720s Below 200K Already

[flemke]

12pack said:

flemke said:

. Is there really that much of a difference between a 997 and a 991 and a 992, or a 650 and a 720? Yet the car manufacturers do everything they can to induce us to get on that hamster wheel and buy the newest one, own it for two years then sell it at a £75k loss and buy another, which one would own for another two years. Rinse, repeat....
Therefore, if you want to have a different (I would say better, but obviously that is subjective) experience, the answer is not to start running on the manufacturers' new car hamster wheel, but instead to consider older things with less (but still more than enough) performance and definitely more character.

Fully agree with you there.

My only point was that I did see a rather large difference in performance, even on the road, with a lighter car using a smaller turbo motor (and not just compared to the Aston). That performance is character in itself.

Lighter weight is always better. For the last 30 years, with few exceptions, each new generation of car has been wider and heavier than its predecessor, and that has been part of the systematic problem with the newer models.

[Wilmslowboy]

12pack said:

“The British sports car manufacturer retained strong sales figures in the domestic market, with 49.2% more cars sold in the UK than in 2017, thanks in part to new dealerships opening in Leeds and Hatfield.”. ??
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mclare...

The 49% UK growth number is widely quoted, probably a press release direct from McLaren.

This doesn't correspond with cars registered and on the road (according to the SMMT data)

Suggesting an increase of sales (in the UK) of 10% (56 units more than 2017)

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrati...

Perhaps the Mclaren press release includes orders/ deposits??

[s2000db]

Or unsold cars sitting at dealers....

[isaldiri]

flemke said:

ighter weight is always better. For the last 30 years, with few exceptions, each new generation of car has been wider and heavier than its predecessor, and that has been part of the systematic problem with the newer models.

Actually a 720 is lighter than it's predecessor ie a 650 if comparing like for like spec. Not a whole lot lighter admittedly but lighter nevertheless. It's also (unfortunately) a good bit wider though.

[ralphrj]

Wilmslowboy said:

The 49% UK growth number is widely quoted, probably a press release direct from McLaren.

It was.

McLaren Press Release said:

McLaren’s UK domestic market remained strong, achieving a 49.2 per cent year-on-year growth.

Wilmslowboy said:

This doesn't correspond with cars registered and on the road (according to the SMMT data)

Suggesting an increase of sales (in the UK) of 10% (56 units more than 2017)

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrati...

Correct. SMMT data is for the number of cars registered as new with DVLA.

Wilmslowboy said:

Perhaps the Mclaren press release includes orders/ deposits??

Maybe. I can think of a couple of other possibilities:

1. Registration figures will include cars McLaren (or their dealers) register themselves. Perhaps they registered lots of cars as demonstrators last year compared to this year?

2. Another option is that McLaren are selling cars through their UK dealers to people that aren't registering them in the UK with DVLA (export market).

[ralphrj]

s2000db said:

Or unsold cars sitting at dealers....

I think you have the answer.

I expected those to be eliminated as cars aren't truly sold until they are delivered to the end customer. However, that is based on my experience working at a dealer group that was owned outright by the manufacturer which might have resulted in a different accounting treatment.

Having read the accounting policies in the most recent financial statements of McLaren Automotive it states that they consider a car to be sold at the point of despatch to the dealer, when the car is imported into the destination country, or when the car is received by the dealer.

For cars delivered in the UK these will all happen on the same day.

Therefore, the discrepancy is due to cars sitting unsold at the UK dealers.

[flemke]

isaldiri said:

flemke said:

ighter weight is always better. For the last 30 years, with few exceptions, each new generation of car has been wider and heavier than its predecessor, and that has been part of the systematic problem with the newer models.

Actually a 720 is lighter than it's predecessor ie a 650 if comparing like for like spec. Not a whole lot lighter admittedly but lighter nevertheless. It's also (unfortunately) a good bit wider though.

An exception to the rule, I think you would agree.
In the last few years sports car makers have starting talking about reducing the weight of their cars. Nonetheless they have continued down the cul-de-sac in which the only things that matter are lap-times, looks, and emissions. Hence the new Alpine is such a breath of fresh air, has been so highly praised by thoughtful reviewers, and unsurprisingly is produced by a company that is very much outside the club of "supercar" makers..
IINM, you recently posted somewhere about the greatness of the 993 RS CS. I couldn't agree more. The modern Ferraris, McLarens, Lambos, and indeed Porsches have twice as much power and much faster lap-times, but when it comes to driving pleasure in the real world, it's not even close.

[flemke]

ralphrj said:

s2000db said:

Or unsold cars sitting at dealers....

I think you have the answer.

I expected those to be eliminated as cars aren't truly sold until they are delivered to the end customer. However, that is based on my experience working at a dealer group that was owned outright by the manufacturer which might have resulted in a different accounting treatment.

Having read the accounting policies in the most recent financial statements of McLaren Automotive it states that they consider a car to be sold at the point of despatch to the dealer, when the car is imported into the destination country, or when the car is received by the dealer.

For cars delivered in the UK these will all happen on the same day.

Therefore, the discrepancy is due to cars sitting unsold at the UK dealers.

At least in my experience, McLaren will not deliver a new customer car to the dealer until the customer has paid the dealer and the dealer in turn paid McLaren (which can be pretty bloody annoying when the dealer subsequently PDIs the car, finds a problem, and the factory take months to deliver the necessary replacement part for the car that the owner paid for months earlier but has never been able to use).
AFAIK, the McLaren dealer network comprises only independently-owned companies. Perhaps the factory do not require their dealers to pay them for speculative or demo inventory until it is bought by a customer, but that would be surprising.

[12pack]

flemke said:

An exception to the rule, I think you would agree.
In the last few years sports car makers have starting talking about reducing the weight of their cars. Nonetheless they have continued down the cul-de-sac in which the only things that matter are lap-times, looks, and emissions. Hence the new Alpine is such a breath of fresh air, has been so highly praised by thoughtful reviewers, and unsurprisingly is produced by a company that is very much outside the club of "supercar" makers..
IINM, you recently posted somewhere about the greatness of the 993 RS CS. I couldn't agree more. The modern Ferraris, McLarens, Lambos, and indeed Porsches have twice as much power and much faster lap-times, but when it comes to driving pleasure in the real world, it's not even close.

Sure, but I assume the reason we are all here and not on the MX-5 forum is because absolute performance matters to us, too. At least it does for me.

[_Leg_]

MDL111 said:

_Leg_ said:

footsoldier said:

...but not really in a supercar mood at the moment.

Was just browsing around and saw your statement and it struck home with me as I'm feeling the same way, possibly for different reasons.

I don't mean not owning supercars, I love the ones I have, but even with some relative bargains around at the moment I just cant get enthused about anything (not a lot of the current stuff excites me). I suspect it's a combination of having all the cars I ever wanted/more than I can use and a feeling a big change is afoot and not wanting to buy anything current and then find out something ground breaking has arrived (i.e. hybrid, electric or whatever).

I suspect if something genuinely 'next generation' does arrive from one of the manufacturers I'll treat all my current cars as my 'classic' collection going forwards and just focus on one new car that I change every 2-3 years, something I've never done before as I'm a hoarder. It just feels like there's a new car every two minutes these days (I've been watching Performante prices and then......the new Huracan is announced and I think 'err, eh, what, so will there be a new new performante? Oh sod it, my brain cant keep up. I stick'.

It seems pointless swapping for something new when something newer will be announced next week.

Edited by _Leg_ on Tuesday 8th January 12:37

Tbh to me it seems pointless to swap if you like what you have .... don’t understand all these cars being for sale with a couple of k on the odo. As if all these GT3 etc buyers have really gotten to know the car during that short an ownership period. Sign of the times (probably to change soon once every change costs you 50k plus again ....)

Yup. My Ferraris both have more than 20,000 miles on. Sod it. I would rather drive them and keep them than look at them to retain a bit more value in them so I can buy the latest thing and not drive that too.

Owning classics changes your mindset too. I cant buy into the 'latest is best' mentality because if I did, I couldn't own an old car as any technical test tells me the old ones are not as good as the new ones. But they are much better in so many ways. Not the 'always starting, always getting to the destination, having aircon and not pissing oil all over the shop' kind of way, I'll admit, but in the, 'this feels ace' kind of way.

Thats the only reason I can suffer owning a V8 Lotus Esprit. F*cking thing. But, pop up headlights. Hahaha, yay.

I'm not sure what the point is now, as so many threads I get involved in seem to end up, but, I suspect the point is that the wrong sentiment is, 'Oh no, 720s are below 200k now' and that the correct sentiment is, 'Ace, I can get a 720s for under 200k now and bugger bothering about the mileage'.

Maybe?

[_Leg_]

12pack said:

flemke said:

An exception to the rule, I think you would agree.
In the last few years sports car makers have starting talking about reducing the weight of their cars. Nonetheless they have continued down the cul-de-sac in which the only things that matter are lap-times, looks, and emissions. Hence the new Alpine is such a breath of fresh air, has been so highly praised by thoughtful reviewers, and unsurprisingly is produced by a company that is very much outside the club of "supercar" makers..
IINM, you recently posted somewhere about the greatness of the 993 RS CS. I couldn't agree more. The modern Ferraris, McLarens, Lambos, and indeed Porsches have twice as much power and much faster lap-times, but when it comes to driving pleasure in the real world, it's not even close.

Sure, but I assume the reason we are all here and not on the MX-5 forum is because absolute performance matters to us, too. At least it does for me.

Nope, bigger budgets. Smaller cocks. ;-)

[footsoldier]

flemke said:

An exception to the rule, I think you would agree.
In the last few years sports car makers have starting talking about reducing the weight of their cars. Nonetheless they have continued down the cul-de-sac in which the only things that matter are lap-times, looks, and emissions. Hence the new Alpine is such a breath of fresh air, has been so highly praised by thoughtful reviewers, and unsurprisingly is produced by a company that is very much outside the club of "supercar" makers..
IINM, you recently posted somewhere about the greatness of the 993 RS CS. I couldn't agree more. The modern Ferraris, McLarens, Lambos, and indeed Porsches have twice as much power and much faster lap-times, but when it comes to driving pleasure in the real world, it's not even close.

And, for those of us who actuallly do try to use and abuse these cars, it’s become very obvious that the arms race is being won at the expense of the customer, literally.

The pressure to keep coming up with a newer faster version is being relieved by new tyres CupR that wear twice as fast and cost twice as much as Cup2; Aventador SV that maybe does 100miles to a tank of fuel; the 720 has similar fuel consumption, and will go through a set of discs and pads in 20 laps of Spa. The GT2RS has a bolt on water spray tank, which in hot weather will get you less than 25miles on a track at full speed, otherwise you lose 70bhp and you’ll be chasing 3RS which handle a lot better etc. Wouldn’t even think about the costs of a day out in a 488!

My Alpine arrives in March :-)

Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 9th January 00:10

[isaldiri]

flemke said:

IINM, you recently posted somewhere about the greatness of the 993 RS CS.

Well spotted I did indeed and it's one of 2 cars I still have a real interest to add one day (nsx 02 facelift being the other)....

Regarding the Alpine, I occasionally do wonder if it's not something that the automotive journalists have collectively got it in their heads to praise for whatever reason not necessarily related to it's actual abilities. I recall a few years ago most of those same journalists were gushing in their praise for the cayman gt4 (for seemingly little other reason than the manual box) which while a very neat and tidy package, it also personally left me very cold and was nothing as what the reviews had suggested. That said, the Alpine definitely is a couple hundred kg lighter than most competitors and with that kind of weight difference it's got a pretty big headstart already.

The real shame is why someone (anyone!) else hasn't come up with a similar 1200kg car, ideally NA and with a manual rather than yet another turbo, dual clutch lap time monster with the help of uber sticky short lifed tyres....

[_Leg_]

isaldiri said:

The real shame is why someone (anyone!) else hasn't come up with a similar 1200kg car, ideally NA and with a manual rather than yet another turbo, dual clutch lap time monster with the help of uber sticky short lifed tyres....

I have a 2017 Exige 350 Sport (ok its not NA but a supercharged V6) with nitron 3 way suspension and various other track mods. Seriously considering a Komotec 460bhp kit this spring.

Pretty much what you're looking for there. Spanking new car, £55k, mods so far (including a second set of forged wheels and track tyres, harnesses, big carbon wing and splitter etc) around £10k. Komotec kit, £10k.

£75k, 1100kgs, 460bhp, manual box. Goes like the clappers, corners like a Yorkshireman chasing a fiver on a gusty day.

None of the big supercar manufacturers will ever do it, unfortunately.

[12pack]

_Leg_ said:

Nope, bigger budgets. Smaller cocks. ;-)

Yep I can confirm that at least one of those is true...

[flemke]

isaldiri said:

flemke said:

IINM, you recently posted somewhere about the greatness of the 993 RS CS.

Well spotted I did indeed and it's one of 2 cars I still have a real interest to add one day (nsx 02 facelift being the other)....

Regarding the Alpine, I occasionally do wonder if it's not something that the automotive journalists have collectively got it in their heads to praise for whatever reason not necessarily related to it's actual abilities. I recall a few years ago most of those same journalists were gushing in their praise for the cayman gt4 (for seemingly little other reason than the manual box) which while a very neat and tidy package, it also personally left me very cold and was nothing as what the reviews had suggested. That said, the Alpine definitely is a couple hundred kg lighter than most competitors and with that kind of weight difference it's got a pretty big headstart already.

The real shame is why someone (anyone!) else hasn't come up with a similar 1200kg car, ideally NA and with a manual rather than yet another turbo, dual clutch lap time monster with the help of uber sticky short lifed tyres....

Isn't that what TVR are hoping to do? The obstacles they have encountered illustrate why such a project is problematical. The fixed costs required to design, produce and sell a road-legal car are big, and the size of the market for what you describe and we both would like is small. It really requires a big car company that can exploit resources (factories, platforms, switch-gear, dealer networks) that are primarily used for larger volume models. The best we can hope for are probably such as the MX-5, GT86, and forthcoming Supra, in addition to the A110 and various Lotuses.

[Taffy66]

A couple of weeks ago in rather typical impulsive fashion i bought my first Ferrari unseen..! It was with some trepidation i awaited delivery last Saturday morning..My fears were however totally unfounded as i'm totally smitten with my new 458 Italia.
The 458 is the pinnacle of supercars IMO in terms of character, glorious noise and involvement..The latest supercars have lost character, noise and involvement in their quest for ever faster Ring times..They have twin turbo pace which can never be savoured on any public highways safely which makes them very frustrating cars to own IMO.
I love driving my 458 and can see myself keeping it forever as i believe all new twin turbo supercars have just become too single minded to be able to enjoy fully.

Edited by Taffy66 on Wednesday 9th January 09:00

[br d]

Taffy66 said:

The latest supercars have lost character, noise and involvement in their quest for ever faster Ring times..They have twin turbo pace which can never be savoured on any public highways safely which makes them very frustrating cars to own IMO.
I love driving my 458 and can see myself keeping it forever as i believe all new twin turbo supercars have just become too single minded to be able to enjoy fully.

Edited by Taffy66 on Wednesday 9th January 09:00

Congratulations on the 458.
I couldn't agree more with your other point. Having owned both a 650S and 720S I'm now in a 570 Spider. While it is a twin turbo car that you refer to it is just more fun to drive.
This may sound a bit arsey but you do sort of get used to owning supercars and it can get a bit normalised. The 570 has kicked started my interest again in a big way, I really look forward to getting out for a blast whenever the conditions are right.

It has less performance than my previous car but it still does 0 - 100 in 6 seconds, how much quicker do I need to go?
I have a loud exhaust on it and I can chuck it about with impunity.

Had you asked me a year ago I would have said "Always faster always faster!" but now I agree with others here, the race for top trumps is making things more technical than fun. I'm going to stop chasing the next thing for a while and just enjoy myself.

[isaldiri]

_Leg_ said:

I have a 2017 Exige 350 Sport (ok its not NA but a supercharged V6) with nitron 3 way suspension and various other track mods. Seriously considering a Komotec 460bhp kit this spring.

Pretty much what you're looking for there. Spanking new car, £55k, mods so far (including a second set of forged wheels and track tyres, harnesses, big carbon wing and splitter etc) around £10k. Komotec kit, £10k.

£75k, 1100kgs, 460bhp, manual box. Goes like the clappers, corners like a Yorkshireman chasing a fiver on a gusty day.

None of the big supercar manufacturers will ever do it, unfortunately.

I thought about the exige indeed but actually liked the evora more on the road despite it's weight. the 430 in particular is a mega car I think and the ohlins work fantastically well on the road. Exige would be great on track though I reckon.

[_Leg_]

isaldiri said:

_Leg_ said:

I have a 2017 Exige 350 Sport (ok its not NA but a supercharged V6) with nitron 3 way suspension and various other track mods. Seriously considering a Komotec 460bhp kit this spring.

Pretty much what you're looking for there. Spanking new car, £55k, mods so far (including a second set of forged wheels and track tyres, harnesses, big carbon wing and splitter etc) around £10k. Komotec kit, £10k.

£75k, 1100kgs, 460bhp, manual box. Goes like the clappers, corners like a Yorkshireman chasing a fiver on a gusty day.

None of the big supercar manufacturers will ever do it, unfortunately.

I thought about the exige indeed but actually liked the evora more on the road despite it's weight. the 430 in particular is a mega car I think and the ohlins work fantastically well on the road. Exige would be great on track though I reckon.

Yup, agree with your thoughts there.

I do use the Exige on the road, even did a Euro tour in it with the Lotus club in 2017, but I bought it specifically as a track car. IMO if you're going to do regular track days you want to be able to go at it hammer and tong and to do that a specific car (i.e. not a road car) is needed which can be easily insured on track and consumables and repairs are reasonable so you don't have to hold back. The only limitation should be your own ability/comfort zone in my mind as the fun of track days is learning and improving. Worrying about the car just ruins it.

Back to McLaren, after turning down a 600LT I seem to be still in McLaren's good books (even though I've never owned one) as I've just been invited to a factory tour. Is it worth going?

Edited by _Leg_ on Wednesday 9th January 12:02