The Grand Tour 650S/720S Lap Times
Discussion
Why do these threads always draw the same three people? All of whom as biased beyond the point of transparency.
I love it when Rambo buys a new car and starts trashing his old ones; it is a welcome, semi-interesting interlude between interminable proselytizing for whatever his current stead happens to be.
I love it when Rambo buys a new car and starts trashing his old ones; it is a welcome, semi-interesting interlude between interminable proselytizing for whatever his current stead happens to be.
Yipper said:
HighwayStar said:
TP321 said:
The 720s lap time doesn’t surprise me...the company is not interested nor do they do any preparation to ensure that these tests go their way. They cars are provided with the wrong tyres and wrong set up, whilst the Italians do the exact opposite. After all, it’s the customer who will suffer with excess depreciation, whilst they pump out even more “special editions”...
Even the mighty 675lt is not immune..prices dropping to well under list now, with many languishing in the classifieds for months now.
Ever since Ron Denis left, McLaren is not McLaren. Bruce McLaren had nothing to do with the McLaren we knew in the 80s, 90s, and 00s...It was all Ron, and now that he is gone, they are left with a bunch of Arabs, who are only interested with volume production and endless variants of the same engine/chassis...
A very sorry state of affairs....
Same old same old from you... all that because TGT could be arsed to do their job properly. Ferrari turn up with a car so optimised no owners car would get near it.Even the mighty 675lt is not immune..prices dropping to well under list now, with many languishing in the classifieds for months now.
Ever since Ron Denis left, McLaren is not McLaren. Bruce McLaren had nothing to do with the McLaren we knew in the 80s, 90s, and 00s...It was all Ron, and now that he is gone, they are left with a bunch of Arabs, who are only interested with volume production and endless variants of the same engine/chassis...
A very sorry state of affairs....
The things with people like you and Yipper is it doesn’t matter to either of you if the 720 was 2 10ths slower than the Performante or even a bit faster... you’d still peddle your BS. You don’t like Mclaren, we get it.
Interestingly Evo, Top Gear Magazine and Road & Track have the 720S as their car of the year. TG & R&T had the 911 GT3 and Performante in the group as well... so what do you have to say about that then?
But you can't ignore the hard facts of today. McLaren keeps on churning out fast cars that are a disaster in the twisties.
The P1 was hyped to the rafters, but almost impossible to drive at the first sign of rain, and its gigantic 900bhp couldn't even get round the Ring in the dry under 7mins. Now, the 720S is slower than a 3-yearold GT-R Datsun round the Ring, and almost a whopping half-minute behind the Huracan Performante and GT2 RS at the same track.
To be clear, it's not just McLaren that is overhyped nonsense. Ferrari have the same problem. The mag and vlog reviews will bang on about scalpel steering and immense power, but the independent times on major tracks are a disaster. The 488 is even slower than the 720S round the track. While the LaFerrari with its immense 950bhp also failed to dip under 7mins at the Ring.
To summarize -- the facts do not lie. The laptimes do not match the hype. McLaren and Ferrari have a problem. They are falling further and further behind Lambo and Porsche. Behind the scenes, Macca and Fezza will be panicking.
Most will never go to the 'Ring or be able to push their chosen car even close to whatever lap time it could achieve. So what do you end up with, a few sad gits who spout nonsense like yeah, my Performante is the fastest whatever round the 'Ring, should've bought one of these its faster than yours... Is that what you do Yipper, say it to peoples faces, or just keyboard worrier it from wherever you are? Meanwhile everyone else just gets on and enjoy whatever they bought.
What I will say on a positive note is, thanks for actually bothering to reply. I'm sure more folk here would actually like to have a bit of dialogue with you.
Questions... W
hy throw in cars like the 720S and the 488 against the track focused Huracan Performante and GT2 RS?
McLaren and Ferrari have never claimed they were track cars. No one believes they are...
Why do you gauge a performance car by its 'Ring time and spend your time highlighting it to others at every opportunity that other cars fall short of the lap record car?
What happens if, say, incoming 488 GTO humbles the Performante's time.. Will you be here right behind the Ferrari, championing whatever is the hot thing of the moment?
Lastly, why will Macca and Fezza be panicking?
Just a point re Mclarens not being good in the twisties, AMS mag do a fastest lap vid - I watch them on youtube and they have the lap times listed. A 570S was quickest for quite a while, beating 650s and GT3RS etc etc. The 650s was also very quick, so they can't be that bad.
Anyway, they are road cars, so do you really care if they are a few tenths slower round a circuit. Tyre type & pressure can change a laptime by seconds.
Also, wasn't the 720S time was as tested by a magazine, has the Performante been, or are people comparing a factory supported test with a magazine test? Bet the magazine would be 10-20 seconds slower.
Other circuit wise, the 720s beat the Performante round Sachenring & Willow Springs circuits if it matters to potential buyers.
BTW I don't own a McLaren or a Lamborghini, but an old Aston Martin that wouldn't see which way those cars went on a circuit, but I try not to let that bother me too much!
Anyway, they are road cars, so do you really care if they are a few tenths slower round a circuit. Tyre type & pressure can change a laptime by seconds.
Also, wasn't the 720S time was as tested by a magazine, has the Performante been, or are people comparing a factory supported test with a magazine test? Bet the magazine would be 10-20 seconds slower.
Other circuit wise, the 720s beat the Performante round Sachenring & Willow Springs circuits if it matters to potential buyers.
BTW I don't own a McLaren or a Lamborghini, but an old Aston Martin that wouldn't see which way those cars went on a circuit, but I try not to let that bother me too much!
t stirring. The Mclarens are fast, they always have been. Now whether they are necessarily better cars to drive is quite another matter.Yipper said:
........
They are falling further and further behind Lambo and Porsche. Behind the scenes, Macca and Fezza will be panicking.
And yet, despite Lamborghini being a manufacture for 55 years, McLaren as the new boys on the block sold just about as many cars as Lamborghini in 2017 and are on track to sell more performance cars than them in 2018. They are falling further and further behind Lambo and Porsche. Behind the scenes, Macca and Fezza will be panicking.
As a performance car manufacturer who's raison d’être is to sell cars, they are hardly 'falling further and further behind Lamborghini and Porsche', and as such, I'm really not convinced they'll be panicking in Woking on the back of your 'facts' and some dodgy lap times on an TV entertainment show.
You should be more worried about the prospects for Lamborghini, propped up by a re-badged Audi SUV and with the inevitability of the next Huracan / R8 using an Audi turbo engine. They're doomed I tell thee.....
The Surveyor said:
And yet, despite Lamborghini being a manufacture for 55 years, McLaren as the new boys on the block sold just about as many cars as Lamborghini in 2017 and are on track to sell more performance cars than them in 2018.
...And you think thats a good thing??...Bye bye residuals...
...And you think thats a good thing??...Bye bye residuals...
TP321 said:
The Surveyor said:
And yet, despite Lamborghini being a manufacture for 55 years, McLaren as the new boys on the block sold just about as many cars as Lamborghini in 2017 and are on track to sell more performance cars than them in 2018.
...And you think thats a good thing??...Bye bye residuals...
...And you think thats a good thing??...Bye bye residuals...
TP321 said:
The Surveyor said:
And yet, despite Lamborghini being a manufacture for 55 years, McLaren as the new boys on the block sold just about as many cars as Lamborghini in 2017 and are on track to sell more performance cars than them in 2018.
...And you think thats a good thing??...Bye bye residuals...If the only factor in your decision making when buying a 'toy' is it's potential value when you come to discard it, then regardless of how sad that makes you, your options certainly don't include Lamborghini either, despite any claimed prowess on the Grand Tour track. The Performante values will match the LT value profile over time, the value of the 'normal' Huracan is following a similar profile to the other McLaren offerings. You're kidding yourself if you think Lamborghini are really any different to McLaren on residuals.
If you limit your options to 'investments' you either play the big-money game to buy endless cooking Porsches to secure your place in the next round of GT3 RS R Turbo GT2 Touring allocation, or you buy a Ferrari.
I don't like any of the current Ferrari or indeed the image that surrounds the brand, I can't afford to play the Porsche game, I wanted something more 'driver' focussed than a DB11 despite having no interest in any Top Gear lap times, so I bought a 570s with absolutely no regrets.
Jules360 said:
Yes. See RL. 3 years of going on about how the 650 is the world's best car blah blah blah, he's now gone and bought a Lambo and now we will have every thread devoted to that being the world's best car. Until he buys something else.
Don't panic. Keeping 650S spider alongside performante coupe until the next LT arrives.Too good to sell at today's bargain prices so more reason to keep
cc8s said:
Why do these threads always draw the same three people? All of whom as biased beyond the point of transparency.
I love it when Rambo buys a new car and starts trashing his old ones; it is a welcome, semi-interesting interlude between interminable proselytizing for whatever his current stead happens to be.
Find me a quote trashing the 650S ?????I love it when Rambo buys a new car and starts trashing his old ones; it is a welcome, semi-interesting interlude between interminable proselytizing for whatever his current stead happens to be.
I have no bias or loyalty to a particular brand and openly stated I personally don't like the 720S even though I like McLaren brand in general.
Whilst Ferrari is the safest investment I'm disappointed by their current range.
If Huracan performante is the last normally aspirated engine values will follow 458 speciale and why a certain Tony on YouTube won't swap a performante for a speciale despite being a Ferrari fanboy and lambo hater
I can't think of a past car I have ever trashed !
red_duke said:
RamboLambo said:
Don't panic. Keeping 650S spider alongside performante coupe until the next LT arrives.
Too good to sell at today'sbargaindepreciated prices so more reason to keep
Too good to sell at today's
Yipper said:
To summarize -- the facts do not lie. The laptimes do not match the hype. McLaren and Ferrari have a problem. They are falling further and further behind Lambo and Porsche. Behind the scenes, Macca and Fezza will be panicking.
And I think I'll take Chris Harris at his word when he drove the 720s back to back with a Performante at the same track on the same day
and all for the docile non track focused 720s, so I really doubt McLaren are panicking....
RamboLambo said:
cc8s said:
Why do these threads always draw the same three people? All of whom as biased beyond the point of transparency.
I love it when Rambo buys a new car and starts trashing his old ones; it is a welcome, semi-interesting interlude between interminable proselytizing for whatever his current stead happens to be.
Find me a quote trashing the 650S ?????I love it when Rambo buys a new car and starts trashing his old ones; it is a welcome, semi-interesting interlude between interminable proselytizing for whatever his current stead happens to be.
I have no bias or loyalty to a particular brand and openly stated I personally don't like the 720S even though I like McLaren brand in general.
Whilst Ferrari is the safest investment I'm disappointed by their current range.
If Huracan performante is the last normally aspirated engine values will follow 458 speciale and why a certain Tony on YouTube won't swap a performante for a speciale despite being a Ferrari fanboy and lambo hater
I can't think of a past car I have ever trashed !
At tis level it's horses for courses. I had every intention of buying a 12c until i drove one. When i did, I really didn't enjoy it, I found the paddles too small and fiddly, the noise muted and it gave me a back ache, (as did the 570s i had for a day). My 458 Italia and subsequent Spider are in my opinion wonferful
Others will not agree and that's fine. Doesn't make them the trolls you make unbelievers out to be.
The Surveyor said:
I think it shows Yappers predictions of panic at Woking are as accurate as all his others. It also shows that there are enough people who can see beyond predicted residuals to buy the car they desire.
If the only factor in your decision making when buying a 'toy' is it's potential value when you come to discard it, then regardless of how sad that makes you, your options certainly don't include Lamborghini either, despite any claimed prowess on the Grand Tour track. The Performante values will match the LT value profile over time, the value of the 'normal' Huracan is following a similar profile to the other McLaren offerings. You're kidding yourself if you think Lamborghini are really any different to McLaren on residuals.
If you limit your options to 'investments' you either play the big-money game to buy endless cooking Porsches to secure your place in the next round of GT3 RS R Turbo GT2 Touring allocation, or you buy a Ferrari.
I don't like any of the current Ferrari or indeed the image that surrounds the brand, I can't afford to play the Porsche game, I wanted something more 'driver' focussed than a DB11 despite having no interest in any Top Gear lap times, so I bought a 570s with absolutely no regrets.
You are totally wrong....If the only factor in your decision making when buying a 'toy' is it's potential value when you come to discard it, then regardless of how sad that makes you, your options certainly don't include Lamborghini either, despite any claimed prowess on the Grand Tour track. The Performante values will match the LT value profile over time, the value of the 'normal' Huracan is following a similar profile to the other McLaren offerings. You're kidding yourself if you think Lamborghini are really any different to McLaren on residuals.
If you limit your options to 'investments' you either play the big-money game to buy endless cooking Porsches to secure your place in the next round of GT3 RS R Turbo GT2 Touring allocation, or you buy a Ferrari.
I don't like any of the current Ferrari or indeed the image that surrounds the brand, I can't afford to play the Porsche game, I wanted something more 'driver' focussed than a DB11 despite having no interest in any Top Gear lap times, so I bought a 570s with absolutely no regrets.
Lets use Lamborghini as an example. The Aventador has not dipped below £200k even though it was out in 2012 with a 260k price tag. £60k over 6 years is record breaking residuals for a non limited production car.
The Huracan coupe, which came out in 2014 with a list of £180 and £200k specced, is now £150k. The equivalent McLaren - the 650s would have been £220k with spec (Coupe not Spider) and thats £130k now, whilst the Spyder would have cost £240k and is worth £150k now.
There is no question about it - McLaren residuals are the worst by a country mile...and they remain the most difficult cars to sell on..
And you will see this now with the 720s...
TP321 said:
You are totally wrong....
.....
There is no question about it - McLaren residuals are the worst by a country mile.....
.
I'm not "totally wrong" I just have a different view on what is a "country mile". By your own figures we're talking about £20k difference over 4 years, £5k a year difference. If you think that is significant enough to sway your decision when buying a £200k car, then fair enough. In my opinion it's not. .....
There is no question about it - McLaren residuals are the worst by a country mile.....
.
Whether you're using distorted lap times or notional differences in residues, if you don't buy the car that makes you happiest for such dull and sensible reasons, more fool you.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2018-mclaren-720s-f...
4s faster than a 650s, and even on standard road tyres it was faster than a performante on its special rubber.....
4s faster than a 650s, and even on standard road tyres it was faster than a performante on its special rubber.....
The Surveyor said:
I'm not "totally wrong" I just have a different view on what is a "country mile". By your own figures we're talking about £20k difference over 4 years, £5k a year difference. If you think that is significant enough to sway your decision when buying a £200k car, then fair enough. In my opinion it's not.
Whether you're using distorted lap times or notional differences in residues, if you don't buy the car that makes you happiest for such dull and sensible reasons, more fool you.
Well I am glad that you have finally agreed that McLaren residuals lag well behind those of Ferrari and Lamborghini..;);)Whether you're using distorted lap times or notional differences in residues, if you don't buy the car that makes you happiest for such dull and sensible reasons, more fool you.
So if you want to spend your money on the one that will lose the most, be most difficult to sell, travel the furthest to service, be the most expensive to fix due to lack of specialists, and absolutely must buy their expensive warranty every year, .....be my guest, buy the McLaren. At least you can say that you examined the facts and made the rational, correct decision....
Did someone mention fool?
TP321 said:
The Surveyor said:
I'm not "totally wrong" I just have a different view on what is a "country mile". By your own figures we're talking about £20k difference over 4 years, £5k a year difference. If you think that is significant enough to sway your decision when buying a £200k car, then fair enough. In my opinion it's not.
Whether you're using distorted lap times or notional differences in residues, if you don't buy the car that makes you happiest for such dull and sensible reasons, more fool you.
Well I am glad that you have finally agreed that McLaren residuals lag well behind those of Ferrari and Lamborghini..;);)Whether you're using distorted lap times or notional differences in residues, if you don't buy the car that makes you happiest for such dull and sensible reasons, more fool you.
So if you want to spend your money on the one that will lose the most, be most difficult to sell, travel the furthest to service, be the most expensive to fix due to lack of specialists, and absolutely must buy their expensive warranty every year, .....be my guest, buy the McLaren. At least you can say that you examined the facts and made the rational, correct decision....
Did someone mention fool?
So again... Should he buy a Lamborghini or Ferrari he doesn't want instead of a McLaren? If so why?
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