What,Can and Should Mclaren be Doing About Protecting Resale
Discussion
The Surveyor said:
I use the term 'investment' whenever anybody is drawn into paying 'overs' for a production car. It's less to do with supply (as you say, they have made double the number of 991 GT2 RS cars than they did the last GT2) but more to do with the demand. Collectors were paying over £600k for a GT2 RS which was madness, but only because they were convinced they would make money from them, not because they were going to enjoy driving them. That 'investment' rush filters down and secures the value of lesser GT cars, and then filters down further to bolster the value of the other 911 and Porsche cars, all due to that recent brand perception.
I don't agree everyone buying a GT car at overs is necessarily an investor. Some of it, especially on the early silly high levels is simply a must have thing for those people to get hold of the newest shiny thing. Later on when the prices stabilise to something more sensible, there's a reasonable number of people buying at those prices simply because they have to pay said overs to get hold of a car as they are not part of the 'in' club deemed worthy of getting the car new at list. Now some (or perhaps more accurately many) of those are then very fervent in their belief the cars might ever fall from where they bought at but the primary purpose isn't I think to make money from them. Especially now when it is clear Porsche are making far larger numbers of cars. That's for the more run of the mill cars like the gt3, rs or even 2rs obviously. It's going to be somewhat different for the limited stuff like a 991 R
IMI A said:
The Surveyor said:
DeltaOne said:
bertie said:
Hublot
Ouch. Didn't want to insult McLaren that much!
I was seeing McLaren as Omega, a properly decent world-class brand which are desirable, yet available.... and don't hold their value 
isaldiri said:
The Surveyor said:
I use the term 'investment' whenever anybody is drawn into paying 'overs' for a production car. It's less to do with supply (as you say, they have made double the number of 991 GT2 RS cars than they did the last GT2) but more to do with the demand. Collectors were paying over £600k for a GT2 RS which was madness, but only because they were convinced they would make money from them, not because they were going to enjoy driving them. That 'investment' rush filters down and secures the value of lesser GT cars, and then filters down further to bolster the value of the other 911 and Porsche cars, all due to that recent brand perception.
I don't agree everyone buying a GT car at overs is necessarily an investor. Some of it, especially on the early silly high levels is simply a must have thing for those people to get hold of the newest shiny thing. Later on when the prices stabilise to something more sensible, there's a reasonable number of people buying at those prices simply because they have to pay said overs to get hold of a car as they are not part of the 'in' club deemed worthy of getting the car new at list. Now some (or perhaps more accurately many) of those are then very fervent in their belief the cars might ever fall from where they bought at but the primary purpose isn't I think to make money from them. Especially now when it is clear Porsche are making far larger numbers of cars. That's for the more run of the mill cars like the gt3, rs or even 2rs obviously. It's going to be somewhat different for the limited stuff like a 991 R
991 R will probably indeed become a collector car, although I don’t really understand why it is trading above a 996 RS nowadays given 50 percent (or thereabouts) more cars and both were special at the time of launch (996 imo underpriced in the current market, probably also applies to the 996.1 GT3 as the first of the line - by Name anyway)
100k euro 991 RS is 24 months away imo - will make a great track car for some
In 10 years a 996 or 997 will be worth multiples of a 991 (GT3 and RS)
Don’t take this as “investment” advice as the overall value of all of them might be lower than today
I can see a 12C being worth quite a bit more than today though given relatively limited numbers / first car of a generation, timeless design etc (and at some point servicing costs/availability of independents will catch up imo)
isaldiri said:
The Surveyor said:
Now I know that the '991' is a reference to the last 911 model, and that the '.2' reference means its the second version of that 991, and that the 'batch 2' is the second issue of that second version..... and that the 'WP' is Weissach Pack option on the RS which is effectively a 'track pack' option ticked on the option list. But what is / are ITB's ?
Just the newest latest must have thing for a GT Porsche to make people with that feature able to be smug and sneer at prior cars without by being able to state it obsoletes the older engine.For all that Mclaren are accused of having always turning out new models that supercede old ones, not even they had the same model effectively upgraded halfway through a production run. they would be slaughtered for killing residuals on the earlier owners if they had done so.....
The Surveyor said:
nw942 said:
I'm sure they've still got plenty of ideas to increase power whilst meeting emissions.
But if something like mild-hybrid gives them the performance gains at a lower cost they will surely go down that path?
Porsche already make plenty of turbocharged 911's, not just the 'Turbo' and the GT2 but everything else in the range is forced-induction with the exception of the 'GT3' versions, and I'll put my hat on the 992 GT3 having a turbo too. They won't do a hybrid, but they will do an all-electric 911 in the very near future IMHO.But if something like mild-hybrid gives them the performance gains at a lower cost they will surely go down that path?
Regardless, the resale value of the 911 isn't linked to performance, adding performance doesn't matter to the investors, it's all about the mystique of their GT cars, and then letting that illusion filter down to their ordinary models. On paper, the GT3 RS are only marginally quicker than the cooking 992 Carrera 4s (0-60 of 3.2 against 3.4, and 193mph against 190mph), and all are trounced by the Turbo S (0-60 2.9 & 205mph), yet only the GT versions are seen as 'investments' with the other cars suffering almost normal depreciation. The Porsche marketing machine has convinced buyers that the 911 you really want isn't the fastest accelerating, isn't the one with the highest top speed, isn't the one with the best equipment, isn't the one with 4-seat practicality, isn't the one you can use everyday, its the GT3's, the special one, the unobtainable one.
It doesn't matter how much better the 600LT is than a GT3 RS, if everybody who wants a 600LT can get one, and can potentially get one at a discount there will never be flattening of that depreciation curve, simple supply & demand economics. McLaren need to engineer increased demand, they need to sharpen up their marketing and they need to get to a place where there are more buyers wanting their cars than there are cars. Its the same problem Aston Martin have, Bentley has, Rolls Royce has, Lotus has, BMW has... it's not an exclusively McLaren problem despite what the OP would suggest.
MDL111 said:
Cheapest 650S is at a touch under 140k euros and cheapest 991 RS is also at c 140k euros. So both quite a bit below list (RS probably 50k and the 650 I am not sure but assume 100k ish) - not great but the difference is no longer as substantial as it was in the past. I wonder if German McL Dealers are better than their UK equivalents in terms of buying back cars/ servicing etc
A fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would struggle to get to £150k NEW with all the toys,a friend of mine specked to about £153 but that included PTS.I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
MDL111 said:
Cheapest 650S is at a touch under 140k euros and cheapest 991 RS is also at c 140k euros. So both quite a bit below list (RS probably 50k and the 650 I am not sure but assume 100k ish) - not great but the difference is no longer as substantial as it was in the past. I wonder if German McL Dealers are better than their UK equivalents in terms of buying back cars/ servicing etc
A fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would struggle to get to £150k NEW with all the toys,a friend of mine specked to about £153 but that included PTS.I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
Cheapest RS I can see on here is £150k still over its oringinal list price, majority of them are £160k-£180k which is still 10k-30k over list for a 2015/2016 car!
What are you looking at Man and where are you getting your figures from
Edited by Juno on Friday 17th May 19:24
Juno said:
A fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would struggle to get to £150k NEW with all the toys,a friend of mine specked to about £153 but that included PTS.
I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
Cheapest RS I can see on here is £150k still over its oringinal list price, majority of them are £160k-£180k which is still 10k-30k over list for a 2015/2016 car!
What are you looking at Man and where are you getting your figures from
You need a trip to specsavers - read his post again properly. He's talking about euro cars and prices in euros. He is after all based there and they are talking a bit of a tonking (probably not more so than the rhd cars from their high though). I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
Cheapest RS I can see on here is £150k still over its oringinal list price, majority of them are £160k-£180k which is still 10k-30k over list for a 2015/2016 car!
What are you looking at Man and where are you getting your figures from
Juno said:
MDL111 said:
Cheapest 650S is at a touch under 140k euros and cheapest 991 RS is also at c 140k euros. So both quite a bit below list (RS probably 50k and the 650 I am not sure but assume 100k ish) - not great but the difference is no longer as substantial as it was in the past. I wonder if German McL Dealers are better than their UK equivalents in terms of buying back cars/ servicing etc
A fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would struggle to get to £150k NEW with all the toys,a friend of mine specked to about £153 but that included PTS.I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
Cheapest RS I can see on here is £150k still over its oringinal list price, majority of them are £160k-£180k which is still 10k-30k over list for a 2015/2016 car!
What are you looking at Man and where are you getting your figures from
Edited by Juno on Friday 17th May 19:24
MDL111 said:
100k euro 991 RS is 24 months away imo - will make a great track car for some
In 10 years a 996 or 997 will be worth multiples of a 991 (GT3 and RS)
Don’t take this as “investment” advice as the overall value of all of them might be lower than today
I can see a 12C being worth quite a bit more than today though given relatively limited numbers / first car of a generation, timeless design etc (and at some point servicing costs/availability of independents will catch up imo)
I don't think the 991rs will go below 100k euros tbh as they are just too capable cars to drop to there irrespective of how many cars were made. In 10 years a 996 or 997 will be worth multiples of a 991 (GT3 and RS)
Don’t take this as “investment” advice as the overall value of all of them might be lower than today
I can see a 12C being worth quite a bit more than today though given relatively limited numbers / first car of a generation, timeless design etc (and at some point servicing costs/availability of independents will catch up imo)
In the same way I don't think the 12c other than museum piece extremly low mileage ones will ever go up significantly tbh. At the end of the day they are very expensive cars in terms of parts/servicing etc to maintain. At their current prices it's just not entirely sensible to maintain them properly imo and the numbers of people doing so will inevitably decline to the point very few cars are going to be properly maintained and at that point, it's much more sensible to simply find and buy a newer more modern Mclaren that offers basically the same template but newer/better/faster etc.
And I do really hope the 996/997s don't go to multiples of a 991 though - i keep on saying this, appreciating cars are the killer in actually being to feel able to drive and use the cars. In an ideal world (very) slow depreciation would suit me just fine.
Just adding my bit as someone who deals with most 'supercar' brands on a daily basis.
McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
rich12 said:
Just adding my bit as someone who deals with most 'supercar' brands on a daily basis.
McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
That doesn’t read well McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
Juno said:
MDL111 said:
Cheapest 650S is at a touch under 140k euros and cheapest 991 RS is also at c 140k euros. So both quite a bit below list (RS probably 50k and the 650 I am not sure but assume 100k ish) - not great but the difference is no longer as substantial as it was in the past. I wonder if German McL Dealers are better than their UK equivalents in terms of buying back cars/ servicing etc
A fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would struggle to get to £150k NEW with all the toys,a friend of mine specked to about £153 but that included PTS.I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
Juno said:
rich12 said:
Just adding my bit as someone who deals with most 'supercar' brands on a daily basis.
McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
That doesn’t read well McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
isaldiri said:
MDL111 said:
100k euro 991 RS is 24 months away imo - will make a great track car for some
In 10 years a 996 or 997 will be worth multiples of a 991 (GT3 and RS)
Don’t take this as “investment” advice as the overall value of all of them might be lower than today
I can see a 12C being worth quite a bit more than today though given relatively limited numbers / first car of a generation, timeless design etc (and at some point servicing costs/availability of independents will catch up imo)
I don't think the 991rs will go below 100k euros tbh as they are just too capable cars to drop to there irrespective of how many cars were made. In 10 years a 996 or 997 will be worth multiples of a 991 (GT3 and RS)
Don’t take this as “investment” advice as the overall value of all of them might be lower than today
I can see a 12C being worth quite a bit more than today though given relatively limited numbers / first car of a generation, timeless design etc (and at some point servicing costs/availability of independents will catch up imo)
In the same way I don't think the 12c other than museum piece extremly low mileage ones will ever go up significantly tbh. At the end of the day they are very expensive cars in terms of parts/servicing etc to maintain. At their current prices it's just not entirely sensible to maintain them properly imo and the numbers of people doing so will inevitably decline to the point very few cars are going to be properly maintained and at that point, it's much more sensible to simply find and buy a newer more modern Mclaren that offers basically the same template but newer/better/faster etc.
And I do really hope the 996/997s don't go to multiples of a 991 though - i keep on saying this, appreciating cars are the killer in actually being to feel able to drive and use the cars. In an ideal world (very) slow depreciation would suit me just fine.
With regards to the 12C, I don’t know but people were spending loads of money to service a 355 when they were 30k, so at some point I would think people might do the same for a 12C - but maybe it is indeed not different enough to the cars that followed to warrant the expense to keep it on the road. I do like the design and think they might age better than the cars that followed
let’s hope the 996/997 cars don’t appreciate further, I would love a 996 RS and a 997.2 RS at some point
rich12 said:
Just adding my bit as someone who deals with most 'supercar' brands on a daily basis.
McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Is this not the fault of the dealer for sending it out in this state and for not being able to accommodate you again? Tell them you'll escalate to McLaren client services if they don't get it fixed quick.McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
rich12 said:
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
25K miles in a 570S is quite impressive motoring compared to many others of a similar age, plenty of time for something to work loose perhaps, and not necessarily a direct reflection of general build quality. Don't get me wrong, there have been plenty of cars that have come out of the factory that were poorly screwed together, but all of mine have been fine in that respect as have many of other owners I know. Improvements have been made in the factory to address quality which will help over time. I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
The extension to the warranty is really a dealer problem again, it sounds like they have selective memory which is not unheard of at any dealership! Two dealers I've used for Mc service were both Bentley as well, and other newer dealers also have Aston in their portfolio so its often the same team sitting across a few desks that deal with service for two brands.
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