What,Can and Should Mclaren be Doing About Protecting Resale
Discussion
They’re just making too many cars. The only way the market can absorb that many year after year flowing into the used market is if they reduce the cost of ownership so it’s an affordable proposition for a much wider customer base (e.g. traditional 911 buyers).
It would help to have a much cheaper limited warranty available that only covered the catastrophic costs, and then make it deliberately easy rather than difficult for indies to cover the other work, which they could do more cheaply.
It would help to have a much cheaper limited warranty available that only covered the catastrophic costs, and then make it deliberately easy rather than difficult for indies to cover the other work, which they could do more cheaply.
I think giving a standard 2 year warranty on any pre-owned car from a dealer for a starter would make a big difference (I suspect this is what really helps the Ferrari residuals for the older cars).
On depreciation, are the Mclarens that much worse than their competitors across the marques? only asking as just had a quick browse at 570s and its competitors say the Porsche 991 Turbo and Audi Gen 2 R8, and for 2014/2015 models which is when I think they came out, the 570s seems to start around £100k, whereas the 911 Turbo and R8 are now starting at £75-80k. I assume the McLaren was probably more expensive when new, but the depreciation on the surface seems in line with its rivals. (unless I am comparing the wrong cars here ofcourse!)
On depreciation, are the Mclarens that much worse than their competitors across the marques? only asking as just had a quick browse at 570s and its competitors say the Porsche 991 Turbo and Audi Gen 2 R8, and for 2014/2015 models which is when I think they came out, the 570s seems to start around £100k, whereas the 911 Turbo and R8 are now starting at £75-80k. I assume the McLaren was probably more expensive when new, but the depreciation on the surface seems in line with its rivals. (unless I am comparing the wrong cars here ofcourse!)
Here's cheapest good low miles 991 turbo s in UK.
http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
IMI A said:
Here's cheapest good low miles 991 turbo s in UK.
http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
Rather disingenuous post. You are quoting list price WITH NO OPTIONS for the turbo. So, using your method, a decently specced and relatively low milage 650s, 5 years old is £118k, which is 62% of its retail price. So, not too shabby, right?http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
cypriot said:
IMI A said:
Here's cheapest good low miles 991 turbo s in UK.
http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
Rather disingenuous post. You are quoting list price WITH NO OPTIONS for the turbo. So, using your method, a decently specced and relatively low milage 650s, 5 years old is £118k, which is 62% of its retail price. So, not too shabby, right?http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
cypriot said:
Rather disingenuous post. You are quoting list price WITH NO OPTIONS for the turbo. So, using your method, a decently specced and relatively low milage 650s, 5 years old is £118k, which is 62% of its retail price. So, not too shabby, right?
Not quite. The turbo s was very well specced as base and wouldn't have needed much in options. It even came with ceramics as standard. You're going to be adding a heap more options on any McLaren than the TTS.It's interesting that when depreciation of McLaren's is discussed, there are always some people that argue that it's the stability / rise in prices of the competition that has been abnormal, not the depreciation of McLaren's.
Whilst I agree that the bubble most high end cars have enjoyed recently is not normal - and is clearly coming to an end - why is it assumed that McLaren depreciation will now be in line with 'normal'? If one manufacturer is suffering heavy depreciation while it's competitors have strong residuals (and some of the reasons have been identified clearly in this thread) isn't it a bit optimistic to assume that they'll only continue to fall at the same rate as the competition?
They've suffered residuals in a buoyant market - I don't think that translates well into a market which seems to be slowing down quite significantly.
I also think the comments about 'if you can't afford the warranty, you can't afford the supercar' comments are interesting. That may well be true, but I guess the problem is there are plenty of people who could afford the initial capital outlay but not the running costs - and yet do feel they could afford the running costs of a £100k Ferrari.
But perhaps that's comparing apples with oranges? It's often said that the McLaren's are at least a generation ahead of the rivals. Maybe that's so, and it's simply the fact that this doesn't come for free - you pay for it in the running costs, and for various reasons in depreciation too.
For me, depreciation is probably the biggest thing stopping me from considering one. It just adds way too much to already high ownership costs. But I agree with the earlier posts - the fact that McLaren don't usually want their cars back is a big big negative.
Whilst I agree that the bubble most high end cars have enjoyed recently is not normal - and is clearly coming to an end - why is it assumed that McLaren depreciation will now be in line with 'normal'? If one manufacturer is suffering heavy depreciation while it's competitors have strong residuals (and some of the reasons have been identified clearly in this thread) isn't it a bit optimistic to assume that they'll only continue to fall at the same rate as the competition?
They've suffered residuals in a buoyant market - I don't think that translates well into a market which seems to be slowing down quite significantly.
I also think the comments about 'if you can't afford the warranty, you can't afford the supercar' comments are interesting. That may well be true, but I guess the problem is there are plenty of people who could afford the initial capital outlay but not the running costs - and yet do feel they could afford the running costs of a £100k Ferrari.
But perhaps that's comparing apples with oranges? It's often said that the McLaren's are at least a generation ahead of the rivals. Maybe that's so, and it's simply the fact that this doesn't come for free - you pay for it in the running costs, and for various reasons in depreciation too.
For me, depreciation is probably the biggest thing stopping me from considering one. It just adds way too much to already high ownership costs. But I agree with the earlier posts - the fact that McLaren don't usually want their cars back is a big big negative.
Resale value does not currently concern me - I'll no doubt address that when I come to sell (which will not be for at least 2 years) - what irks me is non owners (and some former owners who feel stung on resale) telling me I should be bothered 
thoughts of depreciation would only diminish the fabulous McL ownership experience...
All top end sportscar owners will be having reality checks over the coming years - the pool of potential buyers will continue to shrink and values will continue to plummet until they reach a sustainable price level (buyers and sellers numbers converging). - as more secondhand cars come to the market when/if that happens is anyone's guess?- in these volatile times..There are currently far too many sellers (all marques) out there compared to buyers.
thoughts of depreciation would only diminish the fabulous McL ownership experience...All top end sportscar owners will be having reality checks over the coming years - the pool of potential buyers will continue to shrink and values will continue to plummet until they reach a sustainable price level (buyers and sellers numbers converging). - as more secondhand cars come to the market when/if that happens is anyone's guess?- in these volatile times..There are currently far too many sellers (all marques) out there compared to buyers.
davek_964 said:
It's interesting that when depreciation of McLaren's is discussed, there are always some people that argue that it's the stability / rise in prices of the competition that has been abnormal, not the depreciation of McLaren's.
Whilst I agree that the bubble most high end cars have enjoyed recently is not normal - and is clearly coming to an end - why is it assumed that McLaren depreciation will now be in line with 'normal'? If one manufacturer is suffering heavy depreciation while it's competitors have strong residuals (and some of the reasons have been identified clearly in this thread) isn't it a bit optimistic to assume that they'll only continue to fall at the same rate as the competition?
They've suffered residuals in a buoyant market - I don't think that translates well into a market which seems to be slowing down quite significantly.
I also think the comments about 'if you can't afford the warranty, you can't afford the supercar' comments are interesting. That may well be true, but I guess the problem is there are plenty of people who could afford the initial capital outlay but not the running costs - and yet do feel they could afford the running costs of a £100k Ferrari.
But perhaps that's comparing apples with oranges? It's often said that the McLaren's are at least a generation ahead of the rivals. Maybe that's so, and it's simply the fact that this doesn't come for free - you pay for it in the running costs, and for various reasons in depreciation too.
For me, depreciation is probably the biggest thing stopping me from considering one. It just adds way too much to already high ownership costs. But I agree with the earlier posts - the fact that McLaren don't usually want their cars back is a big big negative.
I think you have a valid point. But I also think that a lot of the demand for certain cars is driven by the current expectation that they have good residuals/you can drive them for free etc, which to a degree might be “artificial” demand - Take Porsche GT cars as an example, in the past they depreciated like every other high end car and there was little demand for them - now suddenly, even with much higher production numbers (thousands and thousands of 991 RS cars ....) there are buyers paying a premium. I personally think demand (and therefore value retention) for these cars will suffer much more than McLaren as the people buying a McLaren already expect it to lose a packet and really want one, while I suspect a good number of GT buyers wouldn’t buy them if they were to lose 40-50% over 3-4 years.Whilst I agree that the bubble most high end cars have enjoyed recently is not normal - and is clearly coming to an end - why is it assumed that McLaren depreciation will now be in line with 'normal'? If one manufacturer is suffering heavy depreciation while it's competitors have strong residuals (and some of the reasons have been identified clearly in this thread) isn't it a bit optimistic to assume that they'll only continue to fall at the same rate as the competition?
They've suffered residuals in a buoyant market - I don't think that translates well into a market which seems to be slowing down quite significantly.
I also think the comments about 'if you can't afford the warranty, you can't afford the supercar' comments are interesting. That may well be true, but I guess the problem is there are plenty of people who could afford the initial capital outlay but not the running costs - and yet do feel they could afford the running costs of a £100k Ferrari.
But perhaps that's comparing apples with oranges? It's often said that the McLaren's are at least a generation ahead of the rivals. Maybe that's so, and it's simply the fact that this doesn't come for free - you pay for it in the running costs, and for various reasons in depreciation too.
For me, depreciation is probably the biggest thing stopping me from considering one. It just adds way too much to already high ownership costs. But I agree with the earlier posts - the fact that McLaren don't usually want their cars back is a big big negative.
Ferrari imo is slightly different as they have built a customer base over decades, but even those will start to depreciate much more imo given how much F is ramping up production/model numbers and cycles etc due to being listed now. Also the Challenge Stradale (a rather limited production number car) depreciated quite significantly, Scuderia the same and Speciales were also below list at some point (in Germany anyway)
Btw not buying back cars is clearly an issue, they should at least make an offer at a heavy discount to retail.
With regards to the warranty, I have said before that I think it is decent value for money. I pay nearly the same to warranty the Ferrari (which covers less imo) and more than that in annual insurance, so it is not that big of a cost item in the overall scheme of things imo - obviously not as cheap as Porsche, but the car costs double ....
Three things put me off buying (another) one...
Depreciation
Reliability
Liquidity - ie even if you want to take a hit, then you might not find a buyer. This might be the most important point for me personally, and maybe they should refocus front-end incentives and discounts into supporting the used market.
Hard to think of another brand that combines all three, in a negative way.
Very annoying, especially the reliability, as they are good cars, but the underpinnings have been the same since launch, and should be fixed by now.
Warranty not a factor for me.
Depreciation
Reliability
Liquidity - ie even if you want to take a hit, then you might not find a buyer. This might be the most important point for me personally, and maybe they should refocus front-end incentives and discounts into supporting the used market.
Hard to think of another brand that combines all three, in a negative way.
Very annoying, especially the reliability, as they are good cars, but the underpinnings have been the same since launch, and should be fixed by now.
Warranty not a factor for me.
MDL111 said:
The sooner we get back to normality where the majority of sports cars loses about 50 percent of 3-5 years the better imo - then all these discussions as well as the “investment threads” and b.... fights over Porsche GT allocations will be over.
^ this. And I think we are on our way there now. I've ridden the sportscar market up and down for 15 years or so now and I prefer the cheaper phase of that market as it is more predictable, avoids having so much cash tied-up and means I can access the cars I want. Needing to be a "good customer" of the dealer to get a relatively mainstream car has caused me to lose a lot of love for the whole experience. cypriot said:
IMI A said:
Here's cheapest good low miles 991 turbo s in UK.
http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
Rather disingenuous post. You are quoting list price WITH NO OPTIONS for the turbo. So, using your method, a decently specced and relatively low milage 650s, 5 years old is £118k, which is 62% of its retail price. So, not too shabby, right?http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
Im a Lotus guy looking at coming over and I see many of the same flaws in McLaren as Lotus. Over production- dealers buying up batches of cars from the factory. It's tempting and concerning in equal measure when you can walk into a dealership and get 30k off list. The model superceding thing has stopped at Lotus for now but was hugely damaging for them while it was going on.
From a noob perspective at the moment I think used is the sensible way to go. The warranty is seriously expensive although I was told a Mcused gets one year so with some man maths thrown in you could make yourself think that over two years it was £1500 per year.
The 570 is more of a Porsche competitor than an F or L car so as a punter you do kind of go in with the expectation that 2 years would be offered just because that's what your competitors are doing. Pre and post track inspections add another significant cost where Porsche don't care what you do with it.
Depreciation on new is concerning for anyone paying close to list. Don't forget that if for example if you pay 158k for a 570 new after 2 years it might be marketed at 115k but that nets back to you at just over 100 with sale costs. Of course this is mitigated by taking up one of the many offers out there on pre reg cars.
Ultimately McLarens priority is always going to be pumping more cars out of the factory. In a way the depreciation is a good thing as if nothing else it tempts poorpers like me into a type of car I didn't see as all that attainable. Over time there should hopefully be more potential customers to buy the used cars. McLaren are a young company in a crowded market so it should hardly be a shock that the used prices are low. I have to say though if you look at a 570 at 100k it makes almost all other choices at that price point look stupid. That's got to be a good thing.
From a noob perspective at the moment I think used is the sensible way to go. The warranty is seriously expensive although I was told a Mcused gets one year so with some man maths thrown in you could make yourself think that over two years it was £1500 per year.
The 570 is more of a Porsche competitor than an F or L car so as a punter you do kind of go in with the expectation that 2 years would be offered just because that's what your competitors are doing. Pre and post track inspections add another significant cost where Porsche don't care what you do with it.
Depreciation on new is concerning for anyone paying close to list. Don't forget that if for example if you pay 158k for a 570 new after 2 years it might be marketed at 115k but that nets back to you at just over 100 with sale costs. Of course this is mitigated by taking up one of the many offers out there on pre reg cars.
Ultimately McLarens priority is always going to be pumping more cars out of the factory. In a way the depreciation is a good thing as if nothing else it tempts poorpers like me into a type of car I didn't see as all that attainable. Over time there should hopefully be more potential customers to buy the used cars. McLaren are a young company in a crowded market so it should hardly be a shock that the used prices are low. I have to say though if you look at a 570 at 100k it makes almost all other choices at that price point look stupid. That's got to be a good thing.
IMI A said:
Here's cheapest good low miles 991 turbo s in UK.
http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
Just to say, that would be a heavily spec'd 720S to get to 280k new... most orders were spec'd to around about 250-260k.. am I right? and i'd be surprised if there are any brand new ones for 180k.. probably 200k-210k yes.http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
fridaypassion said:
The model superceding thing has stopped at Lotus for now but was hugely damaging for them while it was going on.
In a way the depreciation is a good thing as if nothing else it tempts poorpers like me into a type of car I didn't see as all that attainable. Over time there should hopefully be more potential customers to buy the used cars. McLaren are a young company in a crowded market so it should hardly be a shock that the used prices are low. I have to say though if you look at a 570 at 100k it makes almost all other choices at that price point look stupid. That's got to be a good thing.
Has the model superceding thing stopped at Lotus? The evora 400 became the 410 then the 430 very quickly. Same with the exige and/or exige cup.In a way the depreciation is a good thing as if nothing else it tempts poorpers like me into a type of car I didn't see as all that attainable. Over time there should hopefully be more potential customers to buy the used cars. McLaren are a young company in a crowded market so it should hardly be a shock that the used prices are low. I have to say though if you look at a 570 at 100k it makes almost all other choices at that price point look stupid. That's got to be a good thing.
The problem with £100k 570s is that people tend to associate running costs of the car with the purchase price and end up having very unrealistic expectations of how kuch a Mclaren should cost to run given the price they are buying the car at. To be fair I have some sympathy for that view, when the warranty for 5+ year old cars was raised to £5k (plus a very difficult last 10 months) it was the last straw for me wrt to deciding to keep my old 12c no matter how much I had liked it as £5k plus whatever servicing etc to run an £80k car (that one could expect to fall further) was just not worth it to me any longer.
mcl570 said:
IMI A said:
Here's cheapest good low miles 991 turbo s in UK.
http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
Just to say, that would be a heavily spec'd 720S to get to 280k new... most orders were spec'd to around about 250-260k.. am I right? and i'd be surprised if there are any brand new ones for 180k.. probably 200k-210k yes.http://www.nineexcellence.com/porsche-sales/sales-...
To save you doing the maths its held circa 67% of its original retail price 5-6 years on which is incredible. Mcl have some way to go to have their ordinary non LT vehicles doing that well. I'm hearing you can buy a virtually brand new 720s for £180k albeit not to your own spec. Thats not far off £100k off list on day 1!
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