Cheap LPG Conversions
Discussion
Hello
So, my work has gone rather bananas over the past few months - and I've taken on an extra contract which now means I'm doing 160 miles, 5 days a week. On top of that, there's another 80 miles on a Sunday but that tends to be enjoyed in one of my other POS.
I was considering getting myself into a diesel now I've got extra money coming in. However
A) I'm rather fond of the current daily.
2) We're saving up at the moment for some big house alterations
D) The unknowns of getting another car are off putting.
5) Why spend pounds to save pennies?
Has anyone experience of these LPG conversion companies that promise to do it in a day for like £650? I'm not concerned about the nationality of the installers (LPG being much more popular in eastern europe) or the quality of the coffee in their waiting room. What does bother me is the quality of the workmanship and the after care.
Any experiences?
So, my work has gone rather bananas over the past few months - and I've taken on an extra contract which now means I'm doing 160 miles, 5 days a week. On top of that, there's another 80 miles on a Sunday but that tends to be enjoyed in one of my other POS.
I was considering getting myself into a diesel now I've got extra money coming in. However
A) I'm rather fond of the current daily.
2) We're saving up at the moment for some big house alterations
D) The unknowns of getting another car are off putting.
5) Why spend pounds to save pennies?
Has anyone experience of these LPG conversion companies that promise to do it in a day for like £650? I'm not concerned about the nationality of the installers (LPG being much more popular in eastern europe) or the quality of the coffee in their waiting room. What does bother me is the quality of the workmanship and the after care.
Any experiences?
Used Leeds LPG on my LS400 about 4 years ago. All done in a day. Worked flawlessly for next 70k miles, sure it's still working now... Only thing was they didn't paint rust inhibitor on the filler hole, which eventually started bubbling. I'd use them again though.
Edited by tombar on Sunday 12th February 13:54
tombar said:
Oh hi Bornite, how are you? Remember the Avensis estate from the Bargain Basement thread last summer? Still going strong 12k miles later. Just passed its MOT. They are tough, if dull cars!
Hey Man. Yep - all is well. My saloon is about to tick over 200k in the next few weeks!Toyota engined LPG forklift at work, not a conversion, but a factory built machine. Pain in the arse, great when it's going, but has been far less reliable than any engine I have ever used. Only bought for local emissions in an enclosed building and the fuel cost/hr is twice that of red diesel.
I'd rather pay the tax on road fuel than run LPG after 15 years and nearly 9000 engine hours running this machine.
I'd rather pay the tax on road fuel than run LPG after 15 years and nearly 9000 engine hours running this machine.
I am biased as I used to convert cars to LPG and I've had my fair share of LPG cars over the years and driven others including from barges on mixer systems to Mundaneos, Lagunas and Focis on fancy sequential systems. They have progressed even more lately but that's not for this thread.
In short here is what I have found and seen from the cheaper conversions:
Pros
-Cheap and quick to install
-Less moving stuff so less potential for fault finding
Cons
-Some of the cheaper systems use cheap multivalve kits that take small lines. LPG takes an age to fill up anyway.
I am talking about the difference between a 65L tank taking 3-4 minutes to fill up and a cheapo one taking well over 10-5 minutes for a similar volume.
-Coolant connections ; this affects most LPG conversions irrespective of type but TBH but it's the one thing I have seen overlooked on many LPG conversions and on a couple of cars I have owned they have resulted in a boiled engine ; the connectors fail. I get around this with a bodge to many (I install the vaporiser in line with the heater system with silicon hoses, not the cheap s
t that tends to fail over time and do away completely with the plastic tap in connectors) but I have not had a cooling issue since with my method. It does take time to suss that out mind you regarding vapouriser placement etc. which you can get away with the 'tap in' plastic T-piece connectors.
That said, the first Mondeo we converted was fine but it did use a little coolant now and again over time (I'm talking 1/2 a litre over a year) which was later traced to these connections.
-Backfiring ; despite people claiming they don't get it on mixer systems on EFI cars (and then mysteriously selling the cars on later shortly) most of them backfire. It's due to a lack of gas being present. The other way is to make the mixer system run very rich, but then you have a car that smells of LPG outside of the car at idle and poor MPG, albeit still better than petrol. Remember that even on a sequential system you need more LPG due to a lower calorific value than petrol, so a mixer system will exaggerate this.
For this reasons almost all mixer systems have a backfire valve built in so as to prevent the inlet manifold and airbox from exploding from a backfire.
-Performance. Due to the mixer systems narrowing the air intake so that the gas can be drawn in on a venturi effect performance suffers quite a bit.
Put it this way. My XJ40 XJR went from being able to keep up with a Subaru WRX (just) to barely pulling away from a Focus 1.6 with the mixer and without. Mind you, that probably is an exaggerated example ; the engines in those were hotted up at Bloxham/Brown's Lane for the XJRs.
In short, it will work but backfiring and poorer MPG may be an issue.
In short here is what I have found and seen from the cheaper conversions:
Pros
-Cheap and quick to install
-Less moving stuff so less potential for fault finding
Cons
-Some of the cheaper systems use cheap multivalve kits that take small lines. LPG takes an age to fill up anyway.
I am talking about the difference between a 65L tank taking 3-4 minutes to fill up and a cheapo one taking well over 10-5 minutes for a similar volume.
-Coolant connections ; this affects most LPG conversions irrespective of type but TBH but it's the one thing I have seen overlooked on many LPG conversions and on a couple of cars I have owned they have resulted in a boiled engine ; the connectors fail. I get around this with a bodge to many (I install the vaporiser in line with the heater system with silicon hoses, not the cheap s
t that tends to fail over time and do away completely with the plastic tap in connectors) but I have not had a cooling issue since with my method. It does take time to suss that out mind you regarding vapouriser placement etc. which you can get away with the 'tap in' plastic T-piece connectors.That said, the first Mondeo we converted was fine but it did use a little coolant now and again over time (I'm talking 1/2 a litre over a year) which was later traced to these connections.
-Backfiring ; despite people claiming they don't get it on mixer systems on EFI cars (and then mysteriously selling the cars on later shortly) most of them backfire. It's due to a lack of gas being present. The other way is to make the mixer system run very rich, but then you have a car that smells of LPG outside of the car at idle and poor MPG, albeit still better than petrol. Remember that even on a sequential system you need more LPG due to a lower calorific value than petrol, so a mixer system will exaggerate this.
For this reasons almost all mixer systems have a backfire valve built in so as to prevent the inlet manifold and airbox from exploding from a backfire.
-Performance. Due to the mixer systems narrowing the air intake so that the gas can be drawn in on a venturi effect performance suffers quite a bit.
Put it this way. My XJ40 XJR went from being able to keep up with a Subaru WRX (just) to barely pulling away from a Focus 1.6 with the mixer and without. Mind you, that probably is an exaggerated example ; the engines in those were hotted up at Bloxham/Brown's Lane for the XJRs.
In short, it will work but backfiring and poorer MPG may be an issue.
You are actually much better using those ''cheaper - do it in a day places'' Operated by Polish people who have worked with those systems for God knows how long and truly know their stuff than some rip-off places run by UK Nationals where they don't have much clients and don't give a f about the work quality but will gladly Overcharge you through the roof. Just make sure the place is reputable and spec the system to your liking.
Or... Just fit it yourself, I have converted 2 cars myself, costs about £350 for a decent spec components for 4cylinder car, or about £250 if using the cheapest stuff there is.
Just expect to be tinkering A LOT with your first conversion to get it running in tip-top shape.
LPG over Diesel ANY day of the week...
Or... Just fit it yourself, I have converted 2 cars myself, costs about £350 for a decent spec components for 4cylinder car, or about £250 if using the cheapest stuff there is.
Just expect to be tinkering A LOT with your first conversion to get it running in tip-top shape.
LPG over Diesel ANY day of the week...
Edited by bagusbagus on Sunday 12th February 22:12
@Sebringman
I have just started a post about LPG in the alternative fuels section. I have a v12 6.0 Jag and ive had a quote from a company in south wales for a STAG system at 1800 plus vat and then a quote from somewhere in Leeds that says you need a twin ECU setup rather than the single offered by the STAG and are offering a twin KME Nevo ECU setup with Romano HD reducer and Hana injectors for the same money. The place in Leeds has gone into much more technical detail. Have you heard of or used either system?
I have just started a post about LPG in the alternative fuels section. I have a v12 6.0 Jag and ive had a quote from a company in south wales for a STAG system at 1800 plus vat and then a quote from somewhere in Leeds that says you need a twin ECU setup rather than the single offered by the STAG and are offering a twin KME Nevo ECU setup with Romano HD reducer and Hana injectors for the same money. The place in Leeds has gone into much more technical detail. Have you heard of or used either system?
i used the south wales people - but i profess to being no specialist.
one primera 1.8. EML on because of some swirl pot sensor issues (lpg doesnt swirl) ran fine for 50k miles.
Yars 1.5 t-sport. same deal. ran fine for 35k miles, but it did start to develop some cold running issues/stutters. googleing suggested the valves in that engine werent up to LPG (soft valves). however i sold it wiothout actually investigating the problems. could have been a fuel filter for all i know as I didn't service it once!
one primera 1.8. EML on because of some swirl pot sensor issues (lpg doesnt swirl) ran fine for 50k miles.
Yars 1.5 t-sport. same deal. ran fine for 35k miles, but it did start to develop some cold running issues/stutters. googleing suggested the valves in that engine werent up to LPG (soft valves). however i sold it wiothout actually investigating the problems. could have been a fuel filter for all i know as I didn't service it once!
I had a WRX that was converted by the south wales people, the owner went on a course where you assist with the conversion over two days and then get certified to install yourself. Ran absolutely fine for something like 40,000 miles+ until I sold it. I think the cost without the course would have been £1800, it was a "Romano N" conversion.
I have had 2 LPG cars - a jag 97 x300 3.2 (converted in 2002 ish) and a 1998 320CLK (converted in 2011)
The jag was a Romano, did over 100k in it and had few issues, the conversion was expensive at around £2k and completed by avon autogas who i don't think are still trading. the merc was converted by the 'south wales people' and had the stag system. The Merc was a cheap conversion and if i'm honest was never happy as it was never as effortless as the Jag.
When i had the jag done lpg was around 35ppl, much cheaper than petrol, these days if i was in the boat again and needed a high mileage car i'd go diesel. I think the LPG boat has long sailed...
The jag was a Romano, did over 100k in it and had few issues, the conversion was expensive at around £2k and completed by avon autogas who i don't think are still trading. the merc was converted by the 'south wales people' and had the stag system. The Merc was a cheap conversion and if i'm honest was never happy as it was never as effortless as the Jag.
When i had the jag done lpg was around 35ppl, much cheaper than petrol, these days if i was in the boat again and needed a high mileage car i'd go diesel. I think the LPG boat has long sailed...
craigjm said:
@Sebringman
I have just started a post about LPG in the alternative fuels section. I have a v12 6.0 Jag and ive had a quote from a company in south wales for a STAG system at 1800 plus vat and then a quote from somewhere in Leeds that says you need a twin ECU setup rather than the single offered by the STAG and are offering a twin KME Nevo ECU setup with Romano HD reducer and Hana injectors for the same money. The place in Leeds has gone into much more technical detail. Have you heard of or used either system?
A twin setup will do but it's done because the vapourisers cannot supply enough LPG. You can get around this by fitting large or 'Super' Vapourisers. Alot of people will fit bigger injectors because they think "It's a V12, it needs big injectors" But that is rubbish.I have just started a post about LPG in the alternative fuels section. I have a v12 6.0 Jag and ive had a quote from a company in south wales for a STAG system at 1800 plus vat and then a quote from somewhere in Leeds that says you need a twin ECU setup rather than the single offered by the STAG and are offering a twin KME Nevo ECU setup with Romano HD reducer and Hana injectors for the same money. The place in Leeds has gone into much more technical detail. Have you heard of or used either system?
Think of it this way. If a 4 pot Mondeo can get away with normal injectors why can't a Jaguar. It makes even more sense when you look at these workings:
Capacity Cylinders Power Size/cylinder Power/Cylinder
6000 12 315 500.0 26.3
1998 4 143 499.5 35.8
3000 6 215 500.0 35.8
3000 6 220 500.0 36.7
2500 6 170 416.7 28.3
In short, a V12 does not quite consume that much more fuel per cylinder over a 4 pot per cylinder. The power outputs are also similar.
But in short it should be OK. I'd prefer to use one vapouriser to do the lot but TBH alot of the issues in all LPG cars are down to installation, and not always the kit.
We had ours converted in Poland and they did a real top notch job, Chap that did the conversion has been doing them for over 30 years and designed and patented his own design of vaporiser for more powerful engines and seems like a mad professor type. So far 6 months in we have had no issues whatsoever with the conversion. Its a liquid phase injection system we had installed as this is apparently the latest tech. No loss of power and a constant 23mpg on gas.
Fuel tank is hidden in the boot floor, Filler behind the fuel flap so no ugly filler on the bodywork or bumper. All the LPG gubbins including the piggyback ECU is hidden under the engine bay plastic so nobody can tell i'm a cheapskate.
We looked around in the UK and the prices seemed insane for a conversion, Also personally I would rather have an installer from Central/Eastern Europe do the install as the technology is well proven in these parts and they have much more experience with LPG compared to the UK where it isn't too common.
If you fancy a road trip and cheap beer I could always ask my wife to call our installer and get a price for you, We paid 900ish quid for a v8 Lexus. After the LPG experience I would never in a million years go back to a dirty diesel. Its well worth the money
Also beware of the UKLPG website. Its run by a LTD company and isn't a compulsory register although their website reads in this way. To let the DVLA know you just need the installation certificate in English (Which the installer provides) and the EU certificate of conformity (Again the installer provides) Send these to the DVLA and they change the fuel type.
Fuel tank is hidden in the boot floor, Filler behind the fuel flap so no ugly filler on the bodywork or bumper. All the LPG gubbins including the piggyback ECU is hidden under the engine bay plastic so nobody can tell i'm a cheapskate.
We looked around in the UK and the prices seemed insane for a conversion, Also personally I would rather have an installer from Central/Eastern Europe do the install as the technology is well proven in these parts and they have much more experience with LPG compared to the UK where it isn't too common.
If you fancy a road trip and cheap beer I could always ask my wife to call our installer and get a price for you, We paid 900ish quid for a v8 Lexus. After the LPG experience I would never in a million years go back to a dirty diesel. Its well worth the money
Also beware of the UKLPG website. Its run by a LTD company and isn't a compulsory register although their website reads in this way. To let the DVLA know you just need the installation certificate in English (Which the installer provides) and the EU certificate of conformity (Again the installer provides) Send these to the DVLA and they change the fuel type.
We had our Alphard converted by the Polish bloke in South Wales. Quality job, sorted out an intermittent stalling issue with a tweak on the laptop. Very happy with it.
He's a really decent chap, too and has adopted a scruffy little farm cat which will come and sit with you whilst you're in his waiting area.
He's a really decent chap, too and has adopted a scruffy little farm cat which will come and sit with you whilst you're in his waiting area.
CDB1983 said:
We had ours converted in Poland and they did a real top notch job, Chap that did the conversion has been doing them for over 30 years and designed and patented his own design of vaporiser for more powerful engines and seems like a mad professor type. So far 6 months in we have had no issues whatsoever with the conversion. Its a liquid phase injection system we had installed as this is apparently the latest tech. No loss of power and a constant 23mpg on gas.
Fuel tank is hidden in the boot floor, Filler behind the fuel flap so no ugly filler on the bodywork or bumper. All the LPG gubbins including the piggyback ECU is hidden under the engine bay plastic so nobody can tell i'm a cheapskate.
We looked around in the UK and the prices seemed insane for a conversion, Also personally I would rather have an installer from Central/Eastern Europe do the install as the technology is well proven in these parts and they have much more experience with LPG compared to the UK where it isn't too common.
If you fancy a road trip and cheap beer I could always ask my wife to call our installer and get a price for you, We paid 900ish quid for a v8 Lexus. After the LPG experience I would never in a million years go back to a dirty diesel. Its well worth the money
Also beware of the UKLPG website. Its run by a LTD company and isn't a compulsory register although their website reads in this way. To let the DVLA know you just need the installation certificate in English (Which the installer provides) and the EU certificate of conformity (Again the installer provides) Send these to the DVLA and they change the fuel type.
Could you PM me their details? I'm going to buy something with a V8 in the next month or so and want to take it over to Poland to get it done - that place sounds perfect. Thanks!Fuel tank is hidden in the boot floor, Filler behind the fuel flap so no ugly filler on the bodywork or bumper. All the LPG gubbins including the piggyback ECU is hidden under the engine bay plastic so nobody can tell i'm a cheapskate.
We looked around in the UK and the prices seemed insane for a conversion, Also personally I would rather have an installer from Central/Eastern Europe do the install as the technology is well proven in these parts and they have much more experience with LPG compared to the UK where it isn't too common.
If you fancy a road trip and cheap beer I could always ask my wife to call our installer and get a price for you, We paid 900ish quid for a v8 Lexus. After the LPG experience I would never in a million years go back to a dirty diesel. Its well worth the money
Also beware of the UKLPG website. Its run by a LTD company and isn't a compulsory register although their website reads in this way. To let the DVLA know you just need the installation certificate in English (Which the installer provides) and the EU certificate of conformity (Again the installer provides) Send these to the DVLA and they change the fuel type.
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