Supercars.. Base vs Ultimate variants .... Really ?

Supercars.. Base vs Ultimate variants .... Really ?

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carspath

Original Poster:

832 posts

176 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
quotequote all
We were discussing the Aventador on a separate PH thread when the following point came up indirectly :



‘Are the ‘’ ULTIMATE ‘’ versions of the same supercar model actually worth the grossly inflated prices that they command over the base versions ? ‘

OR

Are we being taken for a very , very , long ride by the Manufacturer’s PR Dept , the Motoring Press , whose journalists have to earn their daily crust on a regular and continuous basis , and the second hand car traders and speculators ?

This applies to every supercar marque , but let me start with Lamborghini .



Is the Countach QV really that much better ?

Is the Murcie SV really that much better than the base version that the Motoring press raved on about , at its debut in 2001 ?
You would expect some evolutionary improvements over an 8 year period , but were the improvements sufficiently revolutionary to justify the circa 250% difference in price that is currently being demanded on the 2nd hand market ?

Ditto the Diablo and the Aventador SV and SVJ variants cf the base variants

( An exception is the Miura SV , where the separation of the engine and gearbox lubrication was a very significant and necessary mechanical improvement over the base version . Also the aerodynamics were less dangerous , but you would reasonably expect that cars released in this millennium to have had this rather important point sorted out before release .... Audi TT shusshh )




Because , if you look at the underlying mechanics of these variants , they are pretty much the same with relatively minor tweaks .


Do you really think that a 80 Kg difference makes any difference in a ROAD CAR , which itself weighs about 1600-1800 Kg ?
(You can get yourself a very nice , genuinely lightweight , track car for £15 K )



The base cars will do 95% of what the ultimate cars will do for a fraction of the price ( bragging rights excepted ) .... the mechanical specification dictates that this is the case


Just trying to explain this by saying ‘supply and demand’ ( which of course is always the case ) doesn’t delve deep enough , nor does it answer the original question above


I think that we are being taken for fools ( by PR and Press ) with these variants !!

Or is this simply the fodder that we are being thrown , and expected to swallow , by the second hand market traders and speculators ?






Edited by carspath on Wednesday 11th December 07:15

MDL111

6,895 posts

176 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
quotequote all
I don’t have the answer to your question, but always thought that it must be possible to make a standard car drive very similar to the track/limited etc version. I was more thinking about stuff like 360 vs Challenge Stradale / 599 vs GTO, but applies to others just as well - but owners seem to be convinced it is a completely different car and no way comparable. Still not cheap (change stuff like exhaust system plus remap, seats, rip out some sound deadening, possibly some suspension components, lighter rims etc), but probably fun and - in most instances - still cheaper than a limited car. A car modified like that will probably be better than the official version in some respects and possibly worse in others, but likely feel no less special to drive.
I think the margin between the recent (call it last 10-15 years) limited and normal versions will narrow over time - just too many cars and too many specials (and most of those not really all that limited - just seems that way due to never before seen demand for cars thanks to cheap money)

Taffy66

5,964 posts

101 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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Interesting topic which i can relate to..Buying a spanking new Supercar, then getting the special limited versions is a no-brainer however mere mortals can't get one so its irrelevant..
Looking at current used values of standard supercars compared to the special versions is a more difficult question..For a wealthy collector of fine rare automobiles then the specials make more sense..For less well heeled buyers who only want supercars for driving enjoyment then the standard versions are the only ones to buy IMO.
Examples are some Ferraris which i know about because i follow the market..A nice 458 italia is £145K compared to a similarly nice 458 Speciale at over £300K. Another example is the F12 at £170k whereas a TDF is a whopping £700k+, 599GTB at £120K and the 599GTO at £550K and so on..
Is a 458 Speciale worth as much as a 458 Italia and F12 put together.? From a collector's POV perhaps so, but for using and driving without the stress of usage affecting values then its the latter pair every time IMO.

davek_964

8,796 posts

174 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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MDL111 said:
I don’t have the answer to your question, but always thought that it must be possible to make a standard car drive very similar to the track/limited etc version. I was more thinking about stuff like 360 vs Challenge Stradale / 599 vs GTO, but applies to others just as well - but owners seem to be convinced it is a completely different car and no way comparable. Still not cheap (change stuff like exhaust system plus remap, seats, rip out some sound deadening, possibly some suspension components, lighter rims etc), but probably fun and - in most instances - still cheaper than a limited car. A car modified like that will probably be better than the official version in some respects and possibly worse in others, but likely feel no less special to drive.
I think the margin between the recent (call it last 10-15 years) limited and normal versions will narrow over time - just too many cars and too many specials (and most of those not really all that limited - just seems that way due to never before seen demand for cars thanks to cheap money)
The problem with this is that - even if the end result is a "better" car - it becomes harder to sell. People who want the CS will only consider the CS. People who want the stock car are unlikely to consider the halfway house.

I guess one question to ask when considering whether the special versions are worth the extra is - Do the people who buy them think "I could have bought the bog standard one and saved myself £££££s".
I'm guessing mostly not.

And as long as the inflated price continues to be inflated - which is usually the case - then I guess you don't really lose much by paying more in the first place.

topjay

774 posts

217 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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Of course they are not worth the extra logically, they are taking the mickey for a car that costs them very similar.

The do seem to drive quite differently though so I guess you take your choice if you don’t want to mess a it with it.


DanPhoto

159 posts

121 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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There probably is very little real world difference between the two variants (especially in road use) and the additional cost for the 'ultimate' will be wasted in the eyes of 99% of the public. Also, the additional styling on the ultimates can sometimes look forced, when compared to the base model. The base Aventador had aggressive looks with sharp lines with a very cohesive style. Subsequent upgrades added more vents, more lines and, to some, looked too contrived. Personally I prefer the styling of the 50th anniversary model, but since the SV and SVJ, it has become the forgotten special edition.

That said, a car worth over £250k is only comfortably affordable by the top 0.1% of earners and these will be people that likely pride themselves on their good taste and refinement. In which case, having the 'base' model of any status symbol would be unacceptable.

Ferruccio

1,832 posts

118 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
quotequote all
Depends on the car.
The early Countaches are worth far more than the later ones. Which are certainly faster - more power, fatter tyres etc.
The later Miuras SV are worth more than the early ones.
I’m not sure about Diablos in the long run - the early ones, like the early Countaches are purer, no power steering, no abs, no airbags.
Early Murcielagos were still manual; the last of the line - the SV is a great drive.
Like everything people ultimately attach value in different ways.........
Production numbers do seem to matter, though these have clear risen overall very significantly since the 60s.

carspath

Original Poster:

832 posts

176 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
quotequote all
Thank you for your contributions, and I have to say that I agree with every point made thus far .

DanPhoto.... interesting comment re the aesthetics , and the following supports what you say
Re the Murcielago , Luc Donkerwolke’s original LP 580 design was apparently held in high regard because it closely followed the Bauhaus design ethos.
The gentleman ( whose name eludes me just now ) who modified Donkerwolke’s design for the LP 640 , said in an interview that the design team were essentially forced to make the LP 640 more dramatic in appearance to differentiate it from the original , and to justify the new variant .
So the LP 640 , which had genuine mechanical changes over the original LP 580 , had its aesthetics modified in a case of ‘form following marketing ‘ , rather than form following function . The Bauhaus purity was essentially sacrificed .

AmosMoses

4,039 posts

164 months

Wednesday 11th December 2019
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I think it very much depends on the price difference. If you can get the car at list I think it’s always worth it as you get the best version of the car you like.

But when it comes to the speculator market it’s a whole different ball game. Is an LP670 a 75% better car than an LP640? Is a 675LT really worth double a 650s? Etc

Brand ultimately want to make everyone feel special, that way their cars have an air of mystery about them and that just drives prices up.

It’s a funny old world the supercar market!

AndrewD

7,527 posts

283 months

Saturday 28th December 2019
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I think it used to be the case that the specials made a case for themselves because they were, well, special. But now all the manufacturers are churning out variant after variant and niche model after niche model and they are shooting themselves in the foot because the halo cars are no longer really halo cars. I think they are all losing their specialness and find it very hard to get excited any more.

The 599 GTO and 670 SV were mentioned, both cars I owned and out 10,000 miles on each. I loved the GTO, it isn’t just a quick tune different from the normal 599. There was chassis strengthening as well as engine, suspension and gearbox work. But it was still a big old lump for all that and in no way do I think personally worth the kind of prices you see them advertised for (and sitting for months unsold). The SV was frankly a huge disappointment- the flappy paddle gearbox in no way suited the car, to me anyway, and you had to wring the neck of the engine to get the car to move quickly. It’s a big and old car underneath so frankly a 640 with a manual would be a better car if you want that sort of thing. Same with my old 5000S Countach - an epic event but pretty underwhelming as a driving tool really.

I think the game has changed. Now it is more about finding the sweet spot in the range. On a recent Euro trip there were plenty of GT3’s and RS but a normal GTS was keeping up and doing fine, 99.5% of a “special” in reality for a lot less money and who cares about putting miles on it.

carspath

Original Poster:

832 posts

176 months

Monday 30th December 2019
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Its interesting to hear that owners with first hand experience of these supercar variants share some of my sentiments .

Over the course of a ten year development cycle , one would expect the final variant to be better in at least some respects .

What is troubling is that some dealers and journalists peddle the hypocrisy that the ''ultimate '' versions are worth the gross mark-up , and in doing so , wrongly influence potential owners who have saved hard to get their dream car .

( I can entirely appreciate that a collector might want an ''ultimate '' variant purely for its rarity --- although I would prefer to upgrade to a different model or different marque whose technical or historic value genuinely warrants the extra cost )

Dealers do this peddling for the money , but why do the journos indulge ?

cgt2

7,093 posts

187 months

Monday 30th December 2019
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Having had an early steel bodied 308 and a late 328 at the same time I can unequivocally say the early car was better even though slightly trickier to maintain. Prettier too in my opinion.

carspath

Original Poster:

832 posts

176 months

Wednesday 1st January 2020
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The following is copied from the PH General News article by Dan Prosser , ( Aventador SVJ Roadster vs. Huracan Evo Spyder ) , and I am not sure that Dan could possibly have meant what he has written in his closing paragraph :



'' I can count on one hand the number of really memorable drives I've had in Lamborghinis. It's rare that I actually connect with them. But in a pair of Lamborghini supercars that have been tweaked and refined almost beyond recognition during their lifetimes - plus with roofs that come away and, most importantly, in the habitat they long for - I'm pleased to say that number has increased by two. ''




1) '' tweaked and refined almost beyond recognition ''
Just the sort of journalistic license that beggars belief , and leads to suspicion of the writer's motives .
It cannot , almost by definition , possibly be true for a journalist driving a car sensibly on UK roads , even at 1& 1/2 times the National Speed Limit , to perceive a total transformation of its character .
Either the initial base car was really terrible , or the new ultimate variant is so wonderful , that it defies reality .
I wish that journalists would not indulge in hyperbole , for the sake of print .



2) '' really memorable drives''
This statement beggars belief beyond pleading and even praying !!
I can honestly say that I can remember something truly memorable from every single drive of the admittedly limited V12 Lambos that I have driven .
Approaching the car is daunting , even after 20 years .
Getting in is an event .
Starting it up makes the heart thump -- mainly because you don't know if it will .
And you still haven't even moved an inch .
Engaging first gear is a mechanical joy - firm but not hard . ( or the E-Gear clicking in --- will the actuators play ball on this occasion ? )
You have to allow 20 miles or 20 minutes for the engine oil temperature gauge to even begin to move off its stop , and you need to keep the revs low during this time , so you have to be considerate to your fellow road users and let them by , which takes care and attention , and is in itself a memorable part of the driving experience .
You have to wake the beast up gently and slowly .
And these cars only wake up past a certain engine and road speed - and each and every drive requires you to get to that , before you can even begin to experience the car - otherwise best leave it in the garage , nice and clean , which is what I do a lot anyway - they really are not daily drivers .
And once you have done all that , the car's character changes constantly . depending on engine and road speed --- everything here demands your constant attention , and is truly memorable !!!!!
The visibility backwards ( blue flashing lights ) , and sideways , is atrocious , and the width is far far too wide , for UK B roads ( and why even bother taking a V12 on a motorway ? ) -- so these 2 factors alone make every drive memorable .
You would need to be half asleep , or more accurately comatose , to think otherwise .

I have a huge amount of respect for Dan and his writing , and envy ( in the nicest possible way ) his good fortune in having access to a wide variety of the most tasty of cars , but on this occasion I think that he is mistaken , and I would counter that every moment in a V12 Lambo is truly memorable , and a privilege ( I have very little experience of the V10's )

sone

4,585 posts

237 months

Wednesday 1st January 2020
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I sometimes wonder if people actually drive these cars they write about. I’ve owned 2 Aventadors in recent years and once you’re in them and settled in, they are no more difficult to drive than most other large saloon cars. Visibility you get used to in five minutes and it’s easy to make smooth progress. Only pita is parking them because they are so wide and won’t fit comfortably into a normal parking space.
With regard to Special or limited edition cars in my experience the difference is generally imperceivable, sure some of them sound better because they’re generally stripped out for weight saving and lose some sound deadening.
I’ve owned a few special cars 430 Scud, 360 Cs couple of Perf Huracans, Aventador S, Porsche 911 GT3 RS and a few others and to be perfectly honest I quite often own them firstly because I can afford to but also the cost of ownership is probably little more than the lesser brethren. There are people out there that will tell you for instance a Specilae is twice the car the std 458 is but personally I think that’s tosh. The standard car was fantastic and while the Speciale is a great car it’s not twice as good as a car that was already very very good.
The difference between the models is more use in the pub than on road or track.

WCZ

10,492 posts

193 months

Thursday 2nd January 2020
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sone said:
I sometimes wonder if people actually drive these cars they write about. I’ve owned 2 Aventadors in recent years and once you’re in them and settled in, they are no more difficult to drive than most other large saloon cars. Visibility you get used to in five minutes and it’s easy to make smooth progress. Only pita is parking them because they are so wide and won’t fit comfortably into a normal parking space.
With regard to Special or limited edition cars in my experience the difference is generally imperceivable, sure some of them sound better because they’re generally stripped out for weight saving and lose some sound deadening.
I’ve owned a few special cars 430 Scud, 360 Cs couple of Perf Huracans, Aventador S, Porsche 911 GT3 RS and a few others and to be perfectly honest I quite often own them firstly because I can afford to but also the cost of ownership is probably little more than the lesser brethren. There are people out there that will tell you for instance a Specilae is twice the car the std 458 is but personally I think that’s tosh. The standard car was fantastic and while the Speciale is a great car it’s not twice as good as a car that was already very very good.
The difference between the models is more use in the pub than on road or track.
agreed, lots of it is nonsense that can be replicated yourself at home pretty easily

imo the 't' porsches proved that even car fantatics are gullible enough to be pursuaded by marketing that a couple of tiny changes makes a giant difference.

just removing sound proofing alone gives a huge placebo effect and makes people think they are driving a sportier car

or in the case of the TDF the biggest difference is in the lack of traction control



George 500

647 posts

217 months

Saturday 11th April 2020
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Bit slow to reply to this but in my personal experience the corrosive part of this is the stigma that “base” models then attract.

The bar room pundits deride them as soft, imprecise, heavy. “Not the one to have that one”

And this may be true In the sense that with all the money in the world you would buy the optimal variant in the absolute optimal condition. Much in the same way as if someone offered you any choice of chateau laffite you might pick a 1982 or possibly a 1945. However this doesn’t by any means make every other chateau laffite “not the one to have”. Frankly every opportunity should be seized with both hands virtually irrespective of the vintage

For me cars like a 458, 599 or Murci 580 are already automotive royalty and any individual without unlimited means who writes them off “because I would only own a Speciale/GTO/SV” seems rather perverse to me

In my personal experience I have found that getting the one “not to have” has allowed me access to an experience that is still far above and beyond anything else at the price point. While looking for a Ferrari 355 I realised that for a highly limited additional outlay I could get a 2wd Diablo. It’s a base model with 40k miles and therefore apparently “wrong”. But frankly I couldn’t afford then (and can’t now) the “right” Diablo and at no point do I not slightly pinch myself about owning a v12 Lamborghini

This whole thing strikes me as a bit of a motor trade benefit with the new car bunch looking to shift more metal and the classic dealers trying to stick increasingly alarming mark ups and investment grade fluff onto the “best of the best”

Calculator

743 posts

214 months

Saturday 11th April 2020
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Good points, well made. Now let’s enjoy some pics of the Lambo!

DIW35

4,145 posts

199 months

Monday 13th April 2020
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I have a 'base' Murci (2003) and have never had the feeling that I need to upgrade it to a 'better' model.

keo

2,021 posts

169 months

Tuesday 14th April 2020
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DIW35 said:
I have a 'base' Murci (2003) and have never had the feeling that I need to upgrade it to a 'better' model.
Best looking Murci imo

WCZ

10,492 posts

193 months

Tuesday 14th April 2020
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DIW35 said:
I have a 'base' Murci (2003) and have never had the feeling that I need to upgrade it to a 'better' model.
The SV is a special variant for real