Tesla S - or - Why can't everybody else...?
Discussion
bigmadjohn said:
Saw a documentary about the model S the other night on National Geographic
They build the S entirely in house in a closed down GM factory in California. The entire production line for the S uses less than 20% of the facility. They hired a guy who used to set up Toyota's North American factories to set theirs up. Seemed very state of the art when compared with other documentaries on car building, lots of new robots, massive die presses for the aluminium panels etc.
They also hinted that the next big thing from Tesla would be a small city type car, costing the equivalent of other petrol small cars, they were hinting that that would be the use for the unused 80% of the factory.
Very good documentary, keep an eye out for it.
Is this it?They build the S entirely in house in a closed down GM factory in California. The entire production line for the S uses less than 20% of the facility. They hired a guy who used to set up Toyota's North American factories to set theirs up. Seemed very state of the art when compared with other documentaries on car building, lots of new robots, massive die presses for the aluminium panels etc.
They also hinted that the next big thing from Tesla would be a small city type car, costing the equivalent of other petrol small cars, they were hinting that that would be the use for the unused 80% of the factory.
Very good documentary, keep an eye out for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgDcA1pZAM
Cheers for that, I was looking for something to watch tonight.
kambites said:
Is a 2003 530d really worth much more than a petrol?
Yes, it is - and I say that as the owner of a 2002 530i. For reasons which I think are flawed and shortsighted, demand for complex diesel powered executive timebombs is noticeable stronger than demand for more simple petrol powered equivilents. E39 wise for a 530d to be under £3k it needs to be very very old or particularly tatty. Whereas for a 530i to be worth over £3k it needs to be an exceptional example.Petrol 5 Series are about as desireable as a not very desireable thing on an undesireable day.
TooMany2cvs said:
By which, of course, you mean "petrol or diesel". Well, them's the only choices. So by not comparing it to one, you're not comparing it to anything.
I don't understand your point. - I'm comparing the Model S to what potential punters are buying now (e.g. a BMW 640d, XF 3.0D S etc.). - Big petrols (non-performance models, so excluding BMW M cars or Merc AMGs) are as rare as hen's teeth now. My point is that if the customer gets the impression that the Model S will be "knackered" after "x" miles, it'll affect the resale values.TooMany2cvs said:
No, they depreciate because people won't pay the same for an old car as a new one.
Stop being obtuse. - I meant that generally petrols depreciate more than the equivalent diesel model. That has certainly been the case with every car I've owned.kambites said:
But still, you're looking at maybe 10% of original value after 10 years. That's not very much.
TooMany2cvs said:
Small detail - a high-spec 10yo diesel 5-series is still only worth a small proportion of that pre-payment towards the new battery.
Exactly. So imagine the Model S depreciates at the same rate as a 10-year-old diesel 5'er; who in their right mind would buy a new battery pack for multiples of what the rest of the car's worth? That'd be like buying a 530i with a knackered engine for £500, then spending more than the market value on fitting a new motor.TooMany2cvs said:
Anyway, they aren't.
Of 236 petrol 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k (excluding the armoured one...). Only six are between £4k and £5k.
Of 97 diesel 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k. Only seven are between £4k and £5k.
Too simplistic. - If you compare equivalent spec / miles, the diesels are generally worth more than the petrols. - As I have said, when I bought my 3'er (at 8 years old) the diesel version was worth nearly twice the price with the same spec / mileage.Of 236 petrol 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k (excluding the armoured one...). Only six are between £4k and £5k.
Of 97 diesel 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k. Only seven are between £4k and £5k.
TooMany2cvs said:
But, whilst this is all interesting, it gets away from the original question...
How come Tesla can develop a complete, seemingly ground-breaking and excellent car for a fraction of what the mainstream spend to develop a ho-hum same-old-same-old platform alone?
Indeed. - They do seem to have stolen a massive march on the established players. - I would love to test drive one; it looks brilliant.How come Tesla can develop a complete, seemingly ground-breaking and excellent car for a fraction of what the mainstream spend to develop a ho-hum same-old-same-old platform alone?
Yes I'd tend to agree. I doubt anyone is going to bother to buy a $35k or even a $10k battery pack for a 10 year old Tesla - it's just not worth the effort. I don't particularly see that as a problem, though. It just means you have to account an extra 500 quid a year or whatever into the depreciation figure.
Of course it's hard to say what a 10 year old Model-S with a new battery will be worth. In a way it'd be a far more desirable proposition than a 10 year-old internal combustion powered car because there's so few moving parts to go wrong.
Of course it's hard to say what a 10 year old Model-S with a new battery will be worth. In a way it'd be a far more desirable proposition than a 10 year-old internal combustion powered car because there's so few moving parts to go wrong.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 15th December 23:04
kambites said:
Yes I'd tend to agree. I doubt anyone is going to bother to buy a $35k or even a $10k battery pack for a 10 year old Tesla - it's just not worth the effort. I don't particularly see that as a problem, though. It just means you have to account an extra 500 quid a year or whatever into the depreciation figure.
At least you'll probably save more than that in fuel costs / rfl compared to a similarly-powerful rival. I think this car will be a game changer when it arrives here next year…even more so if/when they later release even higher capacity batteries.I think the main thing for me with the Tesla S pricing is that we don't know if it is actually sustainable or not. i.e How are they writing down their development and manufacturing facility costs on this one car? I suspect, they aren't, and that they will need a higher volume product to actually make money in the long run. As a pure EV, the car will have been a lot less expensive to develop compare to a conventional ICEV, but it is still a might costly buisness making a genuine BMW/Merc competitor product!
My general feeling is that the S would be something like 20% more expensive if a fully sustainable business case was being used?
My general feeling is that the S would be something like 20% more expensive if a fully sustainable business case was being used?
Max_Torque said:
I think the main thing for me with the Tesla S pricing is that we don't know if it is actually sustainable or not. i.e How are they writing down their development and manufacturing facility costs on this one car? I suspect, they aren't, and that they will need a higher volume product to actually make money in the long run. As a pure EV, the car will have been a lot less expensive to develop compare to a conventional ICEV, but it is still a might costly buisness making a genuine BMW/Merc competitor product!
My general feeling is that the S would be something like 20% more expensive if a fully sustainable business case was being used?
If that is the case, hopefully they succeed in selling loads of them to make economies of scale etc. work for them.My general feeling is that the S would be something like 20% more expensive if a fully sustainable business case was being used?
RenOHH said:
Is this it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgDcA1pZAM
Cheers for that, I was looking for something to watch tonight.
I'm watching now. Goddamn I want a Tesla S badly now.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgDcA1pZAM
Cheers for that, I was looking for something to watch tonight.
The Model S is a deeply impressive car. I've done a few hundred miles in one and the relatively small development costs are even more impressive when you drive it and realise what a complete, game changing car it is.
Everything about it feels 'next level'. Also, to the OP asking how Tesla managed it, two words - Elon. Musk.
Everything about it feels 'next level'. Also, to the OP asking how Tesla managed it, two words - Elon. Musk.
TooMany2cvs said:
WTF? How? Where have Tesla found such a cache of seriously top-notch chassis and suspension and NVH and whateverelse engineers? What've they been doing up until now?
The competence of engineers doesn't change much from company to company. Whether or not the management listens to them really, really does.Kawasicki said:
TooMany2cvs said:
WTF? How? Where have Tesla found such a cache of seriously top-notch chassis and suspension and NVH and whateverelse engineers? What've they been doing up until now?
The competence of engineers doesn't change much from company to company. Whether or not the management listens to them really, really does.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff