amount of new Ferrari models this year....even the most fervent collector/customer can’t buy and keep all these cars! Disn;t Tom Hartley Jnr have an 812’ that was £100k below list?
It was a Lusso.Edit. and I know this does not have any implication on the original statement quoted
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