How long do you think Till There are Proper Electric cars?
Discussion
Follow up on the number of chargers required, a new Asda in South Ruislip has opened with 46 EV charging bays. They're not DC rapid charge, just regular Pod Point posts but people will be able to top up a bit there while they shop. This is the sort of infrastructure that will allow EV usage to become widespread, easily available power in lots of places.
MaximumJed said:
Follow up on the number of chargers required, a new Asda in South Ruislip has opened with 46 EV charging bays. They're not DC rapid charge, just regular Pod Point posts but people will be able to top up a bit there while they shop. This is the sort of infrastructure that will allow EV usage to become widespread, easily available power in lots of places.
How do you prevent IcE vehicles from parking in those bays? As those bays will naturally be closer to the store it is not illegal to park in those bays only disabled. Sure only knobs would do so OR anyone if rest of car park is full
Welshbeef said:
How do you prevent IcE vehicles from parking in those bays?
As those bays will naturally be closer to the store it is not illegal to park in those bays only disabled. Sure only knobs would do so OR anyone if rest of car park is full
Hopefully as more and more charge bays are put in the chance of ICEing will be reduced. From the picture that I have seen, the charge points have been placed around the perimeter of the car park so there aren't so many placed close to the entrance. I believe the main reason people take parent/child and EV charging bays is where they are located so placing them further away should make people less likely to take one by preference.As those bays will naturally be closer to the store it is not illegal to park in those bays only disabled. Sure only knobs would do so OR anyone if rest of car park is full
again, all these things like top up charging while you're shopping, overnight at home, in your work car park, basically plug in and charge whenever your car is parked are all great for now while hardly anyone has EVs. but once 90% of cars are electric the overall power consumption will be huge. it will be like that power spike in the middle of a big football match when everyone puts the kettle on, but will be everyone puts their car on to charge after work at 7pm using the same 3kW power as a kettle, but for 12hrs not 3 minutes. where is all the extra power going to come from without building dozens of new power stations? and even once you've done that, the local grid surely isn't set up to supply that sort of power continuously to entire streets?
Max_Torque said:
As more and more people buy EVs the infrastructure will increase to support that need. As what won't happen is people actually driving further. My daily commute takes around 7 to 8kWH. Off a std 10A mains socket, that means a charge time of around 4 hrs, which can be fitted into my day ANY time during the 22 hrs i'm not driving the car. So, just because your new EV has a 100kWh battery doesn't mean you're going to use that extra capacity, and hence need to charge it up.
As i have said many times, the 'end game' is people charging big capacity EVs at work (from local solar on company roof) and then taking most of that energy home with them to run their house overnight! A scheme that REDUCES the reliance on our grid (and leverages a high level of renewables too, and all pretty much for free (just needs tax incentives for companies to install the solar arrays)
I would have thought that if you divide most workplaces roof area, by the number of people working there you would be more likely to be charging their mobile phones, than their cars. I admit I haven't done the maths, so I'm happy to be corrected.As i have said many times, the 'end game' is people charging big capacity EVs at work (from local solar on company roof) and then taking most of that energy home with them to run their house overnight! A scheme that REDUCES the reliance on our grid (and leverages a high level of renewables too, and all pretty much for free (just needs tax incentives for companies to install the solar arrays)
Welshbeef said:
I'm not sure I agree with that.
Travel costs do come into families decisions to go somewhere or not. If it's practically free to do it or fractions of what an ICE would cost then you may start to see more and more frequent trips.
This is almost what happened when I had the i3. Trips that I used to do with the train I started doing with the car. In the end it was a cost of parking vs cost of train decision.Travel costs do come into families decisions to go somewhere or not. If it's practically free to do it or fractions of what an ICE would cost then you may start to see more and more frequent trips.
ruggedscotty said:
terrific idea, but......
A street light is absolute tops these days 100w
A rapid charger is way into the Kw territory.
Massive upgrade of the infrastructure is needed to support this
That's based on the current "charging" paradigm used by ICE cars - run it until it's empty then fill it up fast. If you could top up whenever you weren't using it, you wouldn't need fast charging much.A street light is absolute tops these days 100w
A rapid charger is way into the Kw territory.
Massive upgrade of the infrastructure is needed to support this
c6r said:
again, all these things like top up charging while you're shopping, overnight at home, in your work car park, basically plug in and charge whenever your car is parked are all great for now while hardly anyone has EVs. but once 90% of cars are electric the overall power consumption will be huge. it will be like that power spike in the middle of a big football match when everyone puts the kettle on, but will be everyone puts their car on to charge after work at 7pm using the same 3kW power as a kettle, but for 12hrs not 3 minutes. where is all the extra power going to come from without building dozens of new power stations? and even once you've done that, the local grid surely isn't set up to supply that sort of power continuously to entire streets?
You need about 7kWh per day for a car. Your 3kW kettle analogy would mean just over 2 hours, not 12. To put in another way for a 12Hr charge period you would be drawing 0.6kW. That's about the same consumption as my kitchen lights, and half the consumption of my garden lights.Now bear in mind that the majority of charging will be done overnight.
And as i said, the big change required is the move to workplace charging, so we can leverage cheap solar power, and charge all our cars without grid reliance, from renewables, during the time those cars are parked up in the day (which is most of it)
for example, motorsports firm Prodrive have installed a 636kW solar array on it's roof:
ProdriveSolarRoof
Even if it can manage under half that output on average, say 300kW, that's 100 charging slots for 3Kw EV's per day. (able to charge more than 100 cars per day because a typical EV won't require 3kW for 8 hours (24kWh) but just around 7 or 8)
for example, motorsports firm Prodrive have installed a 636kW solar array on it's roof:
ProdriveSolarRoof
Even if it can manage under half that output on average, say 300kW, that's 100 charging slots for 3Kw EV's per day. (able to charge more than 100 cars per day because a typical EV won't require 3kW for 8 hours (24kWh) but just around 7 or 8)
Max_Torque said:
And as i said, the big change required is the move to workplace charging, so we can leverage cheap solar power, and charge all our cars without grid reliance, from renewables, during the time those cars are parked up in the day (which is most of it)
for example, motorsports firm Prodrive have installed a 636kW solar array on it's roof:
ProdriveSolarRoof
Even if it can manage under half that output on average, say 300kW, that's 100 charging slots for 3Kw EV's per day. (able to charge more than 100 cars per day because a typical EV won't require 3kW for 8 hours (24kWh) but just around 7 or 8)
Do you have a solar array? for example, motorsports firm Prodrive have installed a 636kW solar array on it's roof:
ProdriveSolarRoof
Even if it can manage under half that output on average, say 300kW, that's 100 charging slots for 3Kw EV's per day. (able to charge more than 100 cars per day because a typical EV won't require 3kW for 8 hours (24kWh) but just around 7 or 8)
Depending on the precise orientation, on a perfect summers day, that array will knock out about 550 kW. An hour either side of max insolation it will be at 400 kW. 2 hours either side it will be well below 300 kW.
If it is remotely cloudy in high summer your peak will be about 300, tailing off to 75.
In winter, on a sunny day, the peak will be about 75kW, tailing off to sod all quite quickly.
So yes, for two or three months in the summer, as long as it is sunny, the plan will work. In the winter (october - April) everyone is walking home. If it is cloudy, half the people are walking home.
I've scaled these figures from real data from our 4kW array, not that far from Banbury, so they'll be reasonably accurate.
The problem with solar is that in this country it generates max power precisely when we don't need it. Our max demand is winter evenings, not midday in the summer. It makes economic sense only because the government subsidises the hell out of it - take away the subsidy, and the payback doesn't happen, even at the current low prices. It makes a lot more sense in places closer to the equator with more sun and a higher a/c load.
You also need to remember that the '7.x gw generated by solar' is absolute fiction. It is an extrapolation from FIT payments which contain a whole load of assumptions about export. Our array exports sod all, even in high summer - it is busy running our domestic load and making hot water....
rxe said:
Max_Torque said:
And as i said, the big change required is the move to workplace charging, so we can leverage cheap solar power, and charge all our cars without grid reliance, from renewables, during the time those cars are parked up in the day (which is most of it)
for example, motorsports firm Prodrive have installed a 636kW solar array on it's roof:
ProdriveSolarRoof
Even if it can manage under half that output on average, say 300kW, that's 100 charging slots for 3Kw EV's per day. (able to charge more than 100 cars per day because a typical EV won't require 3kW for 8 hours (24kWh) but just around 7 or 8)
Do you have a solar array? for example, motorsports firm Prodrive have installed a 636kW solar array on it's roof:
ProdriveSolarRoof
Even if it can manage under half that output on average, say 300kW, that's 100 charging slots for 3Kw EV's per day. (able to charge more than 100 cars per day because a typical EV won't require 3kW for 8 hours (24kWh) but just around 7 or 8)
Depending on the precise orientation, on a perfect summers day, that array will knock out about 550 kW. An hour either side of max insolation it will be at 400 kW. 2 hours either side it will be well below 300 kW.
If it is remotely cloudy in high summer your peak will be about 300, tailing off to 75.
In winter, on a sunny day, the peak will be about 75kW, tailing off to sod all quite quickly.
So yes, for two or three months in the summer, as long as it is sunny, the plan will work. In the winter (october - April) everyone is walking home. If it is cloudy, half the people are walking home.
I've scaled these figures from real data from our 4kW array, not that far from Banbury, so they'll be reasonably accurate.
The problem with solar is that in this country it generates max power precisely when we don't need it. Our max demand is winter evenings, not midday in the summer. It makes economic sense only because the government subsidises the hell out of it - take away the subsidy, and the payback doesn't happen, even at the current low prices. It makes a lot more sense in places closer to the equator with more sun and a higher a/c load.
You also need to remember that the '7.x gw generated by solar' is absolute fiction. It is an extrapolation from FIT payments which contain a whole load of assumptions about export. Our array exports sod all, even in high summer - it is busy running our domestic load and making hot water....
Ok, lets say it only averages 100kW for 8 hours, that's 800kWH, or enough to feed around 100 EVs typical daily consumption needs. Plenty of energy.
However, you make a good point about peak power being midday, which is why i suggest we use our, increasingly energy dense, EVs to take power home with us after leaving them to charge during the day in the work car park.......
don't know anything about that prodrive site, maybe it'll be great for them, likewise for any building which has a relatively big roof compared to the number of people inside. but most big business parks i see around here, the sort of place where everyone drives to work, are mainly made up of sort of mid-rise offices maybe 4-5 stories high. iirc, the minimum floor space per person is about 5sqm, but even if your kind employer lets you have double that, once you've shared your 10sqm of area with the other 4 floors i think you'd be lucky to get more than 2sqm of roof area per person. at 100w per sqm you can probably drive home after 8h of charging on a good day and you live nearby, but a lot of the time it isn't going to happen - so you have to keep your car fairly well charged anyway just in case it turns cloudy after you arrive at work. so it will help a bit, but not really something to rely on. maybe every EV should have a huge fold out 20sqm solar panel like a satellite does - unfurl it when you park and wind it back in at 6pm when you need to go home.
i hadn't realised the power requirements were so low actually - 7kwh per day for a car doesn't sound like much does it. but once everyone has one that is still a lot of power in total though. there are approx. 25m cars in the UK. if 90% of them become electric and use 7kwh a day on an overnight trickle charge that would still be an extra 20% more electricity than we currently produce. are wind and solar going to be able to supply that?
i hadn't realised the power requirements were so low actually - 7kwh per day for a car doesn't sound like much does it. but once everyone has one that is still a lot of power in total though. there are approx. 25m cars in the UK. if 90% of them become electric and use 7kwh a day on an overnight trickle charge that would still be an extra 20% more electricity than we currently produce. are wind and solar going to be able to supply that?
FurtiveFreddy said:
Who makes your panels and do you have them connected to something similar to a Powerwall?
I think the panels themselves are Sharp. The inverter is a SolarEdge. There is absolutely zero point in a powerwall, we don't generate enough, other than a few days in the summer. We have an iSolar power diverter that dumps all excess into hot water - today (cloudy, wet) we've just about got a tankful.I have a vague plan to put something approaching 15kW on my new garage/workshop, which will drive the underfloor heating on most months of the year ... in the summer a battery may be viable, but I don't think it makes financial sense. I might plan the inverters to give me 3-phase - I've got quotes for that from SSE to do that which run to £20k, so DIY is financially viable.
As to the cars - if you're using 3 kW to get to work, the answer is a bicycle rather than an electric car.
This is Tesla's vision of how charging will be in the near future. Large 50-100 car capacity stations with the power being provided by solar panels and battery storage instead of taking it from the grid.
The immediate response to that will be "we don't have enough sunshine in the UK" but if the panel arrays are big enough and new technology makes them more efficient, that will become less of an issue. Even if it is, battery storage will allow power to be taken from the grid in a controlled way so a sudden influx of cars won't cause a spike in demand.
Tesla's solar panel's are manufactured in a partnership with Panasonic, who's current mass produced panels are close to 22% efficient.
The immediate response to that will be "we don't have enough sunshine in the UK" but if the panel arrays are big enough and new technology makes them more efficient, that will become less of an issue. Even if it is, battery storage will allow power to be taken from the grid in a controlled way so a sudden influx of cars won't cause a spike in demand.
Tesla's solar panel's are manufactured in a partnership with Panasonic, who's current mass produced panels are close to 22% efficient.
Z3MCJez said:
Imagine that photo above, but with the tarmac containing the solar collectors. That's the future.
It needs a technical revolution though.
Jez
no, no it isn't.It needs a technical revolution though.
Jez
what you'd save by making the road solar:
1) The cost of some metal poles to hold the overhead array
What it's cost you:
1) Having to develop new panels that are robust enough to drive on
2) Having to have the panels in a highly non optimum alignment to the sun
3) Having to somehow have a clean road to avoid reflective losses
4) Having to ensure the panels don't get scuffed by vehicles
5) Having to mount, drain, and wire all those panels underground or in conduit or whatever
6) Having to deal with a 'precision' fitting road surface (take a look at how much our roads already cost, then add 1000x the cost to ensure than they are built to sub mm accuracy (rather than +- 1 inch as currently)
The only reason to put solar panels into a road are because you've already run out of space above/beside/around the road........... (which we haven't by a long way)
Max_Torque said:
Z3MCJez said:
Imagine that photo above, but with the tarmac containing the solar collectors. That's the future.
It needs a technical revolution though.
Jez
no, no it isn't.It needs a technical revolution though.
Jez
what you'd save by making the road solar:
1) The cost of some metal poles to hold the overhead array
What it's cost you:
1) Having to develop new panels that are robust enough to drive on
2) Having to have the panels in a highly non optimum alignment to the sun
3) Having to somehow have a clean road to avoid reflective losses
4) Having to ensure the panels don't get scuffed by vehicles
5) Having to mount, drain, and wire all those panels underground or in conduit or whatever
6) Having to deal with a 'precision' fitting road surface (take a look at how much our roads already cost, then add 1000x the cost to ensure than they are built to sub mm accuracy (rather than +- 1 inch as currently)
The only reason to put solar panels into a road are because you've already run out of space above/beside/around the road........... (which we haven't by a long way)
FurtiveFreddy said:
This is Tesla's vision of how charging will be in the near future. Large 50-100 car capacity stations with the power being provided by solar panels and battery storage instead of taking it from the grid.
The immediate response to that will be "we don't have enough sunshine in the UK" but if the panel arrays are big enough and new technology makes them more efficient, that will become less of an issue. Even if it is, battery storage will allow power to be taken from the grid in a controlled way so a sudden influx of cars won't cause a spike in demand.
Tesla's solar panel's are manufactured in a partnership with Panasonic, who's current mass produced panels are close to 22% efficient.
Simple maths shows that simply doesn't add up. Each car space has 6 panels - that's about 1.2 kW, peak in ideal conditions at midday. One single car coming in and demanding a (say) 40 kW charge wipes out an entire bank for the duration of the charge.The immediate response to that will be "we don't have enough sunshine in the UK" but if the panel arrays are big enough and new technology makes them more efficient, that will become less of an issue. Even if it is, battery storage will allow power to be taken from the grid in a controlled way so a sudden influx of cars won't cause a spike in demand.
Tesla's solar panel's are manufactured in a partnership with Panasonic, who's current mass produced panels are close to 22% efficient.
So 2 or 3 cars wipes out the site's generating capacity at midday. One car takes it all in the afternoon. There's nothing left for the batteries, assuming the site is used at all.
Free leccy from the sun is great, but they need to be realistic about the yield. People have been claiming cheap high efficiency panels for years - getting such technology out of the lab and onto a roof for 20 years has proved rather hard.
Edited by rxe on Wednesday 14th June 00:04
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