What is considered a good deal on a V12 Lusso?

[BrntRubber]

ANOpax said:

Try this for size. The car in the video is an FF but Kline also make a version for the Lusso. Same engine so it’ll sound pretty similar.

https://youtu.be/R70NIzexFOM

I am looking at Kline and Capristo. Novitec seems very pricey for comparable quality.

[BrntRubber]

Taffy66 said:

I had a test drive in a new Lusso V12 last Novembe and was very impressed with the driving and performance..However don't buy one eithe new or even used if depreciation is a concern..They shed money like an autumn oak tree in a hurricane..The point is they seem to keep on losing money forever which has resulted in a very larger dealer bid/sell spread in PX..
Brilliant cars but costly to own..

How’s it going Taffy!?

Regarding the depreciation point, let me know if you guys find my thinking flawed.

1) FF prices have been negatively impacted by the Lusso. New and improved version (I know this is subjective) has further pushed down prices. This wont be the case with the V12 Lusso as this is the last V12 4 seater Ferrari. Going forward it’s the SUV.

2) Good examples of the Lusso are now +£100k off list equating to about 40% to 50% off new. Highly optioned cars are as much as £170k/£180k off list, again 50% off the list.

3) FFs are at £100k/£90k to £140k depending on age and spec. I assume a car that’s 5/6 years old with say 15k miles sells for around £125k/£130k. This my assumption looking at asking prices and I could be wrong.

Based on the above, if someone is able to buy a well looked after V12 Lusso (say almost new 2018 or 2019) for £170k/£180k it should be worth somewhere around £130k/£140k in 4 years.

Is my thinking flawed guys?

[Taffy66]

The thing to remember with Ferraris as opposed to Porsches is that the Ferrari main dealers work on very large margins between bid and sell..As a result they are in no particular hurry to sell a car within the normal 3 month period and are quite content to keep a nice Ferrari in stock for up to two years.
A high specced Lusso at say 40% discount to its new list is a tremendous amount of car for the money ie £300k list for £180K used..The V12 Lusso has a special feeling about it but make sure to spec the Panoramic roof..They sell better in one of the Blues or Greys however after seeing one in Bianco Fuji in Monaco last summer white is now my fav colour on the Lusso..Bianco Avus(flat white) is nearly as good but not as classy as Fuji..
If you buy a Lusso the you need to think about keeping it a couple of years to even out the bid/sell spread.As cars i loved the one i drove and still considering buying one at some point after i decide what i have to sell to raise the funds..

[Taffy66]

Here is a Lusso T in a very rare metallic Bianco Italia..
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

Here is a well priced V12 Lusso.
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...

[MDL111]

BrntRubber said:

Taffy66 said:

I had a test drive in a new Lusso V12 last Novembe and was very impressed with the driving and performance..However don't buy one eithe new or even used if depreciation is a concern..They shed money like an autumn oak tree in a hurricane..The point is they seem to keep on losing money forever which has resulted in a very larger dealer bid/sell spread in PX..
Brilliant cars but costly to own..

How’s it going Taffy!?

Regarding the depreciation point, let me know if you guys find my thinking flawed.

1) FF prices have been negatively impacted by the Lusso. New and improved version (I know this is subjective) has further pushed down prices. This wont be the case with the V12 Lusso as this is the last V12 4 seater Ferrari. Going forward it’s the SUV.

2) Good examples of the Lusso are now +£100k off list equating to about 40% to 50% off new. Highly optioned cars are as much as £170k/£180k off list, again 50% off the list.

3) FFs are at £100k/£90k to £140k depending on age and spec. I assume a car that’s 5/6 years old with say 15k miles sells for around £125k/£130k. This my assumption looking at asking prices and I could be wrong.

Based on the above, if someone is able to buy a well looked after V12 Lusso (say almost new 2018 or 2019) for £170k/£180k it should be worth somewhere around £130k/£140k in 4 years.

Is my thinking flawed guys?

Probably not necessarily flawed but I would work on the assumption that it will half in value over the next 4 years and then over the next 4 years loose another say 30k. Once they hit 50-60k they will probably stabilise, but it will be a very slow market with cars sitting long times before selling. The warranty is 4K ish a year and doesn't cover everything (pretty much a must have though due to gearbox and 4RM), as a result not many people will want to buy them. 4-seater Ferraris are not what somebody in the 50-80k bracket aspires to as his - often - first Ferrari.
Love the cars and have done c 70k km over the last 4.5 years in my FF, but as Taffy says they will very likely continue to depreciate at a not insubstantial rate
Good luck

[BrntRubber]

Taffy66 said:

The thing to remember with Ferraris as opposed to Porsches is that the Ferrari main dealers work on very large margins between bid and sell..As a result they are in no particular hurry to sell a car within the normal 3 month period and are quite content to keep a nice Ferrari in stock for up to two years.
A high specced Lusso at say 40% discount to its new list is a tremendous amount of car for the money ie £300k list for £180K used..The V12 Lusso has a special feeling about it but make sure to spec the Panoramic roof..They sell better in one of the Blues or Greys however after seeing one in Bianco Fuji in Monaco last summer white is now my fav colour on the Lusso..Bianco Avus(flat white) is nearly as good but not as classy as Fuji..
If you buy a Lusso the you need to think about keeping it a couple of years to even out the bid/sell spread.As cars i loved the one i drove and still considering buying one at some point after i decide what i have to sell to raise the funds..

Bianco Fuji is my favourite white of all manufacturers, you have good and very similar taste to me. Bianco Avus is also a killer colour.

I agree it needs to be held for a couple years. How big is the dealer markup typically with Ferrari from the trade in value? Knowing the markup would help my negotiated.

I have 2 cars in my sights, one virtually new, I would like to pick your brain on Taffy.

I have sent you an email, but it’s a large file size. If it doesn’t show up please let me know.

Thanks

Edited by BrntRubber on Saturday 22 February 15:24

[footsoldier]

Imo, V12s will be at £130/140 this time next year.

[BrntRubber]

footsoldier said:

Imo, V12s will be at £130/140 this time next year.

Is that for an almost new car? Say a 2019 with nice spec at say 3,000 miles? If so that’s a big drop.

[Taffy66]

Personally i use various rules of thumbs to decide on my car purchases both new and used..If depreciation is a big concern then comparing to new cost(not new list as huge discounts distort) i like to buy at circa 55% used..I feel when you go to 50% or less you end up buying something with either too many miles, poor spec or both..
Speaking to my driving instructor last December about Lussos and as he'd driven all versions extensively..His firm favourite was the RWD Lusso T V8 as it handled better, was much more economical and the low to mid range torque suited the nature of the car..The V12 needs to revved hard to give its best and the extra 50kg at the front makes it less agile than the T..Also no worries about the front drive PTU which are prone to fail albeit rarely.
I really like the Bianca Fuji Lusso T i highlighted above and at £140k not a bad buy IMO..Jeremy Clarkson also love the Lusso T despite feeling the complete opposite on the V12 Lusso.
I's drive the T and V12 back to back to see first hand which you prefer as the allure of a 6.3L V12 can be one sided.

[garystoybox]

I’m flabbergasted anybody would ever buy a V8 Lusso in the uk. I thought it was only really released for markets with huge tax on V12’s? How many seconds would it take on startup before the regret of not hearing that marvellous V12, particularly when the used price is roughly the same and you get 4 wheel drive thrown in?
I’m sorely tempted to buy one of these to add to the garage next year... going to be a wonderful long term buy at c£125k.

[BrntRubber]

garystoybox said:

I’m flabbergasted anybody would ever buy a V8 Lusso in the uk. I thought it was only really released for markets with huge tax on V12’s? How many seconds would it take on startup before the regret of not hearing that marvellous V12, particularly when the used price is roughly the same and you get 4 wheel drive thrown in?
I’m sorely tempted to buy one of these to add to the garage next year... going to be a wonderful long term buy at c£125k.

I am struggling to see how these are going to be trading at £125k/£130k next year, unless the car has mega miles on it and is a 2017 which means no more warranty unless the power warranty is added.

I must be missing something here, but losing £50k plus in 1 year would be brutal.

Edited by BrntRubber on Saturday 22 February 19:09

[ANOpax]

MDL111 said:

Probably not necessarily flawed but I would work on the assumption that it will half in value over the next 4 years and then over the next 4 years loose another say 30k. Once they hit 50-60k they will probably stabilise, but it will be a very slow market with cars sitting long times before selling. The warranty is 4K ish a year and doesn't cover everything (pretty much a must have though due to gearbox and 4RM), as a result not many people will want to buy them. 4-seater Ferraris are not what somebody in the 50-80k bracket aspires to as his - often - first Ferrari.
Love the cars and have done c 70k km over the last 4.5 years in my FF, but as Taffy says they will very likely continue to depreciate at a not insubstantial rate
Good luck

I think you’re being a bit bearish. Even FFs haven’t hit 50-60k and I don’t think they will (barring a recession). FFs and Lussos won’t trade at a discount to 612s for the same reason that 458s won’t trade at a discount to F430s.

[MDL111]

ANOpax said:

MDL111 said:

Probably not necessarily flawed but I would work on the assumption that it will half in value over the next 4 years and then over the next 4 years loose another say 30k. Once they hit 50-60k they will probably stabilise, but it will be a very slow market with cars sitting long times before selling. The warranty is 4K ish a year and doesn't cover everything (pretty much a must have though due to gearbox and 4RM), as a result not many people will want to buy them. 4-seater Ferraris are not what somebody in the 50-80k bracket aspires to as his - often - first Ferrari.
Love the cars and have done c 70k km over the last 4.5 years in my FF, but as Taffy says they will very likely continue to depreciate at a not insubstantial rate
Good luck

I think you’re being a bit bearish. Even FFs haven’t hit 50-60k and I don’t think they will (barring a recession). FFs and Lussos won’t trade at a discount to 612s for the same reason that 458s won’t trade at a discount to F430s.

Probably a bit bearish, but the higher mileage FFs in Germany are already at the 100k euro mark, so not much more to fall to be at say 60k sterling. I wouldn’t want to bank on mine being worth more than 70k euros in 2 years time (10 years old then) with c 100k km on the clock.

The 612 is a more classical shape and a lot less complicated (and those traded in the 40s a few years ago, the 456 was in the 20s not so long ago, so not sure I would bet the house on FF/Lusso sticking to the higher double digits in perpetuity).

They have been dropping a lot while Ferraris (and other cars) that are bought as weekend toys have held up amazingly well, so what happens if the market correction accelerates a little more - 130k 720S or 130k Lusso is a no-brainer imo if not talking daily driver with luggage/people/4wd requirements as much as I love my car

[Cheib]

Maybe not so unrealistic. This FF hammered at £71k this afternoon against an estimate of £85 to £105k....

Seller would have got what £60k to £65k?

https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/events/2020-au...

This 612 One to One was advertised originally at £109k which looked cheap/aggressive compared to anything else on the market and a great spec car. Didn’t sell so they’ve put the price up....my guess is they got so little interest they decided they were screwing their own market so put the price up hoping for spring to bring higher prices.

https://www.dkeng.co.uk/ferrari-sales/1148/prestig...

[MDL111]

Cheib said:

Maybe not so unrealistic. This FF hammered at £71k this afternoon against an estimate of £85 to £105k....

Seller would have got what £60k to £65k?

https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/events/2020-au...

This 612 One to One was advertised originally at £109k which looked cheap/aggressive compared to anything else on the market and a great spec car. Didn’t sell so they’ve put the price up....my guess is they got so little interest they decided they were screwing their own market so put the price up hoping for spring to bring higher prices.

https://www.dkeng.co.uk/ferrari-sales/1148/prestig...

Uhh very jealous of whoever bought that 348 GTC at 130k - that is lovely and a true numbers limited car of which you will likely never see a second one crossing your path. Looks brand new after the restoration
Looks like a lot of (likely expensive) cars did not sell and quite a few lower priced ones as well

[BrntRubber]

Cheib said:

Maybe not so unrealistic. This FF hammered at £71k this afternoon against an estimate of £85 to £105k....

Seller would have got what £60k to £65k?

https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/events/2020-au...

This 612 One to One was advertised originally at £109k which looked cheap/aggressive compared to anything else on the market and a great spec car. Didn’t sell so they’ve put the price up....my guess is they got so little interest they decided they were screwing their own market so put the price up hoping for spring to bring higher prices.

https://www.dkeng.co.uk/ferrari-sales/1148/prestig...

If any of the cars I was looking at was worth £80k after 9 years, that would be a good result. That’s only approx £10k a year of depreciation.

[MDL111]

I think then you should be fine, obviously in the beginning it will depreciate a little more. I think I posted up the figures for my car (either in this thread or another one) as a comp

List in April 2012 c 330k
I bought it in August 2015 with 11.6k km on the clock for 180k
Now at c. 78k km it is probably c. 100k-105k asking price, therefore realistically imo more like 90k if I want to sell

If I understand it correctly you would be getting a newer and lower mileage car for about the same money (maybe a little more), so your residual value should be higher than mine even if you drove it the same mileage

[BrntRubber]

MDL111 said:

I think then you should be fine, obviously in the beginning it will depreciate a little more. I think I posted up the figures for my car (either in this thread or another one) as a comp

List in April 2012 c 330k
I bought it in August 2015 with 11.6k km on the clock for 180k
Now at c. 78k km it is probably c. 100k-105k asking price, therefore realistically imo more like 90k if I want to sell

If I understand it correctly you would be getting a newer and lower mileage car for about the same money (maybe a little more), so your residual value should be higher than mine even if you drove it the same mileage

Thanks for chiming in. I won’t put more than 2k miles a year on her ok average.

[Cheib]

BrntRubber said:

If any of the cars I was looking at was worth £80k after 9 years, that would be a good result. That’s only approx £10k a year of depreciation.

I think there are a couple of problem with that long term view...from say 2013 to 2017 we had a crazy car market where deprecation almost didn’t exist so I think we can reasonably expect to see cars experience greater deprecation over the next 7 or 8 years than the previous 7 or 8. And, of course, we have the spectre of emissions and what that means in the future. I can see there still being enthusiasts wanting a 2 seater ICE Ferrari as a weekend fun car in 8 years time but struggle to see the same for a 4 seater.

[BrntRubber]

What a phenomenal car! Weather was nice this morning and got to push her on a test drive.

Deposit placed on the 2019 with 600 miles. Almost 40% off. I am a happy man!

Thank you all for the help!

Now I just need to find someone to sort me out with a Capristo exhaust for a good price.