Discussion
Craigwww said:
The Surveyor said:
And your thoughts on the future values of the 650s are......
...I think they have been discussed to the death on here. Such a boring subject.Life is too short for so much b
hiness from so many lucky people.The Surveyor said:
Oh give it a rest, it's like a school play ground in here.
Love him or hate him, Rambo does make a contribution to these threads, often opinionated, often ridiculous, often tongue-in-cheek, but a contribution non-the-less. Some troll turns up, with no posting history, with no profile details, with no credibility, and makes no relevant contribution and then the silliness starts.... sad, very sad.
+1Love him or hate him, Rambo does make a contribution to these threads, often opinionated, often ridiculous, often tongue-in-cheek, but a contribution non-the-less. Some troll turns up, with no posting history, with no profile details, with no credibility, and makes no relevant contribution and then the silliness starts.... sad, very sad.
The Surveyor said:
And your thoughts on the future values of the 650s are......
Personally, they'll always be valued above the 12c so there will be a natural hierarchy in values down the range. With 12c values being stable, that will stop 650s dropping to the same level, after all why would you buy a 12c if they cost the same as a 650s?
Precisely. 12C prices probably average £120k now, Personally, they'll always be valued above the 12c so there will be a natural hierarchy in values down the range. With 12c values being stable, that will stop 650s dropping to the same level, after all why would you buy a 12c if they cost the same as a 650s?
12 C spiders are as much as £145k. 12C bottomed out at £110k and bounced back, easing up over the last 2 years and been stable ever since.
650S has £20k of additional spec in standard form over the 12C and is obviously newer/better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5h8cx9BGR8
You only have to look at Gallardo / F430/458 prices to see the 12C represents massive value and the same applies to 650S at another £20k.
I don't see 650S prices changing an awful lot from here on in TBH, especially in a market of overpriced competitors. Demand will be strong and growing with supply becoming less. That would normally lead to a price increase but in a market that has cooled I think it will even itself out and flatline
WCZ said:
The Surveyor said:
Oh give it a rest, it's like a school play ground in here.
Love him or hate him, Rambo does make a contribution to these threads, often opinionated, often ridiculous, often tongue-in-cheek, but a contribution non-the-less. Some troll turns up, with no posting history, with no profile details, with no credibility, and makes no relevant contribution and then the silliness starts.... sad, very sad.
+1Love him or hate him, Rambo does make a contribution to these threads, often opinionated, often ridiculous, often tongue-in-cheek, but a contribution non-the-less. Some troll turns up, with no posting history, with no profile details, with no credibility, and makes no relevant contribution and then the silliness starts.... sad, very sad.
He was eventually left the Ferrari forum for a while when everyone just started ignoring his posts given the negative agenda he had there. No-one quoted him, no-one reacted to him. It was like he wasn't there and the discussion just went on with people treating him like an invisible GoogleAd. There may be those who may want to consider doing that again here.
Speed.deman said:
I've been on here for a little while now. In his previous iterations (let's see how long he stays RamboLambo), he has always had an agenda and nothing has changed. It speaks volumes about the kind of person he is that he continues to make the same form/style of contributions despite the repeated criticism, constructive and mostly otherwise.
He was eventually left the Ferrari forum for a while when everyone just started ignoring his posts given the negative agenda he had there. No-one quoted him, no-one reacted to him. It was like he wasn't there and the discussion just went on with people treating him like an invisible GoogleAd. There may be those who may want to consider doing that again here.
And there will be the many others that continue to PM me and take on the good advice, afterall its FOC to you lucky readers.He was eventually left the Ferrari forum for a while when everyone just started ignoring his posts given the negative agenda he had there. No-one quoted him, no-one reacted to him. It was like he wasn't there and the discussion just went on with people treating him like an invisible GoogleAd. There may be those who may want to consider doing that again here.
It would be very easy for me not to contribute anything and just come on here to criticise others and troll. If you don't like my style or advice, that's your choice but TBH the constant bickering is far more repetitive and less constructive than all of my posts put together.
I accept not every one here has over 25 years knowledge of supercars and the motor industry so I just forgive their ignorance
Nothing personal at all, but what kind of "advice" are you referring to?
Buy some more 650s as the price is going to go up?
I get the argument that the 650 will probably always sit £20k above the 12c but who's to say the 12c will continue to plateau from here? The party's over and it's just now the oldest car in a constantly evolving series of improving McLarens that all have pretty similar features. V8 turbo? Check. Flappy paddle gearbox? Check. Fancy doors? Check. The 12c is just older and less developed.
Also, as an owner of a 650s from new for 15 months ( I have sold it now), they simply do not have the underlying quality or engineering integrity of a Porsche or recent Ferrari. Mine leaked at the door seals, constantly tried to recalibrate the air con, intermittently lost the DAB and the final straw was the lifting of seal strip around the windscreen due to the failure of the cheap double sided sticky tape McLaren had used to affix it. Hopeless for a "£240k" super car in my view and the market will spot that as they age. They are still great cars by any standard but appreciating classics they are not. All imho of course.
Buy some more 650s as the price is going to go up?
I get the argument that the 650 will probably always sit £20k above the 12c but who's to say the 12c will continue to plateau from here? The party's over and it's just now the oldest car in a constantly evolving series of improving McLarens that all have pretty similar features. V8 turbo? Check. Flappy paddle gearbox? Check. Fancy doors? Check. The 12c is just older and less developed.
Also, as an owner of a 650s from new for 15 months ( I have sold it now), they simply do not have the underlying quality or engineering integrity of a Porsche or recent Ferrari. Mine leaked at the door seals, constantly tried to recalibrate the air con, intermittently lost the DAB and the final straw was the lifting of seal strip around the windscreen due to the failure of the cheap double sided sticky tape McLaren had used to affix it. Hopeless for a "£240k" super car in my view and the market will spot that as they age. They are still great cars by any standard but appreciating classics they are not. All imho of course.
The Surveyor said:
Oh give it a rest, it's like a school play ground in here.
Love him or hate him, Rambo does make a contribution to these threads, often opinionated, often ridiculous, often tongue-in-cheek, but a contribution non-the-less. Some troll turns up, with no posting history, with no profile details, with no credibility, and makes no relevant contribution and then the silliness starts.... sad, very sad.
I'm not a troll and I have not abused anyone.Love him or hate him, Rambo does make a contribution to these threads, often opinionated, often ridiculous, often tongue-in-cheek, but a contribution non-the-less. Some troll turns up, with no posting history, with no profile details, with no credibility, and makes no relevant contribution and then the silliness starts.... sad, very sad.
I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
700BHP said:
I'm not a troll and I have not abused anyone.
I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
your posts here are spot onI simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
many of us have just grown bored of gary's predictable nonsense
andrew said:
700BHP said:
I'm not a troll and I have not abused anyone.
I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
your posts here are spot onI simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
many of us have just grown bored of gary's predictable nonsense
DT398 said:
Nothing personal at all, but what kind of "advice" are you referring to?
Buy some more 650s as the price is going to go up?
I get the argument that the 650 will probably always sit £20k above the 12c but who's to say the 12c will continue to plateau from here? The party's over and it's just now the oldest car in a constantly evolving series of improving McLarens that all have pretty similar features. V8 turbo? Check. Flappy paddle gearbox? Check. Fancy doors? Check. The 12c is just older and less developed.
Also, as an owner of a 650s from new for 15 months ( I have sold it now), they simply do not have the underlying quality or engineering integrity of a Porsche or recent Ferrari. Mine leaked at the door seals, constantly tried to recalibrate the air con, intermittently lost the DAB and the final straw was the lifting of seal strip around the windscreen due to the failure of the cheap double sided sticky tape McLaren had used to affix it. Hopeless for a "£240k" super car in my view and the market will spot that as they age. They are still great cars by any standard but appreciating classics they are not. All imho of course.
Sorry to hear of your poor experience with your McLaren and I'm sure its the exception rather than the rule or I guess I must of struck gold and got the best car out of the factory then as my 650S has been faultless, Absolutely rock solid and the build quality spot on. The fit and finish, paintwork and components are all far superior to the Ferraris and Lambo's Ive owned in the past maybe because the components are not borrowed from Fiats or VW's spare parts bin. My 6 month old 570S has had 1 small electrical glitch that simply required a reprogrammingBuy some more 650s as the price is going to go up?
I get the argument that the 650 will probably always sit £20k above the 12c but who's to say the 12c will continue to plateau from here? The party's over and it's just now the oldest car in a constantly evolving series of improving McLarens that all have pretty similar features. V8 turbo? Check. Flappy paddle gearbox? Check. Fancy doors? Check. The 12c is just older and less developed.
Also, as an owner of a 650s from new for 15 months ( I have sold it now), they simply do not have the underlying quality or engineering integrity of a Porsche or recent Ferrari. Mine leaked at the door seals, constantly tried to recalibrate the air con, intermittently lost the DAB and the final straw was the lifting of seal strip around the windscreen due to the failure of the cheap double sided sticky tape McLaren had used to affix it. Hopeless for a "£240k" super car in my view and the market will spot that as they age. They are still great cars by any standard but appreciating classics they are not. All imho of course.
I have no association to McLaren and no loyalty as such to any of the supercar manufacturers ( if anything I'm biased towards Ferrari having been brought up on them and owned more of them than others) but as someone who works with cars day in and day out I personally think McLaren is better quality than the others
garyhun said:
andrew said:
700BHP said:
I'm not a troll and I have not abused anyone.
I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
your posts here are spot onI simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
many of us have just grown bored of gary's predictable nonsense
RamboLambo said:
Sorry to hear of your poor experience with your McLaren and I'm sure its the exception rather than the rule or I guess I must of struck gold and got the best car out of the factory then as my 650S has been faultless, Absolutely rock solid and the build quality spot on. The fit and finish, paintwork and components are all far superior to the Ferraris and Lambo's Ive owned in the past maybe because the components are not borrowed from Fiats or VW's spare parts bin. My 6 month old 570S has had 1 small electrical glitch that simply required a reprogramming
I have no association to McLaren and no loyalty as such to any of the supercar manufacturers ( if anything I'm biased towards Ferrari having been brought up on them and owned more of them than others) but as someone who works with cars day in and day out I personally think McLaren is better quality than the others
I didn't say it was a poor experience. I enjoyed owning it and my points about the quality were to give some credibility to the argument that they are not some kind of holy grail super car and that they have neither the development nor engineering integrity that some of the competition does. That will come with time and experience but when you hear of early adopters of 720s having thier deliveries delayed whilst the dealer sorts out panel gaps, you do have to wonder. I have no association to McLaren and no loyalty as such to any of the supercar manufacturers ( if anything I'm biased towards Ferrari having been brought up on them and owned more of them than others) but as someone who works with cars day in and day out I personally think McLaren is better quality than the others
For someone who supposedly understands the trade, I would have thought you would realise that taking parts from the "bins" of other divisions of a group will help to drive up quality as volume is your friend. Dissing it as parts from lesser brands bins that lower quality makes it look like you don't understand how the good automotive manufacturers work.
Part of McLarens problem stems absolutely from bespoke parts and lack of volume. The fact that Porsche and Ferrari can use VW and Fiat parts is a good thing within reason and Porsche know full well that they can't make a 911 look and feel like a VW but where it works they can and should exploit it. Generally, we all get better cars that way.
Anyhow, the original point of this thread was values of the 650s and none of us can predict the future and my view is they are heading downwards over the next few years. No idea how quickly but in the end it doesn't matter. Whilst I was driving mine I mostly had a stupid grin on my face and didn't give a moments thought to how much it was worth.
onlogbook.com said:
My 650s will be worth a millions. Just you mark my words
It already is, you just need to ship it to SA...https://www.autotrader.co.za/makemodel/make/MCLARE...
700BHP said:
I'm not a troll and I have not abused anyone.
I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
Oh please, I'm not sure what's more embarrassing. Your trolling of this thread, or your 'I'm new here and I ain't dun nufink' response I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
Let's start a fresh, on a thread about the future values of the 650s what are your thoughts?
[quote=DT398
I get the argument that the 650 will probably always sit £20k above the 12c but who's to say the 12c will continue to plateau from here?
[/quote]
A key issue here is complexity.
There just ain't that much to go wrong on an old car; they are basically simple.
Engine, gearbox, brakes, lights.
On modern cars there are so many things to go wrong as the car ages - ECUs, cats, sensors, countless little motors, ABS, traction control, suspension adjustment, flappy paddle gearbox, the list is endless.
And it's all expensive stuff.
What will it cost to keep a 20 year old 12c MOT'd and on the road vs, say, a Ferrari 308?
I get the argument that the 650 will probably always sit £20k above the 12c but who's to say the 12c will continue to plateau from here?
[/quote]
A key issue here is complexity.
There just ain't that much to go wrong on an old car; they are basically simple.
Engine, gearbox, brakes, lights.
On modern cars there are so many things to go wrong as the car ages - ECUs, cats, sensors, countless little motors, ABS, traction control, suspension adjustment, flappy paddle gearbox, the list is endless.
And it's all expensive stuff.
What will it cost to keep a 20 year old 12c MOT'd and on the road vs, say, a Ferrari 308?
Ferruccio said:
A key issue here is complexity.
There just ain't that much to go wrong on an old car; they are basically simple.
Engine, gearbox, brakes, lights.
On modern cars there are so many things to go wrong as the car ages - ECUs, cats, sensors, countless little motors, ABS, traction control, suspension adjustment, flappy paddle gearbox, the list is endless.
And it's all expensive stuff.
What will it cost to keep a 20 year old 12c MOT'd and on the road vs, say, a Ferrari 308?
The 650s is only more complex in the suspension than other similar performance cars. That linked suspension is a bonus in the handling, and a burden when it comes to maintenance costs. McLarens have been quite poor at keeping their value compared to other performance cars, so whilst the wider market will be drawn up or down by concerns of ever-complex cars becoming a maintenance burden, where will the 650s (and other McLarens) sit in that trend?There just ain't that much to go wrong on an old car; they are basically simple.
Engine, gearbox, brakes, lights.
On modern cars there are so many things to go wrong as the car ages - ECUs, cats, sensors, countless little motors, ABS, traction control, suspension adjustment, flappy paddle gearbox, the list is endless.
And it's all expensive stuff.
What will it cost to keep a 20 year old 12c MOT'd and on the road vs, say, a Ferrari 308?
The comparison needs to be between cars of the same era rather than those which have gained 'classic' status, will a 650s be more expensive to run than a V12 Murcielago or a 485 GTB, and if not, should their value follow the same profile? Will my 570s hold it's value better than a 650s because it's got a simpler suspension system and no active aero...
Lets face it, McLaren have a disrespect for their clients. They demolished second hand prices by stuffing new cars on the dealerships, who then sold at heavy discounts. inevitably some didn't realise the discounts available were as heavy as they were, and I now know that despite the large discount I had on mine, it could have been a lot more. By killing second hand values immediately, they killed the exclusive tag and prices went down. We are still seeing this play out. Then they stuffed clients again by bringing out 500 650LT coupes, getting everyone to sign up and then announced the spider which flooded buyers capacity with very short times to delivery. Now there are more 675s for sale than 650s.
The only way this will end is for McLaren to adjust supply and demand to keep the machine 'exclusive' and in demand, but given their sales estimates this will not happen. This is why the 720 will struggle, because the premium to the depreciating 650 is too great and their supply at some point soon will exceed demand. 12C and 650s prices will only go up if 720s prices hold to Ferrari levels. That ain't going to happen.
They need to rethink their strategy and realise that the big profits McLaren made from the P1 were from limiting supply.
The only way this will end is for McLaren to adjust supply and demand to keep the machine 'exclusive' and in demand, but given their sales estimates this will not happen. This is why the 720 will struggle, because the premium to the depreciating 650 is too great and their supply at some point soon will exceed demand. 12C and 650s prices will only go up if 720s prices hold to Ferrari levels. That ain't going to happen.
They need to rethink their strategy and realise that the big profits McLaren made from the P1 were from limiting supply.
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