New Lithium batteries with 3 times the storage
Discussion
Stu08 said:
I am on the correct forum?
For people who enjoy the experience of driving? I'm noticing more eco-warriors posting about how EV's are the future and how horrible and polluting IC cars are.
EVs are the future.For people who enjoy the experience of driving? I'm noticing more eco-warriors posting about how EV's are the future and how horrible and polluting IC cars are.
But, quit your whining, as you've never had it so good with your dinojucie burners.
Take a look at just some of the amazing ICE cars that have come out this year:
From several million to a few thousand, we've NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD
Kawasicki said:
silver1011 said:
LuS1fer said:
My mate has a Nissan Leaf and I just can't start talking about it. 
The fact its faster to 30 mph than your car hurts does it!?
Pretty unimpressive
Mr GrimNasty said:
You could fill the internet with stories about 'game changing' batteries.
They are simply people seeking funding publicised by green nutjobs/ideologues with an agenda to make you believe a new energy paradigm is possible - it isn't.
There are millions of interesting lab scale batteries and effects, they never see the light of day.
If you read the article you'd have noticed all the usual red-flag caveats you always get in suck 'miracle' battery development articles.
why isn't 'a new energy paradigm' possible? Hasn't it already happened about three times in the last 150 years? steam power, electricity, internal combustion engine, nuclear power? What would be so remarkable about moving to electricity for powering vehicles (i mean, other than the ones that are already electrically powered...).They are simply people seeking funding publicised by green nutjobs/ideologues with an agenda to make you believe a new energy paradigm is possible - it isn't.
There are millions of interesting lab scale batteries and effects, they never see the light of day.
If you read the article you'd have noticed all the usual red-flag caveats you always get in suck 'miracle' battery development articles.
The lithium ion battery didn't exist on a widespread commercial basis until about 20 years ago. It's everywhere now. The idea was first proposed in the 1970s.
time and time again science (and engineering) translates fundamental results developed in labs into real products that benefit people's lives. Pretty much any technology you used today has been through that process. there is no reason that batteries are going to be any different.
All of the initial problems wit the current technology - decomposition of the electrolyte, dendrite formation, swelling of cells as charge/recharge cycles process, etc. etc. have been solved with chemistry and with clever engineering. The same process will allow the commercialisation of new electrode systems for higher densities. In the last few years, the first commercial batteries with silicon anodes have become available and these have much higher power densities. This was a lab technology only a few years ago.
Edited by glasgow mega snake on Saturday 1st July 11:07
glasgow mega snake said:
why isn't 'a new energy paradigm' possible? Hasn't it already happened about three times in the last 150 years? steam power, electricity, internal combustion engine, nuclear power? What would be so remarkable about moving to electricity for powering vehicles (i mean, other than the ones that are already electrically powered...).
The highlight is mine.glasgow mega snake said:
The lithium ion battery didn't exist on a widespread commercial basis until about 20 years ago. It's everywhere now. The idea was first proposed in the 1970s.
A new detail wrinkly in technology does not mean a new paradigm. It means a tickle to efficiency.glasgow mega snake said:
time and time again science (and engineering) translates fundamental results developed in labs into real products that benefit people's lives. Pretty much any technology you used today has been through that process. there is no reason that batteries are going to be any different.
All of the initial problems wit the current technology - decomposition of the electrolyte, dendrite formation, swelling of cells as charge/recharge cycles process, etc. etc. have been solved with chemistry and with clever engineering. The same process will allow the commercialisation of new electrode systems for higher densities. In the last few years, the first commercial batteries with silicon anodes have become available and these have much higher power densities. This was a lab technology only a few years ago.
I agree. And those increased power densities will address some of the current detail problems slowing mainstream adoption. No more than that. They certainly won't solve ALL of them - in fact, they may well exacerbate some of them. Charge time, and grid capacity, in particular.All of the initial problems wit the current technology - decomposition of the electrolyte, dendrite formation, swelling of cells as charge/recharge cycles process, etc. etc. have been solved with chemistry and with clever engineering. The same process will allow the commercialisation of new electrode systems for higher densities. In the last few years, the first commercial batteries with silicon anodes have become available and these have much higher power densities. This was a lab technology only a few years ago.
At the end of the day, electricity is still a VERY, VERY long way from providing the energy density and recharge times of a tank of dinosaur. The cost-effectiveness advantage is a purely artificial one, brought about by inequalities in the way the fuels are taxed. Given how much government income comes from road fuel, you can bet that won't last once Joe Public starts to switch in any substantial numbers.
Mr GrimNasty said:
You could fill the internet with stories about 'game changing' batteries.
They are simply people seeking funding publicised by green nutjobs/ideologues with an agenda to make you believe a new energy paradigm is possible - it isn't.
This guy is the head of a team at Texas Uni. He invented the original Lith Ion battery. I would take all this seriously. They are simply people seeking funding publicised by green nutjobs/ideologues with an agenda to make you believe a new energy paradigm is possible - it isn't.
Edited by RayTay on Saturday 1st July 12:50
A problems with such fast charging is the electrical infrastructure to support all this charging. To charge a set of batteries fast that will propel a car 300-400 miles will need `big` cables. The existing grid will not cope, unless banks of large supercapacitors in charging stations are charged overnight and used during the day. The grid will need to time-share the charging of stations to spread the load. As EVs are introduced Infrastructure would need to be increased in capacity.
I've read that supercapacitors for EV charging are being experimented with right now. Trains use supercapacitors to claw back kinetic braking energy, it is a pretty mature technology. The way it is going, battery technology will outpace infrastructure installation.
Musk's PV roof tiles, which he says are cheaper than normal roof tiles, makes every roof a solar roof. This will alleviate the infrastructure increases. Utility companies could pay to reclad roofs to input into the grid locally.
In ten years time expect to see only EVs in cities. I can't wait to get rid of the pollution which ruins lungs and blackens buildings.
I've read that supercapacitors for EV charging are being experimented with right now. Trains use supercapacitors to claw back kinetic braking energy, it is a pretty mature technology. The way it is going, battery technology will outpace infrastructure installation.
Musk's PV roof tiles, which he says are cheaper than normal roof tiles, makes every roof a solar roof. This will alleviate the infrastructure increases. Utility companies could pay to reclad roofs to input into the grid locally.
In ten years time expect to see only EVs in cities. I can't wait to get rid of the pollution which ruins lungs and blackens buildings.
This new battery has terrific potential for electric planes. This plane on existing batteries can fly at 250mph for 600 miles. Either they can have a battery set one third of the size and weight or three times the range with the new battery breakthrough. I can see smallish passenger planes feeding the Heathrow hub. They will be cheap to run.
It will transform trams and trains. Overhead wires can be eliminated. To electrify rail track is very expensive. The diesel Wrexham to Birkenhead train cannot enter Liverpool as it is diesel is eliminated from the underground metro stations and tunnels. The line is too expensive to electrify. Now the solution is here. Hybrid battery/ electric trains.
Also road tunnels will not need the massive ventilation shafts & buildings and parallel vent tunnels they need now to extract the exhaust fumes. This makes road tunnels much cheaper build and maintain.
Ships? I can see market for coasters and river craft. Solar panels on the wheelhouse to help.
It will transform trams and trains. Overhead wires can be eliminated. To electrify rail track is very expensive. The diesel Wrexham to Birkenhead train cannot enter Liverpool as it is diesel is eliminated from the underground metro stations and tunnels. The line is too expensive to electrify. Now the solution is here. Hybrid battery/ electric trains.
Also road tunnels will not need the massive ventilation shafts & buildings and parallel vent tunnels they need now to extract the exhaust fumes. This makes road tunnels much cheaper build and maintain.
Ships? I can see market for coasters and river craft. Solar panels on the wheelhouse to help.
Edited by RayTay on Saturday 1st July 13:26
The Moose said:
ging84 said:
why does every thread with anything about electric cars always have to get instantly derailed by someone feeling thier need to vent about thier hatred for electric / hybrid cars.
No one gives a f
k that you don't like electric cars
I don't see it going that way at all...No one gives a f
k that you don't like electric carsEV exponents like to major on things that are good and ignore the bad like where does the electricity come from, where do the precious metals come from, who is going to pay to replace the batteries and recycle them, when they are spent, why are they subsidised and why is the range so poor you can't trust it to go any real distance.
I like dodgems myself....
RayTay said:
This new battery has terrific potential for electric planes. This plane on existing batteries can fly at 250mph for 600 miles. Either they can have a battery set one third of the size and weight or three times the range with the new battery breakthrough. I can see smallish passenger planes feeding the Heathrow hub. They will be cheap to run.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how big an electricity supply Heathrow would need...LuS1fer said:
EV exponents like to major on things that are good and ignore the bad like where does the electricity come from, where do the precious metals come from, who is going to pay to replace the batteries and recycle them, when they are spent, why are they subsidised and why is the range so poor you can't trust it to go any real distance.
Either you are mickey taking or just do not know. Teslas are getting 200 mile range. They beauty of the new batteries is that they are using glass and plastic electrolyte.100 years ago there was 15,000 EV charging points in New York, What put the IC car in favour over the EV was an electric motor, the starter motor. Modern batteries, as they stand, are powering battery trains in Japan with tests being done here in the UK. This is the beginning of the end for IC engines.
I am sure even you can remember the brick cell phones. Look at them now. Just a simple cell phone can last a week and fit in your top pocket. That progress has not stopped. The batteries have progressed and the efficiency of the electrical equipment as well.
RayTay said:
TooMany2cvs said:
I'm trying to wrap my head around how big an electricity supply Heathrow would need...
You making out it is an insurmountable problem. Drive a Tesla as I have. Wonderful quiet experience. I'm sure your Tesla is lovely, if you like that sort of thing. For that money, it needs to be. But that doesn't alter the basic facts of the power infrastructure in this country.
RayTay said:
ither you are mickey taking or just do not know. Teslas are getting 200 mile range. They beauty of the new batteries is that they are using glass and plastic electrolyte.
100 years ago there was 15,000 EV charging points in New York, What put the IC car in favour over the EV was an electric motor, the starter motor. Modern batteries, as they stand, are powering battery trains in Japan with tests being done here in the UK. This is the beginning of the end for IC engines.
I am sure even you can remember the brick cell phones. Look at them now. Just a simple cell phone can last a week and fit in your top pocket. That progress has not stopped. The batteries have progressed and the efficiency of the electrical equipment as well.
200. That's not far and probably a "best scenario", economising on lights, wipers, ac?100 years ago there was 15,000 EV charging points in New York, What put the IC car in favour over the EV was an electric motor, the starter motor. Modern batteries, as they stand, are powering battery trains in Japan with tests being done here in the UK. This is the beginning of the end for IC engines.
I am sure even you can remember the brick cell phones. Look at them now. Just a simple cell phone can last a week and fit in your top pocket. That progress has not stopped. The batteries have progressed and the efficiency of the electrical equipment as well.
Besides which, if you are treating a car as simply a white good, then that's fine but I really need more than that from a car.
The infrastructure for petrol is already in place. Until you can charge a car in the same time it takes to fill a tank, it's always going to be second best.
For inner cities, I am sure it will one day have its place but only when the cars are a lot cheaper.
Mr GrimNasty said:
They are simply people seeking funding publicised by green nutjobs/ideologues with an agenda to make you believe a new energy paradigm is possible - it isn't.
And you know this because?No doubt if you'd have been around 150 years ago you'd have been telling Lenoir he was wasting his time, or 250 years ago you'd have been telling Watt not to bother.
budgie smuggler said:
And you know this because?
No doubt if you'd have been around 150 years ago you'd have been telling Lenoir he was wasting his time, or 250 years ago you'd have been telling Watt not to bother.
Electricity through the agesNo doubt if you'd have been around 150 years ago you'd have been telling Lenoir he was wasting his time, or 250 years ago you'd have been telling Watt not to bother.
1600 - there's no way we can use this for anything practical, we can only generate it by rubbing a stick of amber with a cat. there isn't even a way to store it.
1750 - there's no way we can use this for anything, ok we can store electricity now but it's but even useful. and you can't fill a sack with Leiden jars in the same way you can with lumps of coal. we still have to make electricity with friction machines.
...
Every one talked about energy density, there are improvements in this and it will get better and better, of course a tank of fuel has a better energy density as it has the energy in the fuel, A battery has to be charged, and there has to be a way of storing that charge. we are seeing new ideas and this is bringing us to the point of no return. IC engine cars will fall away, they are last millennium. the benefits of electric cars far outweigh the IC vehicle.
Remember back to the future with the flux capacitor ? there are developments going on with high energy density capacitors. Ones that could be recharged very quickly say a few hundred miles in one charge ? can you imagine how that would affect the IC engine ? pull into the garage plug in your car go into the kiosk pays your money and then by the time you get back out to the car its fully charged and your off. a few minutes. This is the future and the future will be here soon enough.
hydrogen ? thats a no go, its an attempt by a car manufacturer to keep the ic engines going a while longer. no body wants that, why be bothered with servicing and all that when you could have a much more efficient motor battery combo than an engine ?
Remember back to the future with the flux capacitor ? there are developments going on with high energy density capacitors. Ones that could be recharged very quickly say a few hundred miles in one charge ? can you imagine how that would affect the IC engine ? pull into the garage plug in your car go into the kiosk pays your money and then by the time you get back out to the car its fully charged and your off. a few minutes. This is the future and the future will be here soon enough.
hydrogen ? thats a no go, its an attempt by a car manufacturer to keep the ic engines going a while longer. no body wants that, why be bothered with servicing and all that when you could have a much more efficient motor battery combo than an engine ?
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