Tesla S - or - Why can't everybody else...?

[TooMany2cvs]

Kawasicki said:

The competence of engineers doesn't change much from company to company. Whether or not the management listens to them really, really does.

So every other senior management within the entire motor industry is so massively incompetent as to close-on triple the cost of a development project?

[swisstoni]

Apart from the stunning tech, what amazes me is that the styling of the thing is so good.
Most newcomers can't get this right and even the Famous Names get it very wrong a lot of the time.

[Kawasicki]

TooMany2cvs said:

Kawasicki said:

The competence of engineers doesn't change much from company to company. Whether or not the management listens to them really, really does.

So every other senior management within the entire motor industry is so massively incompetent as to close-on triple the cost of a development project?

It's not individual incompentence as such...it's systematic/political/structural. I would say that costs are easily doubled. Easily.

Engineer says "A will NEVER work, B will"
Management say "Well A is all we can afford, so make it work"
A doesn't work. Then the A redesign starts, it still doesn't work. It goes on and on and on, like some crazy comedy. Get the experts in, they say "do B". So that's it decided then. B. How much money/time wasted?

[TooMany2cvs]

swisstoni said:

Apart from the stunning tech, what amazes me is that the styling of the thing is so good.
Most newcomers can't get this right and even the Famous Names get it very wrong a lot of the time.

It's a bit cut'n'paste. Jag XF arse, Maserati nose, all finished with a Vauxhall grille with an Audi bar through it?

[Kawasicki]

Beefmeister said:

That's possibly the best thing I've read on PH this year. Have a big, manly internet high five.

Why, thanks!...awkward high five back at you....woo hoo!

[Beefmeister]

Kawasicki said:

Beefmeister said:

That's possibly the best thing I've read on PH this year. Have a big, manly internet high five.

Why, thanks!...awkward high five back at you....woo hoo!

No problem. I've worked for 12 different OEMs in my career as a design engineer and that statement rings very, very true.

Except Italy. The engineers in the Fiat Group building in Turin are 85% lazy talentlesss f**kwits trading off a family name or similar, then there are 15% absolute goddam geniuses. Maestros with a mouse and a CAD package.

[Kawasicki]

Beefmeister said:

No problem. I've worked for 12 different OEMs in my career as a design engineer and that statement rings very, very true.

Except Italy. The engineers in the Fiat Group building in Turin are 85% lazy talentlesss f**kwits trading off a family name or similar, then there are 15% absolute goddam geniuses. Maestros with a mouse and a CAD package.

One of mu colleagues is ex Fiat Group, he left, he was(is) one of the 15%. Yes, he is a genius. Makes life fun.

[TransverseTight]

TooMany2cvs said:

Clivey said:

I wouldn't compare it to a petrol

By which, of course, you mean "petrol or diesel". Well, them's the only choices. So by not comparing it to one, you're not comparing it to anything.

Clivey said:

they depreciate because of UK fuel costs, tax etc. etc

No, they depreciate because people won't pay the same for an old car as a new one. The UK isn't really comparable to other countries because we sit on the wrong side of the car to make used cars internationally portable, which is what props used values up in other European countries.

Clivey said:

and the people looking at this in the UK will typically be comparing it to rivals like the top-of-the-range diesel Germans. - The residuals of those are much higher than the petrol equivalents.

Small detail - a high-spec 10yo diesel 5-series is still only worth a small proportion of that pre-payment towards the new battery.

Anyway, they aren't.
Of 236 petrol 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k (excluding the armoured one...). Only six are between £4k and £5k.
Of 97 diesel 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k. Only seven are between £4k and £5k.

But, whilst this is all interesting, it gets away from the original question...

How come Tesla can develop a complete, seemingly ground-breaking and excellent car for a fraction of what the mainstream spend to develop a ho-hum same-old-same-old platform alone?

Edited by TooMany2cvs on Sunday 15th December 18:26

The other point is you have to compare it to a petrol if you want like for like power and performance. The 740d had only 300 bhp and 0-60 of 6.2 whilst the base Tesla has over 340 and 0-60 of 5.2.

[pthelazyjourno]

Interesting (if lightweight) overview of some of Tesla's income. $400m government loan, selling off tax credits for making 'green' cars to other OEMs, lots of different revenue streams outside of the cars they make.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2013/05/11...

[swisstoni]

TooMany2cvs said:

swisstoni said:

Apart from the stunning tech, what amazes me is that the styling of the thing is so good.
Most newcomers can't get this right and even the Famous Names get it very wrong a lot of the time.

It's a bit cut'n'paste. Jag XF arse, Maserati nose, all finished with a Vauxhall grille with an Audi bar through it?

Sounds easy doesn't it.

[SrMoreno]

pthelazyjourno said:

Interesting (if lightweight) overview of some of Tesla's income. $400m government loan, selling off tax credits for making 'green' cars to other OEMs, lots of different revenue streams outside of the cars they make.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2013/05/11...

The tax credits aspect is interesting and just shows how short-sighted the major car manufacturers have been.

[Clivey]

TransverseTight said:

The other point is you have to compare it to a petrol if you want like for like power and performance. The 740d had only 300 bhp and 0-60 of 6.2 whilst the base Tesla has over 340 and 0-60 of 5.2.

The new 5/6 Series 40d, A6 3.0 Bi-TDi and XF 3.0D S all do 0-60 in the 5 point something range.

[anonymous-user]

Clivey said:

TransverseTight said:

The other point is you have to compare it to a petrol if you want like for like power and performance. The 740d had only 300 bhp and 0-60 of 6.2 whilst the base Tesla has over 340 and 0-60 of 5.2.

The new 5/6 Series 40d, A6 3.0 Bi-TDi and XF 3.0D S all do 0-60 in the 5 point something range.

Isn't the 550xd in the 4s??

[TransverseTight]

Max_Torque said:

I think the main thing for me with the Tesla S pricing is that we don't know if it is actually sustainable or not. i.e How are they writing down their development and manufacturing facility costs on this one car? I suspect, they aren't, and that they will need a higher volume product to actually make money in the long run. As a pure EV, the car will have been a lot less expensive to develop compare to a conventional ICEV, but it is still a might costly buisness making a genuine BMW/Merc competitor product!

My general feeling is that the S would be something like 20% more expensive if a fully sustainable business case was being used?

I checked upon this before thinking the same. But realised as they started shipping in volume they can't be giving them away at less than cost. According to this article their margin is 22%.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-07/tesla-...

I'd love a model S but am hanging on for the 3 series rival. In the mean time I'm quite fancying an XF S d as they're nearly less than chips. Although according to some anti Ev phers I might be able to pick up a used tesla next year for about £20k if their depreciation curves are correct

[AnotherClarkey]

TransverseTight said:

I checked upon this before thinking the same. But realised as they started shipping in volume they can't be giving them away at less than cost. According to this article their margin is 22%.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-07/tesla-...

I'd love a model S but am hanging on for the 3 series rival. In the mean time I'm quite fancying an XF S d as they're nearly less than chips. Although according to some anti Ev phers I might be able to pick up a used tesla next year for about £20k if their depreciation curves are correct

Same for me. I like the S but it is bigger than I need and I would like to see what they come up with in the next generation. The other thing that will be interesting is how quickly they get their supercharger network up here. Apparently the first one goes in soon and they want a basic countrywide network by the end of 2014. If they do the appeal of 'free fuel, forever' may be very appealing to people (supposing the company survives, of course).

[Clivey]

Max_Torque said:

Isn't the 550xd in the 4s??

I think so...but we don't get it in the UK - something to do with the RHD conversion IIRC. Basically though, big, fast diesels are available (and selling). I see them as the biggest & closest competitors for the Model S but once it's released over here, I'm sure it will make a massive impact. I mean…you're getting equal or better performance in a car that costs under a fiver to fill up? Who's going to argue with that?






I fear the answer is: Polititians looking to raise taxes.

[TooMany2cvs]

Clivey said:

...a car that costs under a fiver to fill up? Who's going to argue with that?

Who do you buy your electricity off?

90kWh battery, at ~15p/kwh = £13.50. Sure, it's a lot less than diesel or petrol, but it ain't "less than a fiver".

It's also worth remembering that from a domestic 13A 230v socket, it's going to take 30hrs to fully charge.

[Clivey]

TooMany2cvs said:

Who do you buy your electricity off?

90kWh battery, at ~15p/kwh = £13.50. Sure, it's a lot less than diesel or petrol, but it ain't "less than a fiver".

It's also worth remembering that from a domestic 13A 230v socket, it's going to take 30hrs to fully charge.

Lol; I've been speaking to an American that owns one*…but still, even with UK 'leccy prices, that's cheap.

* As an aside, he says it's excellent in winter weather; the TCS is much better than anything that can be fitted with an IC engine as it works in conjunction with the electric motors powering the wheels and therefore the response time is much faster.

[thatdude]

What is the distance one could realistically travel on a full chage (given use of radio, lights, air-con / heater, heated seats etc etc etc etc)?

I would love one of these as a daily commuter (although I cant afford one yet, but in the future? who knows...money to be saved in servicing, filling up and road tax)

[AnotherClarkey]

This is a pretty good video showing what range you might expect in cold conditions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5PqPeOPT0

Also very good at demonstrating just how much room there is in the thing...