Every day tips for living with a 599

[cake eater]

Cheburator mk2 said:

cake eater said:

A Ferrarichat person has suggested that the LSD is the same as used on older Porsches. I quick internet search suggests that Porsche used ZF differentials up to 2006.
Next door to MDL is https://www.cmsporsche.co.uk/ so will check with them also.
The Modena Engineering one is a different design and unlikely to be interchangeable.

What is actually wrong with the LSD? I See a broken washer and some marks on the cassette, but the photos are a bit meh...

ZF make most of the classic plates based LSDs for the likes of Porsche, BMW, MB etc. That doesn't mean they are interchangeable at will. While clutch plates from certain older models BMW will fit certain older Porsche models, that's where the commonality ends. Cassettes are different, ramp angles are different, dog washers have different thickness etc. Guards in the US should be on your contact list as well as Racing Diffs in Serbia... Between them, they have forgotten more about LSDs than ZF ever knew....

I'll get in touch with racing diffs, they came up in a Google search also. I don't know anything about LSDs so defer to the greater knowledge.

[cake eater]

Joscal said:

Hughesie said:

SBR might do it (Aylesbury), I would use Autofficina (Epsom), Elias who owns them has had multiple 599's and looks aftermany and knows them inside out !.

Excellent thanks Autofficina sound perfect, I ll try them!

Appreciate it Hughsie, I m pretty up to speed with Porsche but am a bit lost in Ferrari land.

Factory HGTE is is great as well as the history but I'd go with Hughesie's recommendation for independent inspection.

[cake eater]

cake eater said:

Cheburator mk2 said:

cake eater said:

A Ferrarichat person has suggested that the LSD is the same as used on older Porsches. I quick internet search suggests that Porsche used ZF differentials up to 2006.
Next door to MDL is https://www.cmsporsche.co.uk/ so will check with them also.
The Modena Engineering one is a different design and unlikely to be interchangeable.

What is actually wrong with the LSD? I See a broken washer and some marks on the cassette, but the photos are a bit meh...

ZF make most of the classic plates based LSDs for the likes of Porsche, BMW, MB etc. That doesn't mean they are interchangeable at will. While clutch plates from certain older models BMW will fit certain older Porsche models, that's where the commonality ends. Cassettes are different, ramp angles are different, dog washers have different thickness etc. Guards in the US should be on your contact list as well as Racing Diffs in Serbia... Between them, they have forgotten more about LSDs than ZF ever knew....

I'll get in touch with racing diffs, they came up in a Google search also. I don't know anything about LSDs so defer to the greater knowledge.

Lee cleaned up the LSD for some nice clear pictures of the damage.














I've said to Lee that I'm worried about where all that metal has gone and what damage it is lurking around to do next.

Wonder what causes this failure?

[Joscal]

cake eater said:

Factory HGTE is is great as well as the history but I'd go with Hughesie's recommendation for independent inspection.

Thanks, I’ve been looking for a few months and one had a later history with them but it didn’t mean anything to me so great to know.

Appreciate it.

[White-Noise]

cake eater said:

I want to go to blister berg! Looks a crazy track!
Try this website for Europe trackdays
https://all4track.de/
Or
https://www.openpitlane.de/

Colin at CDT is the best car skills instructor I have ever had. His ability to understand what you're doing to upset the car and communicate to you in a way that you understand is amazing. My trail braking, steering and vision improved so much with him at I love his 'at grip limit' course, basically drifting


What racing have you done? I found different clubs had different levels and the jump from club to back of the pack at national level huge. Then Europe was a different story again!

I agreed about chasing 1/10ths but there's so many corners to gain in the braking zone and so many bumps where I'm feathering the throttle or adjusting the line that I think over a lap I've got seconds I can make up.

I raced karts with club 100. I was at their clubman level so second tier. Some of the guys from the top level I knew went on to win championships at national and European level. I had aspirations to race tin tops but my desire has backed off in recent years.

I also think with racing there is a further level I just seem to be missing, some of the others had over 20 years more experience than I did! And it showed. There seemed to be 2 or 3 tenths missing over a lap. I really appreciate professionals now, there is a magic to speed.

If you think you have seconds to make up then there is definitely time to be had. Maybe a bit of racing would help you find that edge again. Until you're next to other fast drivers I think it's so hard to get a measure. Even c100 might help you with that feel.

Id be too scared of going wrong at the ring to do that you're doing. I leave all the driver aids on there, do you?

I was looking at your LSD photos above it looks like it's been eaten by something I wonder how it gets that sort of damage. Best of luck with it

[928 GTS]

cake eater said:

Wonder what causes this failure?

If there aren't signs of overheating or high wear on bearings its likely just weak material used to make that individual part. Testarossa etc. problem is caused by welding parts together. Failure on weld will result gearbox casing to ultimately crack unless its caught on time.

This seems to be single piece part. There shouldn't be any huge forces going through failure point. Its basically holding bearing in place while actual force goes through its center to axle mounting flange. There is small preload on the bearings at both ends of the assembly but its in direction which is opposite to failure direction. Actual torque from engine to wheels of course affects everything inside the box. But I don't think it explains this if there are no signs of running low on oil or something else abnormal.

I'm guessing material is just too thin at point where it failed. Real fix is to make same dimensions part from stronger material.

[Cheburator mk2]

928 GTS said:

If there aren't signs of overheating or high wear on bearings its likely just weak material used to make that individual part. Testarossa etc. problem is caused by welding parts together. Failure on weld will result gearbox casing to ultimately crack unless its caught on time.

This seems to be single piece part. There shouldn't be any huge forces going through failure point. Its basically holding bearing in place while actual force goes through its center to axle mounting flange. There is small preload on the bearings at both ends of the assembly but its in direction which is opposite to failure direction. Actual torque from engine to wheels of course affects everything inside the box. But I don't think it explains this if there are no signs of running low on oil or something else abnormal.

I'm guessing material is just too thin at point where it failed. Real fix is to make same dimensions part from stronger material.

Agreed a 100%...

The good news is that the internal cooling pump has a pretty decent strainer, so, it's unlikely that anything big has gone where it should not. If it had, you would have known about it... The gearbox is easy to strip anyway...

[White-Noise]

Cheburator mk2 said:

928 GTS said:

If there aren't signs of overheating or high wear on bearings its likely just weak material used to make that individual part. Testarossa etc. problem is caused by welding parts together. Failure on weld will result gearbox casing to ultimately crack unless its caught on time.

This seems to be single piece part. There shouldn't be any huge forces going through failure point. Its basically holding bearing in place while actual force goes through its center to axle mounting flange. There is small preload on the bearings at both ends of the assembly but its in direction which is opposite to failure direction. Actual torque from engine to wheels of course affects everything inside the box. But I don't think it explains this if there are no signs of running low on oil or something else abnormal.

I'm guessing material is just too thin at point where it failed. Real fix is to make same dimensions part from stronger material.

Agreed a 100%...

The good news is that the internal cooling pump has a pretty decent strainer, so, it's unlikely that anything big has gone where it should not. If it had, you would have known about it... The gearbox is easy to strip anyway...

The knowledge on this forum is brilliant. Are you guys mechanics, engineers?

[cake eater]

White-Noise said:

I raced karts with club 100. I was at their clubman level so second tier. Some of the guys from the top level I knew went on to win championships at national and European level. I had aspirations to race tin tops but my desire has backed off in recent years.

I also think with racing there is a further level I just seem to be missing, some of the others had over 20 years more experience than I did! And it showed. There seemed to be 2 or 3 tenths missing over a lap. I really appreciate professionals now, there is a magic to speed.

If you think you have seconds to make up then there is definitely time to be had. Maybe a bit of racing would help you find that edge again. Until you're next to other fast drivers I think it's so hard to get a measure. Even c100 might help you with that feel.

Id be too scared of going wrong at the ring to do that you're doing. I leave all the driver aids on there, do you?

I was looking at your LSD photos above it looks like it's been eaten by something I wonder how it gets that sort of damage. Best of luck with it

Club100 is a great series and highly competitive.

Any kind of racing is just difficult with work. Max I can do is 5 weekends in a year. Spend the weekend crashing and getting up to speed by the Sunday then off to work to miss everyone getting faster and trying to catch up in a weekend. Age and missing work through injury is also more and more of a problem. Just can't afford to.

I keep getting told to turn TC off. I have at Spa and Donington, where I believe I have room to make a mistake.

For the Nurburgring, nope. Never have it off and all the ring instructors I've had say leave it on.

[cake eater]

White-Noise said:

Cheburator mk2 said:

928 GTS said:

If there aren't signs of overheating or high wear on bearings its likely just weak material used to make that individual part. Testarossa etc. problem is caused by welding parts together. Failure on weld will result gearbox casing to ultimately crack unless its caught on time.

This seems to be single piece part. There shouldn't be any huge forces going through failure point. Its basically holding bearing in place while actual force goes through its center to axle mounting flange. There is small preload on the bearings at both ends of the assembly but its in direction which is opposite to failure direction. Actual torque from engine to wheels of course affects everything inside the box. But I don't think it explains this if there are no signs of running low on oil or something else abnormal.

I'm guessing material is just too thin at point where it failed. Real fix is to make same dimensions part from stronger material.

Agreed a 100%...

The good news is that the internal cooling pump has a pretty decent strainer, so, it's unlikely that anything big has gone where it should not. If it had, you would have known about it... The gearbox is easy to strip anyway...

The knowledge on this forum is brilliant. Are you guys mechanics, engineers?

I have asked Lee to check everything the oil has touched. Any filters will need replacing.

Material quality is not something I can fix. Nenad at racingdiffs has said he doesn't have replacement parts. He has said that he has patterned parts for R8s that thave suffered similarly.

Oil in the gearbox is changed regularly, like you I've not seen evidence of heat damage ( no bluing or blackening of the steel) but for sure it runs hot around there. GTO has a bigger cooler I believe. One previous gearbox oil change the oil came out like water. A precursor maybe?

[Thom]

928 GTS said:

I'm guessing material is just too thin at point where it failed. Real fix is to make same dimensions part from stronger material.

I couldn't agree more. We are probably seeing here one of the limits of tracking such a heavy car.
The part does not seem very complicated and should not be too difficult to machine from billet steel.

There are two part numbers for the LSD, is it the earlier or the later one in your car?

Edited by Thom on Saturday 1st November 08:47

[White-Noise]

cake eater said:

Club100 is a great series and highly competitive.

Any kind of racing is just difficult with work. Max I can do is 5 weekends in a year. Spend the weekend crashing and getting up to speed by the Sunday then off to work to miss everyone getting faster and trying to catch up in a weekend. Age and missing work through injury is also more and more of a problem. Just can't afford to.

I keep getting told to turn TC off. I have at Spa and Donington, where I believe I have room to make a mistake.

For the Nurburgring, nope. Never have it off and all the ring instructors I've had say leave it on.

That's fair enough. Getting injured is a real risk especially the old ribs.

Don't suppose you have any GoPro footage of your on track?

[cake eater]

Thom said:

928 GTS said:

I'm guessing material is just too thin at point where it failed. Real fix is to make same dimensions part from stronger material.

I couldn't agree more. We are probably seeing here one of the limits of tracking such a heavy car.
The part does not seem very complicated and should not be too difficult to machine from billet steel.

There are two part numbers for the LSD, is it the earlier or the later one in your car?

Edited by Thom on Saturday 1st November 08:47

2008 car. Not sure which one.

[cake eater]

White-Noise said:

cake eater said:

Club100 is a great series and highly competitive.

Any kind of racing is just difficult with work. Max I can do is 5 weekends in a year. Spend the weekend crashing and getting up to speed by the Sunday then off to work to miss everyone getting faster and trying to catch up in a weekend. Age and missing work through injury is also more and more of a problem. Just can't afford to.

I keep getting told to turn TC off. I have at Spa and Donington, where I believe I have room to make a mistake.

For the Nurburgring, nope. Never have it off and all the ring instructors I've had say leave it on.

That's fair enough. Getting injured is a real risk especially the old ribs.

Don't suppose you have any GoPro footage of your on track?

I have a few clips in the 599 and caterham. Nothing at the Nurburgring as I don't want to subconsciously play for the camera. I've the same concerns with the lap timer.

[cake eater]

cake eater said:

Thom said:

928 GTS said:

I'm guessing material is just too thin at point where it failed. Real fix is to make same dimensions part from stronger material.

I couldn't agree more. We are probably seeing here one of the limits of tracking such a heavy car.
The part does not seem very complicated and should not be too difficult to machine from billet steel.

There are two part numbers for the LSD, is it the earlier or the later one in your car?

Edited by Thom on Saturday 1st November 08:47

2008 car. Not sure which one.

I have had a couple of replies from ZF.





Confirmation that they will not supply parts and that the failure method they suspect is launching the car (my interpretation)

I have never launched the car, the LSD was rebuilt with new clutch plates a couple years ago with no other wear observed at the time.

So most probably a function of track work, the wider grippier tyres and age

[Cheburator mk2]

cake eater said:

I have never launched the car, the LSD was rebuilt with new clutch plates a couple years ago with no other wear observed at the time.

So most probably a function of track work, the wider grippier tyres and age

Disagree - the Maserati GranTursimo GT4 used pretty much the same LSD with full on slicks. The cassette is subject to loads your LSD can only dream of and yet, Maserati Corse don’t life the LSD nor there is a technical bulletin on it. I would call your problem a case of bad luck. Have you spoken to Guard in the US?

[cake eater]

Cheburator mk2 said:

Disagree - the Maserati GranTursimo GT4 used pretty much the same LSD with full on slicks. The cassette is subject to loads your LSD can only dream of and yet, Maserati Corse don t life the LSD nor there is a technical bulletin on it. I would call your problem a case of bad luck. Have you spoken to Guard in the US?

Bad luck? No, not spoken to Guard.

https://www.guardtransmissionllc.com/products/limi...

I see they specialise in Porsche, I'll ask if they have a solution for the 599.

[Cheburator mk2]

cake eater said:

Bad luck? No, not spoken to Guard.

https://www.guardtransmissionllc.com/products/limi...

I see they specialise in Porsche, I'll ask if they have a solution for the 599.

Bad luck as in maybe there was a metallurgical defect in the component and it failed where the defect was present. The Ring isn’t particularly harsh on LSDs as you know. It flows beautifully and there aren’t many massive sudden accel/decel zones or changes of direction. The transaxle is also cooled thus I keep thinking that your failure mode is a one off and not a design deficiency. Given their own test track and race know how, you would have expected Ferrari to have done their homework. This part was already proven on the 612…

I mentioned Guards because when Porsche Motorsport dropped the ball and stopped supplying those of us with older GT cars with the necessary LSD spares, Guards stepped up to the plate with superior products. They offer options which weren’t originally present - different lock up rates, ramp angles etc They maybe interested in expanding their product portfolio…

[cake eater]

Cheburator mk2 said:

cake eater said:

Bad luck? No, not spoken to Guard.

https://www.guardtransmissionllc.com/products/limi...

I see they specialise in Porsche, I'll ask if they have a solution for the 599.

Bad luck as in maybe there was a metallurgical defect in the component and it failed where the defect was present. The Ring isn t particularly harsh on LSDs as you know. It flows beautifully and there aren t many massive sudden accel/decel zones or changes of direction. The transaxle is also cooled thus I keep thinking that your failure mode is a one off and not a design deficiency. Given their own test track and race know how, you would have expected Ferrari to have done their homework. This part was already proven on the 612

I mentioned Guards because when Porsche Motorsport dropped the ball and stopped supplying those of us with older GT cars with the necessary LSD spares, Guards stepped up to the plate with superior products. They offer options which weren t originally present - different lock up rates, ramp angles etc They maybe interested in expanding their product portfolio

I was surprised when I had the reply from ZF that they didn't ask to see the part or have any traceability on it. I guess it is long out of warranty and been superceded by a newer design (hence the later part number being available). I asked Lee about putting the GTO LSD in and he said it's the same part.

I don't think there's too big a market for Ferrari but I'm hopeful. In my searches, I have been seeing lots of aftermarket support for Porsche and BMW, very little for Ferrari. Maybe my search terms don't help? I've tried chatgpt but their results are worse than mine. So I very much appreciate your suggestions

Edited by cake eater on Saturday 8th November 21:49

[Hughesie]

cake eater said:

very little for Ferrari.

Ferrari don't care about us keeping the old ones on the road, just the latest and greatest !