Challenge Stradale thread
Discussion
WDISMYL said:
I find the paradoxical nature of collecting cars fascinating.
A car becomes collectable because of its mechanical attributes, and yet mustn't be driven in order to preserve its value?! What's the point of a car being desirable because it "is the last of the NA V8's" for example if you aren't allowed to actually enjoy that dynamic?
The really true classics are mileage insensitive . Can I put 100,000 miles on this and will people still want it. Didn't Rowan Atkinson crash his F1 several times, put a ton of miles on it and it still sold for millions? Pass that test and you have a winner!
We have gone through nearly a decade of relatively risk free ownership of supercars with respect to benign depreciation by historical standards and large price jumps for some lucky models. It has imprinted on a large percentage of drivers.
But in the same time the Dow has tripled, the Nasdaq is up 6 times, International property prices have risen dramatically etc. I know where I prefer to have my money for speculative investments. Buying any car specifically to try and make money is not a good idea IMHO.
I'm guilty of wanting the next, newest thing - and I think the generation following me is even more that way inclined. My teenage son has no interest in the "classics". I do think people will be very disappointed with their expected returns on these cars in the future.
The 360CS may be a great car to some - but for the money they want - there are far better modern cars whatever people say to try to convince themselves and others IMHO.
Edit: Clearly there are owners who drive and enjoy their 360CS to its full. They obviously disagree with me otherwise they would be selling theirs at current market prices and replacing them with something more modern! Respect to those owners - for them I hope it does become a collector classic!
Agree with a fair bit of that. And yes Rowan did about 55,000 miles in his F1, crashed it twice including the most expensive repair bill in history after splitting it in two (£980k) and still sold it for £8m!A car becomes collectable because of its mechanical attributes, and yet mustn't be driven in order to preserve its value?! What's the point of a car being desirable because it "is the last of the NA V8's" for example if you aren't allowed to actually enjoy that dynamic?
The really true classics are mileage insensitive . Can I put 100,000 miles on this and will people still want it. Didn't Rowan Atkinson crash his F1 several times, put a ton of miles on it and it still sold for millions? Pass that test and you have a winner!
We have gone through nearly a decade of relatively risk free ownership of supercars with respect to benign depreciation by historical standards and large price jumps for some lucky models. It has imprinted on a large percentage of drivers.
But in the same time the Dow has tripled, the Nasdaq is up 6 times, International property prices have risen dramatically etc. I know where I prefer to have my money for speculative investments. Buying any car specifically to try and make money is not a good idea IMHO.
I'm guilty of wanting the next, newest thing - and I think the generation following me is even more that way inclined. My teenage son has no interest in the "classics". I do think people will be very disappointed with their expected returns on these cars in the future.
The 360CS may be a great car to some - but for the money they want - there are far better modern cars whatever people say to try to convince themselves and others IMHO.
Edit: Clearly there are owners who drive and enjoy their 360CS to its full. They obviously disagree with me otherwise they would be selling theirs at current market prices and replacing them with something more modern! Respect to those owners - for them I hope it does become a collector classic!
Edited by WDISMYL on Wednesday 26th April 10:49
I think rarity comes into collector's minds a lot and the 360CS is a far rarer car than the F40. Plus there is the RHD vs LHD price battle not present in F50, 50, LaF etc. In the case of the CS only 119 RHD makes it one of the very rarest - take your pick Scuderia, GTO, 16M, Aperta there are loads more of all of those.
I suspect there will also come a time where driving spectacularly fast is rather pointless. Where in the UK with all it's "nanny state" cameras and cops crouching behind bushes can you get a new Ferrari wrung out in 4th gear?!!? So how about the idea of a car which you can actually try quite hard in without it being simply too fast to enjoy properly......come in 360 CS!
Combine noise, credibility of being a race car for the road not the other way around, limited numbers, being an 'event to drive' (as it's not as easy as a Speciale is to just jump in and drive) and lightness (how heavy everything has become since) and it starts to look unique!
911Thrasher said:
15HN said:
Because they're overpriced.
still looking to buy??There's also a massive difference between the price advertised and what these cars actually sell for. Take the black 07 car for example. It was up for 335k at one time. When it sold it went for 260k according to the selling dealer last year. A very short while later it was up for 299k and now is reduced to 289k. My guess is that it will sell - at a loss.
Someone somewhere is rubbing their hands smiling at these prices when money changes hands. My view is that sanity has started to sink in, hence cars being advertised for over a year. I guess that's the investor crowd waiting for their return to come in.
I think in terms of sales being slow, it is natural that as they go to a higher price bracket 1) less people can afford them so it's a smaller market and 2) it's more crowded with a lot of other nice super cars ( the £150k-£300k bracket has a lot of nice stuff to choose, new and classic)
Although financially I wouldn't mind a windfall from a price increase I really hope it doesn't happen for some time as I fear I'd be forced to sell. My car is in a price bracket i can currently feel ok using, parking on the street, doing trackdays etc. If it doubled I would get paranoid should something happen to it and it would drive me crazy not being able to enjoy it so I'd cash in and cry for the foreseeable future ...
Although financially I wouldn't mind a windfall from a price increase I really hope it doesn't happen for some time as I fear I'd be forced to sell. My car is in a price bracket i can currently feel ok using, parking on the street, doing trackdays etc. If it doubled I would get paranoid should something happen to it and it would drive me crazy not being able to enjoy it so I'd cash in and cry for the foreseeable future ...
the interesting thing is that car sales are a little like house sales at the moment. IE prices are not dropping, but no one is in a hurry to sell.
I had my 328 up for sale for 1 year. I dropped the price £5k once in that time, and it sold the moment I went to withdraw it from sale. it was priced keenly, but taking a year to sell was not a problem in terms of price points. So just because cars are taking longer to sell does not necessarily mean we are on the verge of some dramatic price drop.
I had my 328 up for sale for 1 year. I dropped the price £5k once in that time, and it sold the moment I went to withdraw it from sale. it was priced keenly, but taking a year to sell was not a problem in terms of price points. So just because cars are taking longer to sell does not necessarily mean we are on the verge of some dramatic price drop.
355fiorano said:
I think in terms of sales being slow, it is natural that as they go to a higher price bracket 1) less people can afford them so it's a smaller market and 2) it's more crowded with a lot of other nice super cars ( the £150k-£300k bracket has a lot of nice stuff to choose, new and classic)
Although financially I wouldn't mind a windfall from a price increase I really hope it doesn't happen for some time as I fear I'd be forced to sell. My car is in a price bracket i can currently feel ok using, parking on the street, doing trackdays etc. If it doubled I would get paranoid should something happen to it and it would drive me crazy not being able to enjoy it so I'd cash in and cry for the foreseeable future ...
I don't really get that - it is a car you paid a certain price for, so who cares if it is worth more now - if it were worthy 75 percent of what you paid for it a crash, mileage etc would still impact value, only then You would actually be in a hole - now it is free Although financially I wouldn't mind a windfall from a price increase I really hope it doesn't happen for some time as I fear I'd be forced to sell. My car is in a price bracket i can currently feel ok using, parking on the street, doing trackdays etc. If it doubled I would get paranoid should something happen to it and it would drive me crazy not being able to enjoy it so I'd cash in and cry for the foreseeable future ...
Just don't treat cars as an investment and you will be much happier with them imo
its very clear to me. A car is an investment when you need to justify to your partner that you really need a another car!
Secondly, the starting point for any car purchase is that you should factor in 40% price drop over 3 years. Anything that outperforms that figure and you are already ahead of 99% of other car buyers!
Secondly, the starting point for any car purchase is that you should factor in 40% price drop over 3 years. Anything that outperforms that figure and you are already ahead of 99% of other car buyers!
MDL111 said:
Just don't treat cars as an investment and you will be much happier with them imo
Strange investment I bought which I am hoping will not go up according to my post 
Also your logic is different to my logic and I'm happy to live with that.
My logic is that everyone has a price which is significant to them and their circumstances. There is value in people's belongings that were not bought specifically for investment, such as houses, cars, jewellery and other things. Their value can fluctuate to be more or less than what they paid originally. When people are offered more than they paid for something, and at a price which is significant to them, they think about whether to accept it. Also if the value is higher they tend to insure the higher value for that same reason, to avoid a loss. If an original owner of a 288 GTO that paid list £73,500 was offered that right now, they would be a bit underwhelmed. If they asked the insurance to insure it for that, they wouldn't even be allowed! If the logic of what you put at stake is the max that poseddion is worth, unless you specifically label it as an investment, then nobody would be leaving a casino with any winnings (apart from the guy that wins the jackpot), game shows like Who wants to be a millionaire would never work, as you need a constant flow of good actors to look really worried when they take a big chance on doubling up as most wouldn't care as they came in with nothing, and insurance companies should never try and increase your cars' sum assured and premium at renewal time.
The upshot though is that despite my flawed logic ... I'm still happy !
355fiorano said:
I think in terms of sales being slow, it is natural that as they go to a higher price bracket 1) less people can afford them so it's a smaller market and 2) it's more crowded with a lot of other nice super cars ( the £150k-£300k bracket has a lot of nice stuff to choose, new and classic)
Struggling with that explanation. 200k for a car isn't big money where these cars are now unobtainable. The scud, 16m, 599, 458 etc were all 200k cars. Crowded it may be however the stradale was always considered an iconic car. It ought to be in demand but it isn't at these prices.
Having a car for sale for months let alone a year is just plain silly. Shows the buyer isn't willing to sell unless silly price is obtained.
And to think that 997.2 RS 4.0 are being advertised at £550k!
The CS is such an iconic car, that in launch spec and concours condition it could easily be nearer £400k when you look at the prices of things that are out there.
A 911 R at £400k? It's not that significant a car. With the new GT3 coming in manual.
The RHD vs LHD market is correcting a bit on some of the daft discrepancies. If an LHD GTO is worth £500k, there is no way a RHD is £900k. These prices are coming together as they ought to, with mint RHDs now £750k or less.
But that still means there is room for a mint RHD CS to be £350k easily if the equivalent LHD is close to £250k.
The CS is such an iconic car, that in launch spec and concours condition it could easily be nearer £400k when you look at the prices of things that are out there.
A 911 R at £400k? It's not that significant a car. With the new GT3 coming in manual.
The RHD vs LHD market is correcting a bit on some of the daft discrepancies. If an LHD GTO is worth £500k, there is no way a RHD is £900k. These prices are coming together as they ought to, with mint RHDs now £750k or less.
But that still means there is room for a mint RHD CS to be £350k easily if the equivalent LHD is close to £250k.
Scooby P1 said:
And to think that 997.2 RS 4.0 are being advertised at £550k!
The CS is such an iconic car, that in launch spec and concours condition it could easily be nearer £400k when you look at the prices of things that are out there.
A 911 R at £400k? It's not that significant a car. With the new GT3 coming in manual.
The RHD vs LHD market is correcting a bit on some of the daft discrepancies. If an LHD GTO is worth £500k, there is no way a RHD is £900k. These prices are coming together as they ought to, with mint RHDs now £750k or less.
But that still means there is room for a mint RHD CS to be £350k easily if the equivalent LHD is close to £250k.
Had a 360CS and a 997 GT3RS - both of which are great cars but currently overpriced. Both future classics however, the current (now deflating) asset bubble has seen (and continues to see) some frankly ridiculous asking prices. Not just CS's and GT3's but many overpriced sports and classic cars are not selling at the advertised prices and some individuals and dealers that need to sell are now having to blink and drop prices. For the short and medium term, prices are only going one way - downwards. It's just the market correcting itself IMO. GT3 market is a good example. Early 2016, 991 GT3's were the sharp end of £180k. Now, at the height of the sports car buying season in 2017 see's 991 GT3's starting as little as £115k (RHD) which in turn is depressing the market for 997 GT3 RS's . The CS is such an iconic car, that in launch spec and concours condition it could easily be nearer £400k when you look at the prices of things that are out there.
A 911 R at £400k? It's not that significant a car. With the new GT3 coming in manual.
The RHD vs LHD market is correcting a bit on some of the daft discrepancies. If an LHD GTO is worth £500k, there is no way a RHD is £900k. These prices are coming together as they ought to, with mint RHDs now £750k or less.
But that still means there is room for a mint RHD CS to be £350k easily if the equivalent LHD is close to £250k.
Edited by Candellara on Thursday 27th April 17:22
i think sometimes people mistake high prices that are not being paid as a sign that the market has deflated, when the transactions are just taking place at a lower price. I also don't buy the argument that a car that is unsold for a year can only be because the price is inflated. Why is it that people can't accept that prices can just stabilise at a point where buyers and sellers freeze. It happens with house prices/sales all the time. With cars the optimists hope prices will double and the pessimists think prices will half. For years and years on end the average price increase/decrease will be tiny, just look at the last 15 years of classic car sale graphs
It will be fascinating to see what happens in 3-5 years when almost every supercar has a turbo. All the n/a cars will seem even rarer in every sense. And in ten years, buying something like a CS will feel so far from achievable useless it's an actual CS who knows what that will do to the price.
If I can afford to, much like my other cars, I'd like never to sell it. One of those things you're unlikely to ever be able to buy back once you miss it!
If I can afford to, much like my other cars, I'd like never to sell it. One of those things you're unlikely to ever be able to buy back once you miss it!
baypond said:
i think sometimes people mistake high prices that are not being paid as a sign that the market has deflated, when the transactions are just taking place at a lower price. I also don't buy the argument that a car that is unsold for a year can only be because the price is inflated. Why is it that people can't accept that prices can just stabilise at a point where buyers and sellers freeze. It happens with house prices/sales all the time. With cars the optimists hope prices will double and the pessimists think prices will half. For years and years on end the average price increase/decrease will be tiny, just look at the last 15 years of classic car sale graphs
? It's the same old cars for sale for over a year. There is no turnover.
A car being advertised for a price that doesn't sell means nothing. It's just an advert and doesn't in any way portray market prices stabilising. Actual transaction prices do and the reductions sellers are having to make is nothing bar the obvious. The trend before that was successive increases.
At over 200k you may as well wait and buy new.
My 328 took a year to sell at 5k below original asking price, and subsequently a number of transactions went through. When no transactions took place for a year, did prices drop? It's semantics but you could argue either way, since a stressed seller would have tried to sell at a lower price, but on the other hand im not aware that anyone did stress sell.
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