F12 Berlinetta

Author
Discussion

MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Friday 1st July
quotequote all
jwdh1 said:
Curledge said:
Sounds like underwriting is toughening up which could slow supercar sales and cool prices.
Q4 could be a good time to be sitting on some cash to bag a bargain
strange, I read the story as an episode of "underwriter doesn't understand the basics of a consultant paying themselves through a ltd company structure" rather than anything to do with markets.

You've been sat on that bag of cash for a while now Curledge, surprised you haven't got piles.
Not the underwriter, the clerk at the broker hasn’t even submitted them because he doesn’t seem to understand that a asset funder would much rather see consultancy fees VAT invoices with monthly numbers that would buy a respectable family car than ‘wage slips’ - and of it was the latter i’d be surprised if they have any customers.

You don’t get Ferrari F12’s earning ‘wages’.

Regarding Curledge point, if the funder rejects a deal with 43 percent deposit of 76k and only 100k exposure on a F12 with a £650 monthly payment on a base income with multiples over the value of the lend then we are in 08 territory and in for a world of pain.

The monthly then is only 150 more than i’m paying which isn’t even a decent bottle of vintage wine let alone a tank of fuel.

It costs more a month to buy an M3 - without 76k of equity buffer.

What a fiasco.

Only positive is from next month I’ll have been dragged inside IR35 at a big 4 accountancy firm, so i’ll have ‘wage slips’ to buy a nice PCP European stbox through Evolution.


MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Friday 1st July
quotequote all
I’ll be honest though, if this really is a 08 style credit squeeze caused by QT then tbh I’m not sure I want to exit my 458. I can likely just short the market and then fund a F12 for cash on the gains in the ensuing bloodbath if Curledge is right.

At the moment I have 3 years locked in at last years interest rates, 497 a month with 95k on the tab for my 458 spider is basically free Ferrari motoring given I have that money locked in BTC longs that will settle the whole deal on the gain.

To continue with this I’ll have exited a very good deal on a very nice 458, locked up more money that I could be buying the dip with into the F12 and paying more interest - and if credit does freeze may have to wait longer to get back in a 458.

Possibly more sensible to leave the 458 open, keep all the deposit fund invested with a modest 2x to 3x leverage, wait for the market and then cash it out and settle the 458 & fund the F12.

Assuming I don’t get covid, nuked by Putin or catch monkeypox, this just requires another 6 months patience as it’s going to be pointless buying a F12 into winter when we get snowed in and the only thing that will get out my drive is the RS4.




MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Friday 1st July
quotequote all
But then I really want a F12.

Will throw another 20k plus in the pot and give them one more go. If they can’t deal on those terms then I’m taking the 458 Spider to Lake Como for a month off and to hell with it.

MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Friday 1st July
quotequote all
Curledge said:
Sounds like underwriting is toughening up which could slow supercar sales and cool prices.
Q4 could be a good time to be sitting on some cash to bag a bargain
From what I’ve heard it is, judging by the amount of influencers who suddenly got early GT3 / Touring allocations and the fact the 458/F12 market which was red hot last year is barely moving I’ve heard a lot more people are being declined on deals that would have been done last year. Tom Hartley was on a recent car dealer podcast and he said inquiries dropped by 50 percent when Ukraine kicked off, and funding has gone from 24-48 hours to 2 plus weeks. He is predicting a big market correction and given his length of time in the market he rarely is wrong.

I certainly wouldn’t be in a 458 Speciale at 370k now - the reason I went for a 13 car at 175 not a 15 at 205 is I can see an easy 30 percent drop on the table if lending freezes up based on the impact JBR closing early pandemic had on prices and deal flow.

It’s now a question of the inflation drives hard asset prices and there is enough cash liquidity to soak up the inventory coming back off the covid Lease Purchase binge as they reach term

But ‘one swallow does not a summer make’ - so i’m not basing my market appraisal on my single deal problems but watching broader market for time on market for cars that show a slow down in deal flow is coming.

MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Friday 1st July
quotequote all
jwdh1 said:
MisterBigglesworth said:
But then I really want a F12.

Will throw another 20k plus in the pot and give them one more go. If they can’t deal on those terms then I’m taking the 458 Spider to Lake Como for a month off and to hell with it.
Can you not just bin Evolution and use C&D? Wouldn't waste my time on who you are using at the moment to be honest, they sound like a bunch of auto-cue reading muppets, which as you say, doesn't really fit with bespoke finance.
Think that could get political as C&D won’t want to get embroiled in a poaching fight with another broker who will want to claim the introducer fee in front of funders who they work hard to build good relationships with.

My original understanding was that we would prop it to Ferrari and if they didn’t want the deal then I would pass it to Mike @ C&D to arrange, but the first nod I got that Evo was involved was a email from Harry to say that they had sent it to them and they already had done the Aldermore hard search before I was able to get Mike on the case, so kind of not happy it got passed to Evo without my authority, can see how DL thought they were being helpful in getting funding, but I never would have agreed to them brokering it.

As it is Evo will have an open proposal with Aldermore (unless they declined due to lack of paperwork) and they shopped it to the other outfit. But the hard search is done and Evo will want to claim the introducer fee on any deal I’m sure, so the only clean exit is to can the deal, let the dust settle and search wear off then have Mike in charge of a new deal on another car so Evo can’t stick their noses in the commission trough.

It’s going to be a damage limitation exercise to preserve my funding relationship for the future here that I’m not responsible for putting a half baked finance app in.

Would leave a very bad taste in my mouth that Evo would get paid anything on this deal because they haven’t justified their commission at all, and C&D really do work for their money not just palm it off to some minimum wage clerk in a Northern call centre body shop.

Kind of surprised DL would even use them as a secondary broker - they are so far off the personal underwriter experience of FFS or JB`in private client management this whole example shows how a supplier can take a wrecking ball to all the work they do in creating a VIP client experience.

Thankfully i’m geographically at the midpoint from Meridien Modena, Carr’s and DL so not tied to them as a local dealer. As much as I would like to keep a decent relationship with them Evo are doing a cracking job of turning what was a very happy experience into a miserable saga I just want to extract myself from PDQ.

Left a voicemail for Harry this morning and waiting for a response. I was actually surprised they didn’t request more documents than they did but their stupid upload system doesn’t allow you to add more than one file and they don’t even give you a contact person to speak to, let alone a courtesy call to walk you through the deal.

Genuinely shocking customer service on a finance deal that’s as much as a family house where their office is.


Edited by MisterBigglesworth on Friday 1st July 16:03

Bo_apex

1,732 posts

198 months

Friday 1st July
quotequote all
MisterBigglesworth said:
But then I really want a F12.

Will throw another 20k plus in the pot and give them one more go. If they can’t deal on those terms then I’m taking the 458 Spider to Lake Como for a month off and to hell with it.
That's a great area for the 458 spider smile

J-P

Original Poster:

4,158 posts

186 months

Friday 1st July
quotequote all
MisterBigglesworth said:
jwdh1 said:
MisterBigglesworth said:
But then I really want a F12.

Will throw another 20k plus in the pot and give them one more go. If they can’t deal on those terms then I’m taking the 458 Spider to Lake Como for a month off and to hell with it.
Can you not just bin Evolution and use C&D? Wouldn't waste my time on who you are using at the moment to be honest, they sound like a bunch of auto-cue reading muppets, which as you say, doesn't really fit with bespoke finance.
Think that could get political as C&D won’t want to get embroiled in a poaching fight with another broker who will want to claim the introducer fee in front of funders who they work hard to build good relationships with.

My original understanding was that we would prop it to Ferrari and if they didn’t want the deal then I would pass it to Mike @ C&D to arrange, but the first nod I got that Evo was involved was a email from Harry to say that they had sent it to them and they already had done the Aldermore hard search before I was able to get Mike on the case, so kind of not happy it got passed to Evo without my authority, can see how DL thought they were being helpful in getting funding, but I never would have agreed to them brokering it.

As it is Evo will have an open proposal with Aldermore (unless they declined due to lack of paperwork) and they shopped it to the other outfit. But the hard search is done and Evo will want to claim the introducer fee on any deal I’m sure, so the only clean exit is to can the deal, let the dust settle and search wear off then have Mike in charge of a new deal on another car so Evo can’t stick their noses in the commission trough.

It’s going to be a damage limitation exercise to preserve my funding relationship for the future here that I’m not responsible for putting a half baked finance app in.

Would leave a very bad taste in my mouth that Evo would get paid anything on this deal because they haven’t justified their commission at all, and C&D really do work for their money not just palm it off to some minimum wage clerk in a Northern call centre body shop.

Kind of surprised DL would even use them as a secondary broker - they are so far off the personal underwriter experience of FFS or JB`in private client management this whole example shows how a supplier can take a wrecking ball to all the work they do in creating a VIP client experience.

Thankfully i’m geographically at the midpoint from Meridien Modena, Carr’s and DL so not tied to them as a local dealer. As much as I would like to keep a decent relationship with them Evo are doing a cracking job of turning what was a very happy experience into a miserable saga I just want to extract myself from PDQ.

Left a voicemail for Harry this morning and waiting for a response. I was actually surprised they didn’t request more documents than they did but their stupid upload system doesn’t allow you to add more than one file and they don’t even give you a contact person to speak to, let alone a courtesy call to walk you through the deal.

Genuinely shocking customer service on a finance deal that’s as much as a family house where their office is.


Edited by MisterBigglesworth on Friday 1st July 16:03
Sorry for your troubles - this is a complete nightmare. I admire your perseverance, I would have told them to "do one" by now. I'm in Financial Services too, so guard my credit score very carefully, to have somebody tread all over my livelihood because of incompetence would be completely unacceptable to me and a sackable offence as far as I'm concerned.

Good luck though and I hope you manage to get the car of your dreams.

MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Saturday 2nd July
quotequote all
Thanks JL.

Well the saga continues. Got a phone call at shortly before 5pm to tell me the inept broker now wants last year’s tax return as the ‘final hurdle’.

They could have asked for this nearly 3 weeks ago. And I could have got a deal myself out of JBR and done all the paperwork in one shot and got a decision back in 24 hours.

Logged into my HMRC account and my PAYE statement won’t be computed until sometime between June-October.
I had planned to file my SA with my end of year accounts in October but instead I now have to file it this weekend and wait 3 days for HMRC to generate my SA302 - which if we had known at the start could have been done in the weeks they have taken pissing about with document requests.

A good broker would have requested everything at the start knowing exactly what the funder would have asked for.

If I go through all this effort to file early and this broker F’s it up I am genuinely going to go berserk.

The only good thing is if the deal goes south I’ll at least have got my tax return done, can get my company accounts filed earlier and go and get my own finance on another deal with all my paperwork sorted and will have everything I need to get a replacement 458 deal next year with the benefit of my PAYE ‘wage slips’, SA return and company accounts filed.






ANOpax

607 posts

146 months

Saturday 2nd July
quotequote all
Sorry to hear this.

If it's any consolation, we signed the deal for Mrs 'pax's F12 on the 1st of June and we are still waiting. Not due to any finance screw up (we aren't financing it) but because the dealership discovered a gearbox fault (the dreaded speed sensor) when the car went into prep. It has taken this long to diagnose and fix the gearbox and we're about to go on holiday next week until late July. So it will end up taking two months from test drive to delivery!

The Mrs isn't renowned for her patience but is being remarkably philosophical about it and is delighted that the car will come with a freshly rebuilt gearbox on someone else's account.

J-P

Original Poster:

4,158 posts

186 months

Saturday 2nd July
quotequote all
MisterBigglesworth said:
Thanks JL.

Well the saga continues. Got a phone call at shortly before 5pm to tell me the inept broker now wants last year’s tax return as the ‘final hurdle’.

They could have asked for this nearly 3 weeks ago. And I could have got a deal myself out of JBR and done all the paperwork in one shot and got a decision back in 24 hours.

Logged into my HMRC account and my PAYE statement won’t be computed until sometime between June-October.
I had planned to file my SA with my end of year accounts in October but instead I now have to file it this weekend and wait 3 days for HMRC to generate my SA302 - which if we had known at the start could have been done in the weeks they have taken pissing about with document requests.

A good broker would have requested everything at the start knowing exactly what the funder would have asked for.

If I go through all this effort to file early and this broker F’s it up I am genuinely going to go berserk.

The only good thing is if the deal goes south I’ll at least have got my tax return done, can get my company accounts filed earlier and go and get my own finance on another deal with all my paperwork sorted and will have everything I need to get a replacement 458 deal next year with the benefit of my PAYE ‘wage slips’, SA return and company accounts filed.
It'll work out for the best one way or another wink

DeejRC

3,943 posts

62 months

Saturday 2nd July
quotequote all
Why on earth don’t you just can the deal Biggle?

MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Saturday 2nd July
quotequote all
ANOpax said:
Sorry to hear this.

If it's any consolation, we signed the deal for Mrs 'pax's F12 on the 1st of June and we are still waiting. Not due to any finance screw up (we aren't financing it) but because the dealership discovered a gearbox fault (the dreaded speed sensor) when the car went into prep. It has taken this long to diagnose and fix the gearbox and we're about to go on holiday next week until late July. So it will end up taking two months from test drive to delivery!

The Mrs isn't renowned for her patience but is being remarkably philosophical about it and is delighted that the car will come with a freshly rebuilt gearbox on someone else's account.
I guess you can be happy they found it before you took delivery of it, would have been much worse if you had taken it and discovered it after the event

MisterBigglesworth

214 posts

28 months

Saturday 2nd July
quotequote all
DeejRC said:
Why on earth don’t you just can the deal Biggle?
Let’s just say at this point a failed application would do more damage than just biting my lip and putting up with it.

The problem with having written credit decision engines you know the impact every part of it has and all the data exchanged between funders so I need to be squeaky clean to pass vetting and work on these systems.

They will get their tax return and we will see it through
, failing on affordability or risk appetite isn’t damaging, not providing evidence to back up your application is even if it is the broker who is putting together a bad proposal that incorrectly represents you

DeejRC

3,943 posts

62 months

Saturday 2nd July
quotequote all
Sod that. I can honestly say I’ve never checked my credit score or considered it in my entire life be that for any car or mortgage deal.

Never ever live your life giving a fk what some finance wker might think about you!

J-P

Original Poster:

4,158 posts

186 months

Sunday 3rd July
quotequote all
DeejRC said:
Sod that. I can honestly say I’ve never checked my credit score or considered it in my entire life be that for any car or mortgage deal.

Never ever live your life giving a fk what some finance wker might think about you!
Sadly, if you work in the sector, you can't do that frown

footsoldier

2,136 posts

172 months

Monday 4th July
quotequote all
Doesn't matter what you do, you should be very aware of, and look after, your credit score. You won't get very far without a good one, and they are easily undermined by mistakes on both sides.

Taffy66

5,441 posts

82 months

Tuesday 5th July
quotequote all
With all due respect and IMHO you are washing too much of your dirty laundry on a hugely popular public forum. My advice would be to keep all details of your grievances with finance brokers off any forums. Just genuinely trying to give you some friendly advice which you are more than welcome to ignore if you wish.
All the best whatever you choose to do.

footsoldier

2,136 posts

172 months

Tuesday 5th July
quotequote all
^ true

ANOpax

607 posts

146 months

Tuesday 5th July
quotequote all
Taffy66 said:
With all due respect and IMHO you are washing too much of your dirty laundry on a hugely popular public forum. My advice would be to keep all details of your grievances with finance brokers off any forums. Just genuinely trying to give you some friendly advice which you are more than welcome to ignore if you wish.
All the best whatever you choose to do.
Could you elaborate more on why he shouldn’t be documenting the poor customer experience that he has received? Is there some sort of blow-back which finance companies are renowned for if you upset them? I’ve never financed a car so I’m unaware of what goes on in the industry.

Taffy66

5,441 posts

82 months

Tuesday 5th July
quotequote all
ANOpax said:
Could you elaborate more on why he shouldn’t be documenting the poor customer experience that he has received? Is there some sort of blow-back which finance companies are renowned for if you upset them? I’ve never financed a car so I’m unaware of what goes on in the industry.
You'd be very surprised who reads these forums from finance companies, car dealers, Ferrari, Porsche etc etc. He has divulged way too much information on a popular public forum which will do him no favours IMO.
Maybe I'm being too sensitive and overreacting but after buying countless Porsches and a few Ferraris I reckon I have a pretty good handle on what goes on.
As I said feel free to ignore my friendly advice but I would remove many of the previous posts and request others who have re-quoted to do the same.