LP560-2 TO 991.2 GT3 ??

LP560-2 TO 991.2 GT3 ??

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Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Never you mind said:
I guess if you pay LIST for it then it makes sense. If you are paying some flipper who wouldn't know it's better than the speciale as they have never driven it then it's a different proposition.
at £50k over list it's still £100k cheaper than any of the other top 5 cars in that list !!! which still makes it amazing value !!

in fact it's the only car you can buy today with a Norm Asp engine, Manual gearbox, a real diff.


every other car in that list has 2 or 3 of the above !!! even the Lotus has a charged cooler super charger !

70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
in fact it's the only car you can buy today with a Norm Asp engine, Manual gearbox, a real diff.
So come on then, how many buyers that will actually track these is buying manual.... I guess zero..... Everyone loves supetfast dual clutch don't they..... The speculators are buying manual cars, esp the touring models, as not everyone got a chance to buy a 911r, the manual option is Porsches play on this

Never you mind

1,507 posts

111 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
at £50k over list it's still £100k cheaper than any of the other top 5 cars in that list !!! which still makes it amazing value !!

in fact it's the only car you can buy today with a Norm Asp engine, Manual gearbox, a real diff.


every other car in that list has 2 or 3 of the above !!! even the Lotus has a charged cooler super charger !
I have no doubt the GT3 is a superb car and as 70proof says they have had years of evolving it into what it is today, a great car to drive and also a great way to make free money for those lucky enough to get them at the expense of those that would actually use them.

I'll try to explain this without ranting but I would have bought a GT3 .2 IF Porsche would have let me, as stupid as that seems that I can't buy the car I want. Anyway, I was told by Leeds OPC that they wouldn't be selling cars to speculators/flippers etc etc and hey presto I know of a car sold by Leeds OPC that is now for sale with 60 miles on it. fk that! I am not going to encourage this kind of thing. But me not buying a car will make sod all difference to the market and people will be queuing up to pay overs for them.

Am I a bit bitter about this? Not at all. My Gallardo 50th Anniversary is a superb car to own and something very special to drive around with a lovely V10 howling right behind me, makes me feel like a superstar (Bet the Porsche doesn't do this?) . It might not see which way a GT3 went on a the track but I don't care.






Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
70proof said:
So come on then, how many buyers that will actually track these is buying manual.... I guess zero..... Everyone loves supetfast dual clutch don't they..... The speculators are buying manual cars, esp the touring models, as not everyone got a chance to buy a 911r, the manual option is Porsches play on this
not sure that has anything to do with how good the car is.

Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Never you mind said:
I have no doubt the GT3 is a superb car and as 70proof says they have had years of evolving it into what it is today, a great car to drive and also a great way to make free money for those lucky enough to get them at the expense of those that would actually use them.

I'll try to explain this without ranting but I would have bought a GT3 .2 IF Porsche would have let me, as stupid as that seems that I can't buy the car I want. Anyway, I was told by Leeds OPC that they wouldn't be selling cars to speculators/flippers etc etc and hey presto I know of a car sold by Leeds OPC that is now for sale with 60 miles on it. fk that! I am not going to encourage this kind of thing. But me not buying a car will make sod all difference to the market and people will be queuing up to pay overs for them.

Am I a bit bitter about this? Not at all. My Gallardo 50th Anniversary is a superb car to own and something very special to drive around with a lovely V10 howling right behind me, makes me feel like a superstar (Bet the Porsche doesn't do this?) . It might not see which way a GT3 went on a the track but I don't care.

The same as any other car, you cannot buy an LT from Macca or a Ferrari Pista, or a SVR Lambo.

So nothing new here. Porsche does make you feel like a super hero, just look at it !



70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Never you mind said:
But me not buying a car will make sod all difference to the market and people will be queuing up to pay overs for them.
The current situation with GT cars is like the us subprime market... Everyone wants a slice of the pie...

70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
The same as any other car, you cannot buy an LT from Macca or a Ferrari Pista, or a SVR Lambo.

So nothing new here. Porsche does make you feel like a super hero, just look at it !

That's a GT3 RS.... Even more money btw

One question for you.... Is the GT3 'fun' at 4/10s, or only at 9/10s.... I had a golf r manual which won all the group tests, but it was boring as hell at 4/10s... And 4/10s is all you are driving on our roads...

Edited by 70proof on Thursday 31st May 11:47

isaldiri

18,418 posts

167 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Never you mind said:
I guess if you pay LIST for it then it makes sense. If you are paying some flipper who wouldn't know it's better than the speciale as they have never driven it then it's a different proposition.
But it's absolutely not better than a speciale anyway. It's simply one of Autocar's deluded car rankings that the automotive mags delight in churning out every now and then. And anyway none of the cars on their list are what one would really call 'hard core'. The .2 gt3 is a good car, maybe even a very good one (but only at list price) but it's really not all that which the mags would have you believe.

70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
70proof said:
So come on then, how many buyers that will actually track these is buying manual.... I guess zero..... Everyone loves supetfast dual clutch don't they..... The speculators are buying manual cars, esp the touring models, as not everyone got a chance to buy a 911r, the manual option is Porsches play on this
not sure that has anything to do with how good the car is.
Your the one that proclaimed it's available as a manual ... Has the manual option got anything to do with the Autocar article, they probably drive the pdk

WCZ

10,492 posts

193 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
The same as any other car, you cannot buy an LT from Macca or a Ferrari Pista, or a SVR Lambo.

So nothing new here. Porsche does make you feel like a super hero, just look at it !

looks awful imo, if that was a masory bodykit or something then people would hate it

isaldiri

18,418 posts

167 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
70proof said:
Your the one that proclaimed it's available as a manual ... Has the manual option got anything to do with the Autocar article, they probably drive the pdk
The manual very likely is the reason why Autocar put it at the top though. They probably didn't drive any of the cars again to make up their list.....

70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
The manual very likely is the reason why Autocar put it at the top though. They probably didn't drive any of the cars again to make up their list.....
Oh, I thought it was based on a group test.

Hi btw. You tempted to ditch the original 4.0 for this new super beast then?

isaldiri

18,418 posts

167 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
70proof said:
You tempted to ditch the original 4.0 for this new super beast then?
Absolutely not. The new GT manual cars are a bit of a strange one to me to be honest. The dual clutch GT cars to me feel more 'complete' for lack of a better word - caveat, I don't have the fortune to have driven a 991R, that car likely is tuned for the road quite differently than the gt3 though. You know I had a gt4 previously, it just simply never felt 'right' in the way the older 997 gt3s did. Sticking a manual into box in overall a highly electronic car (electronic power steering, electronic rear brake torque vectoring, electronic rear wheel steering, electronic brake differential, stability/traction control etc) doesn't in any way make it an analogue feeling car.

70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
Absolutely not.
But it's just won best hardcore car ever!!! heherotate;)

Never you mind

1,507 posts

111 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
70proof said:
You tempted to ditch the original 4.0 for this new super beast then?
Absolutely not. The new GT manual cars are a bit of a strange one to me to be honest. The dual clutch GT cars to me feel more 'complete' for lack of a better word - caveat, I don't have the fortune to have driven a 991R, that car likely is tuned for the road quite differently than the gt3 though. You know I had a gt4 previously, it just simply never felt 'right' in the way the older 997 gt3s did. Sticking a manual into box in overall a highly electronic car (electronic power steering, electronic rear brake torque vectoring, electronic rear wheel steering, electronic brake differential, stability/traction control etc) doesn't in any way make it an analogue feeling car.
Curious, are you saying that the older GT cars, 996,997 feel like they have more driver involvement over the newer GT ones? My one and only experience with Porsche was a manual 996 Turbo, a fast car but just a bit...meh.

Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
Absolutely not. The new GT manual cars are a bit of a strange one to me to be honest. The dual clutch GT cars to me feel more 'complete' for lack of a better word - caveat, I don't have the fortune to have driven a 991R, that car likely is tuned for the road quite differently than the gt3 though. You know I had a gt4 previously, it just simply never felt 'right' in the way the older 997 gt3s did. Sticking a manual into box in overall a highly electronic car (electronic power steering, electronic rear brake torque vectoring, electronic rear wheel steering, electronic brake differential, stability/traction control etc) doesn't in any way make it an analogue feeling car.
not quite true the Manual GT3 also rips out the E-diff for a real one and detunes the RWS unit also.

The manual GT3 does feel alive and a proper drivers thing imo. you can turn off the TC and ESP, so you don't see any PTV either. I do think it does have an good old school feel to it,

you loose the steering feel over a 996 GT3 but its the best EPS yet , I think it's a great bit of kit and nothing like it you can buy from any one else today.

It's night and day better over a GT4 in a lot of area's

And while I thought the 991.1 GT3 was a bit dull and the GT4 a bit lacking, the Manual 991.2 GT3 is the best of todays drivers cars imo.

458 is great, but it's an Automatic with trick drift modes etc. I do love that car but it's £320k now and don't offer what the GT3 does.

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 31st May 13:44

isaldiri

18,418 posts

167 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Never you mind said:
Curious, are you saying that the older GT cars, 996,997 feel like they have more driver involvement over the newer GT ones? My one and only experience with Porsche was a manual 996 Turbo, a fast car but just a bit...meh.
In my opinion yes, a lot more involvement than the current GT 991 gen of cars. The turbo was always a very different car to the GT cars, less so now in the 991s but even so the GT cars do drive a lot better.

Porsche911R said:
not quite true the Manual GT3 also rips out the E-diff for a real one and detunes the RWS unit also.

The manual GT3 does feel alive and a proper drivers thing imo. you can turn off the TC and ESP, so you don't see any PTV either. I do think it does have an good old school feel to it,

you loose the steering feel over a 996 GT3 but its the best EPS yet , I think it's a great bit of kit and nothing like it you can buy from any one else today.

It's night and day better over a GT4 in a lot of area's

And while I thought the 991.1 GT3 was a bit dull and the GT4 a bit lacking, the Manual 991.2 GT3 is the best of todays drivers cars imo.
I repeat, a manual gearbox alone does not make a driver's car.

The new gt3 has a mechanical diff (which is weaker than the old pretty weak 997 gt3 iirc) but it still has rear wheel steer and torque vectoring cannot be turned off just like in the gt4 and ABS which forms part of the automatic brake differential. The modern GT cars are designed (like any modern Ferrari/Mclaren/etc) with the TC and ESP in mind and you hardly need to turn them off in the 991 gen cars if you are driving properly. The new gt3 is a very good car, very capable and easily driven quickly but it's not the second coming as sometimes is presented, at least not to me and it certainly is not old school or even partially analogue like in the 997s.

70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
Quote from another thread... Gosh I'm bored....

Porsche911R said:
Hence why I love my 987.2 Spyder and Cayman R both are more fun than a £190k Gt3 !

At least with the new GT3 they also took out the E-Diff if you went manual. Not really noticed RWS bar it makes it drive more like my GT4 :-)
At least be consistent in praise etc 991R

Never you mind

1,507 posts

111 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
70proof said:
Quote from another thread... Gosh I'm bored....

Porsche911R said:
Hence why I love my 987.2 Spyder and Cayman R both are more fun than a £190k Gt3 !

At least with the new GT3 they also took out the E-Diff if you went manual. Not really noticed RWS bar it makes it drive more like my GT4 :-)
At least be consistent in praise etc 991R
LOL.

70proof

6,045 posts

154 months

Thursday 31st May 2018
quotequote all
came across this the other day..... sums isi's point entirely i think.... not only is the servo controlling things, dont modern manuals have engive rev matching and blipping on downchanges ect

But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?

"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like the Huracán, we will only do a semiautomatic.

"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."

This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.

It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."

So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.

Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.

"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."

As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight

Edited by 70proof on Thursday 31st May 15:21