Tesla Ups and Downs

[oop north]

rossfitz said:

It took 5 months from order for Tesla to get the correct pricing structure for my car (queue may calls to sales rep, customer and financial services). If I hadn't believed the car was going to be great, I probably would have given up.

I lost interest when the salesman didn't know about he price change that had happened the day before the test drive and there was another price change two days later. Got the feeling hey didn't know what they were doing on pricing

2.5 years on I am unsure whether or not I did the right thing - I have a discovery and an i3 that I have done 20k miles in each

[Otispunkmeyer]

ntiz said:

Thank god it's not just us!!! I was starting to wonder if I was the only one in the world who didn't think the Model S is the perfect car.

I agree about the downloads being more annoying than helpful. I do worry that Tesla cars will become more like my laptop than my car which would not be a good thing as I find most of the stuff my computers are meant to do they don't properly.

I do think the biggest problem for Tesla from my point of view is that when I spend this kind of money I expect a certain type of product and at the moment they just aren't quite there especially when you look at them in the cold light of day next to there competition and forget about it being an electric car.

I don't think they are a million miles away if they could get a real 300+ miles and sort there quality control out they would be on to a winner.

I was just thinking...the moment BMW or Merc produce an EV 7 series or S class...why would you buy a Tesla S (assuming similar pricing).

Tesla might be ahead on automation and factory set up, but the others will catch them. They have deep pockets. And when they do, the likes of the Germans have literally decades of experience in producing luxury interiors and the like. Tesla would be overshadowed less they reduce prices or improve quality.

I hear they still don't make any money on a model S. Not sure how true that is though.

[Heres Johnny]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I was just thinking...the moment BMW or Merc produce an EV 7 series or S class...why would you buy a Tesla S (assuming similar pricing).

Tesla might be ahead on automation and factory set up, but the others will catch them. They have deep pockets. And when they do, the likes of the Germans have literally decades of experience in producing luxury interiors and the like. Tesla would be overshadowed less they reduce prices or improve quality.

I hear they still don't make any money on a model S. Not sure how true that is though.

Supercharging - fastest way to charge at the moment and increasingly widespread.

AutoPilot. Audi A8 have just claimed theyre launching the first level 3 autonomous driving car, but it looks less featured than Teslas.

Solve those two, and they are solveable, and you'd have a point.

[babatunde]

Otispunkmeyer said:

ntiz said:

Thank god it's not just us!!! I was starting to wonder if I was the only one in the world who didn't think the Model S is the perfect car.

I agree about the downloads being more annoying than helpful. I do worry that Tesla cars will become more like my laptop than my car which would not be a good thing as I find most of the stuff my computers are meant to do they don't properly.

I do think the biggest problem for Tesla from my point of view is that when I spend this kind of money I expect a certain type of product and at the moment they just aren't quite there especially when you look at them in the cold light of day next to there competition and forget about it being an electric car.

I don't think they are a million miles away if they could get a real 300+ miles and sort there quality control out they would be on to a winner.

I was just thinking...the moment BMW or Merc produce an EV 7 series or S class...why would you buy a Tesla S (assuming similar pricing).

Tesla might be ahead on automation and factory set up, but the others will catch them. They have deep pockets. And when they do, the likes of the Germans have literally decades of experience in producing luxury interiors and the like. Tesla would be overshadowed less they reduce prices or improve quality.

I hear they still don't make any money on a model S. Not sure how true that is though.

Don't think even their biggest fans claim the S is perfect, my prevailing view is that the electric car is the future of mass transit, that Tesla are to be admired to trying to push that reality, and that if they continue down the path they are on they might well become the Apple of cars.

Stating that Mercs & BMWs had the luxury market sewn up is looking backwards, Tesla S outsold s-classes and & 7 Series in America last year, that isn't probably isn't a flunk, I'm sure similar thinking prevailed at RIM when the Iphone came out, the bigger picture IMO is the legions of Chinese companies who have jumped onto the EV bandwagon, initially for domestic consumption but this is going off topic.

It's good to hear from actual buyers and their real world experiences of Teslas compared to their peer cars, Tesla I think still have the mindset to learn and improve on a day to day basis, the fact that they are still taking sales from the established players in the Luxury market kind of proves that.

[rxe]

gangzoom said:

Sunday night a few weeks ago, all comfy on the sofa feeling very lazy:

Wife: 'Oh just remembered petrol light has come on in the car on Friday'
Me: 'Can you not fill it up on the way work tomorrow?'
Wife: 'Everyone does that, there will be a massive que'
Me: Say nothing
Wife: 'Can you go and fill it up tonight?'
Me: -> Waste 20 minutes of my life driving to petrol station, wait in line, fill up, drive home.

Yes I know that's what non EV drivers have to put up with regularly but compared to the 10 seconds it takes to plug in the car when I get home going to petrol stations are a massive inconvenience these days. Luckily her car is reasonably economical and now only used for commuting so I only have to do this particular chore once a month

Edited by gangzoom on Thursday 6th July 09:52

Honestly, in 28 years of car ownership, I've never had to make a special journey to get fuel. I just fill the car up when it is 1/4 full, if the petrol station has a queue, I just go to the next one. I've probably got 100 miles of range left, so it isn't a problem. If your wife can't organise this, I'd suggest you tell her to fill the thing up, she'll soon learn. Women are perfectly capable of refuelling cars, mine does it quite regularly.

The whole "you never have to visit a petrol station again" theme is solving a problem I don't have. Whereas having to stop for 30+ minutes every 200 miles or so is handing me a massive problem.

As to build quality, you only have to look at the high level brake light on an S. It looks like it has been assembled by a 5 year old using LEDs with random spacing and brightness. It must take real effort to assemble it that badly.

IMO Tesla will last 5 minutes as mainstream car makers come out with EV models. They haven't found some secret sauce for making cars, they are on a steep learning curve that Nissan, Jag and the like have conquered for decades - and losing money on every sale. Mainstream car makers will also be perfectly positioned to offer cars to people with changing needs - e.g borrow a big old diesel estate for that 1000 mile European road trip.

[covmutley]

Everyone is different. I do 20k miles a year and filling up with diesel can frequently be a pain as i live 4 miles from the nearest petrol station and my motorway commute has expensive fuel at service stations.

I get my i3 in September and am expecting the ease of home charging to be a positive. You dont charge up for 30 minutes every 200 miles, you charge it nightly.

Sure there are some long journeys where this strategy would not work, but then if you are frequently doing these journeys (most people dont) then you really need an EV as part of a 2 car household or not at all as they wont work for you yet.

[oop north]

The range thing - it really depends on your journey distance profiles - my i3 only just has enough range for me to go to Manchester and back (just under 40 miles each way) without using the Rex. I do quite a few journeys longer than that - e.g., overnight trip to chesterfield (190 miles round trip with almost nowhere to chargebon the way), occasional 320 miles in a day round trip to Cheltenham. Ignoring holiday trips that can be over 1000 miles in a week.

For a one way trip of say 110 miles with charging when I get there, I can easily either charge on the way or use the Rex. But anything else I don't have the time to wait 30-40 minutes to charge up - it increases the journey time by 50% so on a work day I take my discovery

For my next electric car, I want five seats (4 in i3 not enough to work as anything other than third car for us) and 200 miles range. At the moment it will either be a model s or a jaguar ipace. Or back to an ICE car...

[AstonZagato]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I was just thinking...the moment BMW or Merc produce an EV 7 series or S class...why would you buy a Tesla S (assuming similar pricing).

I think you might be right.

Otispunkmeyer said:

Tesla might be ahead on automation and factory set up, but the others will catch them. They have deep pockets. And when they do, the likes of the Germans have literally decades of experience in producing luxury interiors and the like. Tesla would be overshadowed less they reduce prices or improve quality.

I don't think they are at all. I saw some clickbait video along the lines of: "OMG you have to see the crazy Tesla car factory". It was a standard car factory. The BMW factory in Munich that churns out 3/4 Series looked more automated to my eyes, when I visited a few years ago. Telsa bought the 1980s Saturn factory from GM/Toyota, IIRC.

babatunde said:

Don't think even their biggest fans claim the S is perfect, my prevailing view is that the electric car is the future of mass transit, that Tesla are to be admired to trying to push that reality, and that if they continue down the path they are on they might well become the Apple of cars.

But that analogy misses a few key points. Apple wasn't the pioneer. Smart phones were well established before the iPhone. Apple made the operating system intuitive, the design cool and the concept work. Also, Apple doesn't build their phones batteries or chips. They get others to do that - noteably the Chinese to build them. They are not a phone manufacturer, they are a phone hardware designer, an operating system software house and a marketing machine.

Telsa went a different route. They could have got someone with experience like Magna Steyr to actually build the car for them and concentrated on their technology edge without getting bogged down in the minutiae of building a car.

So Tesla are at risk if the "Apple of electric cars" emerges. Someone who looks at the mistakes being made by Tesla and the old-school manufacturers and who then steps in with the solution that "simply works". That might be Google. Or even Apple themselves.

Ignoring those two potential entrants, I think Tesla's future hangs on whether they perfect the "car manufacturing bit" before the car manufacturers perfect the "electric car bit".

Heres Johnny said:

Supercharging - fastest way to charge at the moment and increasingly widespread.

AutoPilot. Audi A8 have just claimed theyre launching the first level 3 autonomous driving car, but it looks less featured than Teslas.

Solve those two, and they are solveable, and you'd have a point.

Two very good points.

However, Supercharging has been throttled a bit but is still a USP. Autopilot seems to have been set back by cutting ties with Mobileye. Also, having used it, I'm not sure it is something that is yet a major selling point other than a "Hey, watch this: it is cool" feature. I think Adaptive Cruise is 90% of what you want and the other 10% is a little scary to be honest (I found that I give cars and particularly lorries a wider berth than Autopilot does; I was cringing away from the lorry leaning towards the line markings but the Tesla sat resolutely in the centre of its lane).

Tesla have a lead but it is not insuperable.

Edited by AstonZagato on Wednesday 12th July 12:40

[covmutley]

oop north said:

The range thing - it really depends on your journey distance profiles - ..

My brother has an i3 and Audi S5 in his household. Somewhat weirdly, they take the (older 60ah) i3 on longer journeys and just use the Rex and keep filling up every 80 miles or so.

They find this cheaper than using the S5 and in reality never really have to stop more than twice for fuel on very long journeys.

[i3boy]

ntiz said:

...As company cars they are a financial no brainer it costs me £15 a month personally to own my 70D...

hi please can you explain how this is even possible? Please.

[ntiz]

For now what I think will keep Tesla well and truly ahead is the supercharger network.

As it stands today even if the other big boys such as Audi brought out a full EV right now it would be very limited for any kind of long journeys as there is no network to support it. There is Ecotricity and a few people like that but in my experience you never know if they will be working or how fast so you can get stuck.

That is the biggest barrier for the others at the moment it will take time and money to build a network. I understand that some of the companies like Ford Audi BMW Merc etc have signed an agreement to share one big network but until that starts properly I can't see anyone getting close in terms of real world usability. Even if the product it 100 times better built and developed it won't be successful until there is the network.

Although one thing I don't look forward to is the day when EVs are widespread and there aren't enough chargers in a carpark. I can see there being a lot of confrontations.

[Plug Life]

ntiz said:

Although one thing I don't look forward to is the day when EVs are widespread and there aren't enough chargers in a carpark. I can see there being a lot of confrontations.

EV drivers will tazer each other.

[hunter 66]

I have a V12.... Ferrari and 12 V ... Tesla X . The Key is the supercharger network and use a nearby one when doing the weekly grocery shop as then do not have to pay the car park fee either ....
In London ... £10 a year congestion fee and maximum 80p a day parking charge will save you about £200 a week over a daily commute in a diesel..... without taking fuel and service costs ...
Yes they are more expensive but the X is very well finished ...
Sadly the V12 gets very little use.

[Heres Johnny]

hunter 66 said:

Yes they are more expensive but the X is very well finished ...

Well, apart from all the build quality issues, the doors rubbing, the safety features removed and the fact they don't paint all of it leaving it primer coloured

[ntiz]

hunter 66 said:

I have a V12.... Ferrari and 12 V ... Tesla X . The Key is the supercharger network and use a nearby one when doing the weekly grocery shop as then do not have to pay the car park fee either ....
In London ... £10 a year congestion fee and maximum 80p a day parking charge will save you about £200 a week over a daily commute in a diesel..... without taking fuel and service costs ...
Yes they are more expensive but the X is very well finished ...
Sadly the V12 gets very little use.

I was wondering how much range do you get out of your X? I just ask as a friend had one for 2 months, him and some friends went to go cycling in France and he found he was barely getting 100 miles between charges he hit the roof especially as all of his mates got there in half the time. He had a Range Rover by the end of the week when he got back.

I'm not sure if he was exaggerating but I have heard rumours that with the big wheels they don't get that far range wise? He did also have a bike rack on the back which obviously makes a big difference.

I have forgotten to mention the biggest problem with Tesla ownership convincing the wife not to take the quiet comfortable free car to take the loud uncomfortable and extremely expensive Ferrari to the South of France instead.

[Chris-S]

Heres Johnny said:

Well, apart from all the build quality issues, the doors rubbing, the safety features removed and the fact they don't paint all of it leaving it primer coloured

That doesn't look right does it.....almost looks as if a chunk of trim got left off, rather than not painted?? I'd not expect to be seeing plastic clips poking 'in' like that on a door shut, plus all the holes.

[Heres Johnny]

Chris-S said:

Heres Johnny said:

Well, apart from all the build quality issues, the doors rubbing, the safety features removed and the fact they don't paint all of it leaving it primer coloured

That doesn't look right does it.....almost looks as if a chunk of trim got left off, rather than not painted?? I'd not expect to be seeing plastic clips poking 'in' like that on a door shut, plus all the holes.

Lots have it... here's another one.
Tesla say its meant to be like that! Either bullst or true - neither is good.

[BenjiS]

i3boy said:

ntiz said:

...As company cars they are a financial no brainer it costs me £15 a month personally to own my 70D...

hi please can you explain how this is even possible? Please.

Yeah, I don't get that either.

Even if the car is wholly owned by the company with no contribution from the OP, and the OP is in the 20% tax bracket, then the BIK should be around £1400 per year, so £115ish a month.

[mr_spock]

I'm going to guess he's including the fuel saving, maybe parking and con charge too.

[Chris-S]

Heres Johnny said:

Lots have it... here's another one.
Tesla say its meant to be like that! Either bullst or true - neither is good.

Well, that's pretty crap, innit!! Might expect that on something really budget, but not something with a price tag like an 'X'.