What,Can and Should Mclaren be Doing About Protecting Resale

What,Can and Should Mclaren be Doing About Protecting Resale

Author
Discussion

fridaypassion

4,442 posts

169 months

Wednesday 15th May
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Just seen a 991.1 gt3 clubsport pop up on my facebook 106k. That would have been 136 last year. .1 GT3RS have dropped 100k in the last 2 years. Some people have taken an absolute bath with these "investor" GT products.

s2000db

800 posts

94 months

Wednesday 15th May
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In fairness, they’re only taking a bath because they paid overs...

Horses for courses as they say...

fridaypassion

4,442 posts

169 months

Wednesday 15th May
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Well yeah anyone paying the normal prices is always going to be ok although the new GT4 will be the first time buying one to flip will be a gamble. Largely because at overs it now sits you in a 570.

bertie

7,934 posts

225 months

Thursday 16th May
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The biggest factor here is the market talking itself down, and I'm really not sure what the manufacturer can do about that.

Juno

Original Poster:

3,261 posts

190 months

Thursday 16th May
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s2000db said:
Juno said:
The Surveyor said:
Juno said:
……..it’s as much to do with your passion about the brand and the dealer!
I'm not sure how that works, but good news on the incoming RS.

You need to be careful dispelling that myth though, once people think anybody can get a new GT Porsche the investors will leave the Porsche market and go on to other marques.
Well I’d not go as far to say anybody can walk on and get one and it’s always long wait to get a new car.

I just meant you don’t have to buy 20 cars to get one. I believe there are less than 100 RS WP cars coming though so fair to say pretty scarce!
It’s a Porsche 911, they’re not scarce... tongue out

Btw, you know the 991.2GT3 is the most common variant!
I know they are as common as muck,just as well that I have a nice very rare 991.2 batch 2 GT3RS WP with ITB's coming very soon.July build August delivery biggrin

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12pack

763 posts

109 months

Friday 17th May
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s2000db said:
It’s a Porsche 911, they’re not scarce... tongue out

The Surveyor

6,551 posts

178 months

Friday 17th May
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Juno said:
…….991.2 batch 2 GT3RS WP with ITB's....
Now I know that the '991' is a reference to the last 911 model, and that the '.2' reference means its the second version of that 991, and that the 'batch 2' is the second issue of that second version..... and that the 'WP' is Weissach Pack option on the RS which is effectively a 'track pack' option ticked on the option list. But what is / are ITB's ?

…. and people say the McLaren line up is confusing scratchchin

MDL111

3,451 posts

118 months

Friday 17th May
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Cheapest 650S is at a touch under 140k euros and cheapest 991 RS is also at c 140k euros. So both quite a bit below list (RS probably 50k and the 650 I am not sure but assume 100k ish) - not great but the difference is no longer as substantial as it was in the past. I wonder if German McL Dealers are better than their UK equivalents in terms of buying back cars/ servicing etc

MDL111

3,451 posts

118 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
Juno said:
…….991.2 batch 2 GT3RS WP with ITB's....
Now I know that the '991' is a reference to the last 911 model, and that the '.2' reference means its the second version of that 991, and that the 'batch 2' is the second issue of that second version..... and that the 'WP' is Weissach Pack option on the RS which is effectively a 'track pack' option ticked on the option list. But what is / are ITB's ?

…. and people say the McLaren line up is confusing scratchchin
individual throttle bodies I believe

isaldiri

4,508 posts

109 months

Friday 17th May
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The Surveyor said:
Now I know that the '991' is a reference to the last 911 model, and that the '.2' reference means its the second version of that 991, and that the 'batch 2' is the second issue of that second version..... and that the 'WP' is Weissach Pack option on the RS which is effectively a 'track pack' option ticked on the option list. But what is / are ITB's ?
Just the newest latest must have thing for a GT Porsche to make people with that feature able to be smug and sneer at prior cars without by being able to state it obsoletes the older engine.

For all that Mclaren are accused of having always turning out new models that supercede old ones, not even they had the same model effectively upgraded halfway through a production run. they would be slaughtered for killing residuals on the earlier owners if they had done so.....

Juno

Original Poster:

3,261 posts

190 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
fridaypassion said:
Just seen a 991.1 gt3 clubsport pop up on my facebook 106k. That would have been 136 last year. .1 GT3RS have dropped 100k in the last 2 years. Some people have taken an absolute bath with these "investor" GT products.
A 991.1 GT3 ClubSport was £101k list and about £116k optioned so at £106k I have no idea where you are coming from Lol

Juno

Original Poster:

3,261 posts

190 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
Juno said:
…….991.2 batch 2 GT3RS WP with ITB's....
Now I know that the '991' is a reference to the last 911 model, and that the '.2' reference means its the second version of that 991, and that the 'batch 2' is the second issue of that second version..... and that the 'WP' is Weissach Pack option on the RS which is effectively a 'track pack' option ticked on the option list. But what is / are ITB's ?

…. and people say the McLaren line up is confusing scratchchin
Individual throttle bodies which they have designed into the car order to meet the new stricter emissions law! Apparently gives sharper throttle response biggrin

Hold on this was the Mclaren what can they do,let’s get back on track!!!

Won’t be an issue for Mclaren going forward as with turbo engines it’s much easier to work around the problems!

Just realised that’s a Mclaren benefit as surely all performance cars will probably be forced to go turbo at some point!

P must be bearing the end of the power output for reliable NA



Edited by Juno on Friday 17th May 10:06

The Surveyor

6,551 posts

178 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
Juno said:
Hold on this was the Mclaren what can they do,let’s get back on track!!!

Won’t be an issue for Mclaren going forward as with turbo engines it’s much easier to work around the problems!

Just realised that’s a Mclaren benefit as surely all performance cars will probably be forced to go turbo at some point!

P must be bearing the end of the power output for reliable NA
I agree, I think Porsche, Audi (R8), and Lamborghini will be forced down the forced-induction route to meet the emissions regs for all their products. There is plenty of chatter on the Porsche forums about the impact on power and noise of the new filters which are needed for the ever-more stringent emissions, and that's only going to get worse. Porsche are going to need to be very cute to keep the distinction between the Carrera and Turbo cars and the 'investment' GT cars when they no longer have that perceived Mezger link and everything uses a similar turbo engine.

Overall though, it's won't impact significantly on any projected resale value. Like Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce and many others including McLaren, there is an established perception that they will suffer 'normal' depreciation, and that Ferrari and Porsche are all cast-iron investments. Of course they're not, but that's the perception, nothing to do with the product or the production numbers, it's just that fickle market perception. What McLaren need to do is engineer some resale value into their range to manipulate the market in a similar way. Ferrari have made some terrible fragile and unreliable cars yet they are still 'investments', Porsche make 'rare' cars by the thousand, yet they are still 'investments', it's all to do with the marketing IMHO.

nw942

261 posts

46 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
Juno said:
Individual throttle bodies which they have designed into the car order to meet the new stricter emissions law! Apparently gives sharper throttle response biggrin

Hold on this was the Mclaren what can they do,let’s get back on track!!!

Won’t be an issue for Mclaren going forward as with turbo engines it’s much easier to work around the problems!

Just realised that’s a Mclaren benefit as surely all performance cars will probably be forced to go turbo at some point!

P must be bearing the end of the power output for reliable NA



Edited by Juno on Friday 17th May 10:06
I'm sure they've still got plenty of ideas to increase power whilst meeting emissions.

But if something like mild-hybrid gives them the performance gains at a lower cost they will surely go down that path?




DeltaOne

516 posts

154 months

Friday 17th May
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The Surveyor said:
What McLaren need to do is engineer some resale value into their range to manipulate the market in a similar way. Ferrari have made some terrible fragile and unreliable cars yet they are still 'investments', Porsche make 'rare' cars by the thousand, yet they are still 'investments', it's all to do with the marketing IMHO.
Not sure how many Porsche’s can be viewed as investments, and with the recent ramp up in production (just look at 991 volumes vs 997 for example, with GT2 RS particularly interesting) it might be even harder to see them in that way in the future. Porsche made just over a quarter of a million cars last year. Meanwhile Ferrari still make under 10,000, get some amazing returns on limited models, but others could never be looked at as investments, For example I have no idea how much my Lusso has depreciated since I registered it in March, but it wouldn’t be pretty.

Re McLaren, as others have said in some respects they’ve done phenomenally well from a standing start in 8 years BUT they now make about half as many cars each year as Ferrari. That’s too many from simple supply and demand perspective, so its pretty easy to see why they depreciate so much - Ferrari is a brand like no other in car terms, totally untouchable in brand value terms, and so has a much larger following than McLaren can dream of, yet McLaren already produce 50% as many cars and seem to be developing new models every time you turn your back. Can’t lead to anything other than nasty depreciation.


MDL111

3,451 posts

118 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
DeltaOne said:
The Surveyor said:
What McLaren need to do is engineer some resale value into their range to manipulate the market in a similar way. Ferrari have made some terrible fragile and unreliable cars yet they are still 'investments', Porsche make 'rare' cars by the thousand, yet they are still 'investments', it's all to do with the marketing IMHO.
Not sure how many Porsche’s can be viewed as investments, and with the recent ramp up in production (just look at 991 volumes vs 997 for example, with GT2 RS particularly interesting) it might be even harder to see them in that way in the future. Porsche made just over a quarter of a million cars last year. Meanwhile Ferrari still make under 10,000, get some amazing returns on limited models, but others could never be looked at as investments, For example I have no idea how much my Lusso has depreciated since I registered it in March, but it wouldn’t be pretty.

Re McLaren, as others have said in some respects they’ve done phenomenally well from a standing start in 8 years BUT they now make about half as many cars each year as Ferrari. That’s too many from simple supply and demand perspective, so its pretty easy to see why they depreciate so much - Ferrari is a brand like no other in car terms, totally untouchable in brand value terms, and so has a much larger following than McLaren can dream of, yet McLaren already produce 50% as many cars and seem to be developing new models every time you turn your back. Can’t lead to anything other than nasty depreciation.
it would be interesting to compare numbers of 458/488 vs 991 GT3/RS vs McL 12C/650/720 (only to date as it overlaps F8) - not perfect in terms of production cycles, but probably reasonably close.

Edit: and I agree Ferrari is in a league of its own in terms of brand value

The Surveyor

6,551 posts

178 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
nw942 said:
I'm sure they've still got plenty of ideas to increase power whilst meeting emissions.

But if something like mild-hybrid gives them the performance gains at a lower cost they will surely go down that path?
Porsche already make plenty of turbocharged 911's, not just the 'Turbo' and the GT2 but everything else in the range is forced-induction with the exception of the 'GT3' versions, and I'll put my hat on the 992 GT3 having a turbo too. They won't do a hybrid, but they will do an all-electric 911 in the very near future IMHO.

Regardless, the resale value of the 911 isn't linked to performance, adding performance doesn't matter to the investors, it's all about the mystique of their GT cars, and then letting that illusion filter down to their ordinary models. On paper, the GT3 RS are only marginally quicker than the cooking 992 Carrera 4s (0-60 of 3.2 against 3.4, and 193mph against 190mph), and all are trounced by the Turbo S (0-60 2.9 & 205mph), yet only the GT versions are seen as 'investments' with the other cars suffering almost normal depreciation. The Porsche marketing machine has convinced buyers that the 911 you really want isn't the fastest accelerating, isn't the one with the highest top speed, isn't the one with the best equipment, isn't the one with 4-seat practicality, isn't the one you can use everyday, its the GT3's, the special one, the unobtainable one.

It doesn't matter how much better the 600LT is than a GT3 RS, if everybody who wants a 600LT can get one, and can potentially get one at a discount there will never be flattening of that depreciation curve, simple supply & demand economics. McLaren need to engineer increased demand, they need to sharpen up their marketing and they need to get to a place where there are more buyers wanting their cars than there are cars. Its the same problem Aston Martin have, Bentley has, Rolls Royce has, Lotus has, BMW has... it's not an exclusively McLaren problem despite what the OP would suggest.

The Surveyor

6,551 posts

178 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
DeltaOne said:
Not sure how many Porsche’s can be viewed as investments, and with the recent ramp up in production (just look at 991 volumes vs 997 for example, with GT2 RS particularly interesting) it might be even harder to see them in that way in the future. Porsche made just over a quarter of a million cars last year. Meanwhile Ferrari still make under 10,000, get some amazing returns on limited models, but others could never be looked at as investments, For example I have no idea how much my Lusso has depreciated since I registered it in March, but it wouldn’t be pretty.

Re McLaren, as others have said in some respects they’ve done phenomenally well from a standing start in 8 years BUT they now make about half as many cars each year as Ferrari. That’s too many from simple supply and demand perspective, so its pretty easy to see why they depreciate so much - Ferrari is a brand like no other in car terms, totally untouchable in brand value terms, and so has a much larger following than McLaren can dream of, yet McLaren already produce 50% as many cars and seem to be developing new models every time you turn your back. Can’t lead to anything other than nasty depreciation.
I use the term 'investment' whenever anybody is drawn into paying 'overs' for a production car. It's less to do with supply (as you say, they have made double the number of 991 GT2 RS cars than they did the last GT2) but more to do with the demand. Collectors were paying over £600k for a GT2 RS which was madness, but only because they were convinced they would make money from them, not because they were going to enjoy driving them. That 'investment' rush filters down and secures the value of lesser GT cars, and then filters down further to bolster the value of the other 911 and Porsche cars, all due to that recent brand perception. A perception engineered by very clever marketing IMHO.

Ferrari are different, their 'brand' value has much greater depth as you say. They're like Rolex in the watch world, they make loads but are still seen as exclusive. Its a very clever trick, and again like Rolex, some of the products hold their value better than others but that isn't allowed to dilute the brand




DeltaOne

516 posts

154 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
I use the term 'investment' whenever anybody is drawn into paying 'overs' for a production car. It's less to do with supply (as you say, they have made double the number of 991 GT2 RS cars than they did the last GT2) but more to do with the demand. Collectors were paying over £600k for a GT2 RS which was madness, but only because they were convinced they would make money from them, not because they were going to enjoy driving them. That 'investment' rush filters down and secures the value of lesser GT cars, and then filters down further to bolster the value of the other 911 and Porsche cars, all due to that recent brand perception. A perception engineered by very clever marketing IMHO.

Ferrari are different, their 'brand' value has much greater depth as you say. They're like Rolex in the watch world, they make loads but are still seen as exclusive. Its a very clever trick, and again like Rolex, some of the products hold their value better than others but that isn't allowed to dilute the brand
Watches are an interesting comparison - I've always seen Ferrari as the Patek Philippe of the watch world, and Porsche the Rolex (many most of the former appreciate in value, a few of the latter do). Not sure where that leaves McLaren, guess they've gone from George Daniels in their F1 days to Audemars Piguet now!

bertie

7,934 posts

225 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
DeltaOne said:
Watches are an interesting comparison - I've always seen Ferrari as the Patek Philippe of the watch world, and Porsche the Rolex (many most of the former appreciate in value, a few of the latter do). Not sure where that leaves McLaren, guess they've gone from George Daniels in their F1 days to Audemars Piguet now!
Hublot