how long till hybrid lorries

Author
Discussion

RayTay

467 posts

97 months

Friday 7th July 2017
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Hybrid trucks? A lot quicker than you think.
France will 'ban all petrol and diesel vehicles by 2040'
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/france-pe...

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Friday 7th July 2017
quotequote all
RayTay said:
Hybrid trucks? A lot quicker than you think.
France will 'ban all petrol and diesel vehicles by 2040'
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/france-pe...
All newly registered cars.

Probably.

In 23 years time. Four more presidential elections between now and then.

RayTay

467 posts

97 months

Friday 7th July 2017
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German Lawmakers Vote To Ban Petrol And Diesel Cars By 2030:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/german-lawma...

Otispunkmeyer

12,557 posts

154 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
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Glasgowrob said:
John Lewis are using dual fuel trucks are they not
Probably have a few old dual fuel about (old Hardstaff systems maybe if they're mercs). But JLP have a decent fleet of CNG dedicated gas trucks with 250bar tanks so that they can do 500km on a fill.

Btw Leeds are looking to use CNG refuse trucks and Nottingham already run a fleet of pure EV buses. They are BYD buses and I am not sure if they have regeneration capabilities. The price tag was apparently eye watering though!

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Sunday 9th July 19:45

Jimbo.

3,941 posts

188 months

Friday 14th July 2017
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Weight is the killer, I suspect. 1 tonne of hybrid = 1 tonne less cargo. Multiply that over a fleet and you're soon looking at needing an extra truck or theee to haul those lost tonnes. Which means another wagon, another driver, more VED, fuel, possible O-licence issues, maintenance, more loading movements etc.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
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I was sat in traffic next to a Sheffield City Council 3-4yo LWB twin-rear-wheel Transit minibus yesterday, signage proudly proclaiming that it was a hybrid - aftermarket conversion of some kind, I forget who the badge said. It did indeed seem to be moving forward silently.

Otispunkmeyer

12,557 posts

154 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
I was sat in traffic next to a Sheffield City Council 3-4yo LWB twin-rear-wheel Transit minibus yesterday, signage proudly proclaiming that it was a hybrid - aftermarket conversion of some kind, I forget who the badge said. It did indeed seem to be moving forward silently.
Magtec are Sheffield based...

RayTay

467 posts

97 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
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Jimbo. said:
Weight is the killer, I suspect. 1 tonne of hybrid = 1 tonne less cargo.
The weight of batteries, engine, transmission, petro fuel, etc, is usually about the same as a full EV setup. Electric motors can be very small for their HP. In a bus the batteries can be fitted lower beneath the passenger deck, giving a greater centre of gravity, meaning a bus is safer in being more stable on the road, especially double-deckers. Also make the whole of a buses roof PVs and the batteries last longer. Add supercapacitors and the bus can be charged up at each bus stop via overhead catenary at the stop, as they do in Shanghai. There is no excuse for trucks and buses that only operate in cities not to be EV.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
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RayTay said:
he weight of batteries, engine, transmission, petro fuel, etc, is usually about the same as a full EV setup.
No, it isn't. Not if you want anything above a nominal range.

A Leaf battery pack is 300kg.
A Model S battery pack is twice that.

Hyundai Ioniq is 50kg heavier as an all-electric (28kWh battery + motor - ICE) than a hybrid (1.5kWh battery + motor + ICE). The plug-in hybrid (9kWh battery + motor + ICE) is 75kg heavier than the all-electric.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
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Jimbo. said:
Weight is the killer, I suspect. 1 tonne of hybrid = 1 tonne less cargo..
Question: How many loads run out of weight before they run out of space?

Ie, you have a 44 tonne truck, if you're carrying feathers then it's unlikely you can build a lorry big enough to get it to max payload. But, if you're carrying gold, then clearly the maximum GVW is going to be an issue before volume becomes limiting.

In reality, i suspect not that many lorry journeys are at max GVW? (some are, obvs, but i bet a huge number of then aren't, especially for local runs, where electric trucks can make the biggest difference)

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
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Max_Torque said:
Question: How many loads run out of weight before they run out of space?

Ie, you have a 44 tonne truck, if you're carrying feathers then it's unlikely you can build a lorry big enough to get it to max payload. But, if you're carrying gold, then clearly the maximum GVW is going to be an issue before volume becomes limiting.

In reality, i suspect not that many lorry journeys are at max GVW? (some are, obvs, but i bet a huge number of then aren't, especially for local runs, where electric trucks can make the biggest difference)
38/44t artics?
Or 7.5t/3.5t? I suspect the answer is very different...

RayTay

467 posts

97 months

Saturday 15th July 2017
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TooMany2cvs said:
No, it isn't. Not if you want anything above a nominal range.

A Leaf battery pack is 300kg.
A Model S battery pack is twice that.

Hyundai Ioniq is 50kg heavier as an all-electric (28kWh battery + motor - ICE) than a hybrid (1.5kWh battery + motor + ICE). The plug-in hybrid (9kWh battery + motor + ICE) is 75kg heavier than the all-electric.
A car that performs like an EV will be about the same weight. Look at a leaf vs a Golf (eqiv of GTI) on a drag track. The Golf won by a whisker. And the EV does not pollute or ruin people's lungs.



Talksteer

4,843 posts

232 months

Thursday 17th August 2017
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Fully electric lorries are likely to happen earlier than people realise. Easiest option is to replace the 44 tonne HGV, I suspect this is the maths Tesla have done.

1: Maximum range of a truck in the EU is 220 miles before it has to stop.

2: This equates to around a 800kwh battery which will weigh around 5000kg. Given that we can chuck the engine, gearbox, differential, fuel tanks, exhaust this probably means more like a 3000kg loss of payload.

3: The truck drives its 220 miles and stops at a service station, while the drive has their break the battery is swapped for a charged one. Swapping batteries is much easier on a truck than a car as their weights and form factors are standardised by regulations making a common battery shape much easier.

4: The battery is then charged and placed on another truck.

This wouldn't work for all trucks but a very high proportion run predictable routes and will be able to stop at a limited number of service stations, certainly enough to build a network. The batteries would cost around £100k at current prices but given a truck burns £100k of fuel a year the payback time for the battery would only be a few years given the cost of electricity vs diesel.

In the medium timeframe expect the capacity to go up to allow 2 stints before a recharge and fast charging to allow the vehicle to be charged rather than the battery swapped. In the longer term the drive gets chucked, the tractor units gets more aero and the tractor simply swaps with a charged unit when out of range.

Yipper

5,964 posts

89 months

Thursday 17th August 2017
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You're looking at 10-15% of all trucks sold worldwide being electric or hybrid by 2030.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Thursday 17th August 2017
quotequote all
Talksteer said:
Fully electric lorries are likely to happen earlier than people realise. Easiest option is to replace the 44 tonne HGV, I suspect this is the maths Tesla have done.

1: Maximum range of a truck in the EU is 220 miles before it has to stop.

...

3: The truck drives its 220 miles and stops at a service station...
And all HGV breaks are done at service stations, are they?

We won't look at the maths for how many batteries would need to be charging, their capacity, and the size of the cables that'd be going to these service stations - we've done that umpteen times before.

hidetheelephants

23,772 posts

192 months

Thursday 17th August 2017
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Max_Torque said:
For prime-movers doing local delivery type operations then heavy hybridisation, exhaust heat recovery, or full Electrification makes a lot of sense (low average speed, lots of stop starting), but for longer distance inter-city operations then alternate solutions are starting to be developed:

We had this 60 years ago, but for reasons which are obscure to me trolley buses were binned.

buggalugs

9,243 posts

236 months

Thursday 17th August 2017
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Lobbying from tyre companies wasn't it?

donkmeister

7,998 posts

99 months

Friday 18th August 2017
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Max_Torque said:
Question: How many loads run out of weight before they run out of space?
I have a very narrow answer from my limited experience of haulage...
I used to work at a waste transfer station (ie household tip) and we could get a 44 tonne artic right up to 44 tonnes with waste destined for landfill. That involved squashing it down with the bucket of a 50-tonne front loader to the point the trailer suspension was almost bottoming out.
As landfill compromises the same things that lorries are taking to the shops but packed tightly, then i would agree with your assertion few lorries are limitedby their GVW for most jobs.

RayTay

467 posts

97 months

Monday 28th August 2017
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Modern batteries can charge up fast. So a truck driver having a break on an Mway can partially top his batteries as he is resting and eating. A full charge at the beginning and end of each run. Just like you charge your phone.

This is highly encouraging:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rybpaqhg5Qg

Edited by RayTay on Tuesday 29th August 08:10

RayTay

467 posts

97 months

Tuesday 29th August 2017
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hidetheelephants said:
We had this 60 years ago, but for reasons which are obscure to me trolley buses were binned.
Trollybuses are used in other countries. The overhead wires are expensive to install and maintain. In trains the 3rd rail is cheaper to maintain than overhead wires, but more expensive to install. So we standardised on wires. Wires slacken off needing heavy maintenance at times. Also wires in cities are ugly and troublesome. In NZ vandals pull them down with ropes. There are induction rails uses in some street tram systems around the world.

Batteries will probably replace the lot with quick charging points at bus stops/stations. The advances in batteries and supercaps is a game changer....and the best is yet to come.