Electric - It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you..
Discussion
Electric cars. It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
The weak point... cells.
Unfortunately cells are not like mobile phones / wide-screen TVs / Laptops etc, they don't get twice as fast for half the price, half the weight and half the size every 2-3 years. Save for some improved chemistry they haven't truly improved for 85 years. The efficiency is still abysmal. Sorry, like any other cell they're good for 3-4 years, tops. Usually far, far less. See this yourself in your mobile. Go on tell me, how long do your mobile cells last before a charge is doing half what it did? So let me have this right, you want a car based on that?
Technical improvements my arse.
Now that die-sel in anything under three tons is getting its rightful kicking from the same taxation-system that created it, they're going to create another white-elephant, in electric.
(Rant) So when:
1) Our electric cars have three year old batteries that did 200 miles range new, but are soon sh*t for 50.
2) A new set of cells run to three times the used value of the cars they sit in.
3) They weigh a ton so don't stop.
4) The electricity cost used for 200 miles now does 50, but makes a big lump of toxic metals hot. lest we forget it still costs the same as it did to charge for 200 miles. Fine when a mobile phone battery gets old & tired, it just gets hot and you waste Milliwatts. In a car? Do you want that electricity bill?
5) With a shagged-cell to drag about (and stop) it’ll cost heaps to run.
What then?
(Rant off)
Lest we forget a need for road-pricing because the govenment feeds on fuel-duty, and it won't be getting any from electric. Our grid won't cope, it'll need beefing-up, so we'll wind-up, paying more for electricity anyway.
This whole fallacy ignores even basic school-boy physics. Electric power is an engineering fallacy put together by guardian reading morons that should have been left in a sandpit with a Tonka toy thus giving the rest of us a decent education. Clearly on them, theirs was wasted.
FFS, my 12 year old can tell you why it can't work. Worse, I understand that for something that is supposed to be green, but is far from it, you get tax-breaks to buy one?!
That Tesla thing is being sold by a snake-oil salesman, only you gotta admire his verve. It’s got comic appeal, and he seems to be getting away with it... handsomely.
For now.
It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
The weak point... cells.
Unfortunately cells are not like mobile phones / wide-screen TVs / Laptops etc, they don't get twice as fast for half the price, half the weight and half the size every 2-3 years. Save for some improved chemistry they haven't truly improved for 85 years. The efficiency is still abysmal. Sorry, like any other cell they're good for 3-4 years, tops. Usually far, far less. See this yourself in your mobile. Go on tell me, how long do your mobile cells last before a charge is doing half what it did? So let me have this right, you want a car based on that?
Technical improvements my arse.
Now that die-sel in anything under three tons is getting its rightful kicking from the same taxation-system that created it, they're going to create another white-elephant, in electric.
(Rant) So when:
1) Our electric cars have three year old batteries that did 200 miles range new, but are soon sh*t for 50.
2) A new set of cells run to three times the used value of the cars they sit in.
3) They weigh a ton so don't stop.
4) The electricity cost used for 200 miles now does 50, but makes a big lump of toxic metals hot. lest we forget it still costs the same as it did to charge for 200 miles. Fine when a mobile phone battery gets old & tired, it just gets hot and you waste Milliwatts. In a car? Do you want that electricity bill?
5) With a shagged-cell to drag about (and stop) it’ll cost heaps to run.
What then?
(Rant off)
Lest we forget a need for road-pricing because the govenment feeds on fuel-duty, and it won't be getting any from electric. Our grid won't cope, it'll need beefing-up, so we'll wind-up, paying more for electricity anyway.
This whole fallacy ignores even basic school-boy physics. Electric power is an engineering fallacy put together by guardian reading morons that should have been left in a sandpit with a Tonka toy thus giving the rest of us a decent education. Clearly on them, theirs was wasted.
FFS, my 12 year old can tell you why it can't work. Worse, I understand that for something that is supposed to be green, but is far from it, you get tax-breaks to buy one?!
That Tesla thing is being sold by a snake-oil salesman, only you gotta admire his verve. It’s got comic appeal, and he seems to be getting away with it... handsomely.
For now.
It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 13th September 11:03
Where do you get your info/data from? It's difficult to properly discuss the subject if you don't cite your sources.
Regarding battery life, watch this video which shows real data on the subject. It's just under 6 minutes long and the guy who presents it is very much into his statistics and works with real life data, not anything made up.
https://youtu.be/Gb_i4ihsJ1w
There are loads of 3-5 year old Tesla Model S out there now. I'll admit I'm not reading all the internet about them but it would be pretty well known by know if they were only getting 50 instead of 200 miles from a full charge. Again, what are your sources for that info? from 200 to 50 is a huge drop. Did you... maybe... make it up?
Edit to add:
"They weigh a ton so don't stop". Again - where did you get this info? I haven't read anything about braking or stopping issues in any EVs. Sure they can be heavy - so can ICE cars. Like ICE cars, engineers build the braking system to cope with the weight of the car. https://youtu.be/lnYSBYGyLWM?t=130 (skip to 2:10 if the link doesn't automatically take you there) This video shows a Tesla doing a full-on stop from 100km/h. It stops in 37.5 meters and 2.85 seconds. Is that bad?
Regarding battery life, watch this video which shows real data on the subject. It's just under 6 minutes long and the guy who presents it is very much into his statistics and works with real life data, not anything made up.
https://youtu.be/Gb_i4ihsJ1w
There are loads of 3-5 year old Tesla Model S out there now. I'll admit I'm not reading all the internet about them but it would be pretty well known by know if they were only getting 50 instead of 200 miles from a full charge. Again, what are your sources for that info? from 200 to 50 is a huge drop. Did you... maybe... make it up?
Edit to add:
"They weigh a ton so don't stop". Again - where did you get this info? I haven't read anything about braking or stopping issues in any EVs. Sure they can be heavy - so can ICE cars. Like ICE cars, engineers build the braking system to cope with the weight of the car. https://youtu.be/lnYSBYGyLWM?t=130 (skip to 2:10 if the link doesn't automatically take you there) This video shows a Tesla doing a full-on stop from 100km/h. It stops in 37.5 meters and 2.85 seconds. Is that bad?
Edited by LeoZwalf on Wednesday 13th September 11:13
I’m a design engineer. I work primarily on consumer white goods like washing machines. My last projects were hairdryers and toothbrushes. I’m working on a tympanic thermometer as we speak.
The technology for rechargeable cells is much the same, no matter where you look. Where did I get the figure of 50 miles from? It was rhetorical as woiuld your own figure on the run-time of your 4-5 year old mobile phone compared to how it was when new.
Yet, I think you get my point.
Now do you want me to bang on about fast-charging?
You’ll going to kill it. Fine, when it costs a tenner in your mobile, you forgive this for the convenience. Why would you what to fast-charge a cell costing £10,000?
A 4-5 year old Tesla on its 4-5 year old cells? In real world conditions, whatever its range new, if it’s doing 40% of what it did new, you’re doing very, very well indeed. It won’t be much longer before you’re down to nothing. And the bill to charge it will have increased.
That is not conjecture, you mobile will be no different, that is fact.
The technology for rechargeable cells is much the same, no matter where you look. Where did I get the figure of 50 miles from? It was rhetorical as woiuld your own figure on the run-time of your 4-5 year old mobile phone compared to how it was when new.
Yet, I think you get my point.
Now do you want me to bang on about fast-charging?
You’ll going to kill it. Fine, when it costs a tenner in your mobile, you forgive this for the convenience. Why would you what to fast-charge a cell costing £10,000?
A 4-5 year old Tesla on its 4-5 year old cells? In real world conditions, whatever its range new, if it’s doing 40% of what it did new, you’re doing very, very well indeed. It won’t be much longer before you’re down to nothing. And the bill to charge it will have increased.
That is not conjecture, you mobile will be no different, that is fact.
Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 13th September 11:35
I'm sure I don't have the same technical knowledge that you do on cells. However, I've been reading a lot about Tesla and Ampera cars to see if they would be of use. Ampera users report NO batter degradation. There are cars with over 200K miles still within spec. The design only charges to something like 80% (10KwH out of 16) so even if the battery degrades it shouldn't be noticeable to the user. Tesla, I understand, limit the amount of fast charging and will throttle charge rates at Superchargers to protect the battery.
If we then compare to a 15 year old car, how much MPG (and thus range) do we lose? My experience tells me that 10% is quite good. So, I can lose fuel storage (electric) or lose efficiency (petrol/diesel). And how much is an engine replacement? Not worth it to regain the efficiency I feel.
If we then compare to a 15 year old car, how much MPG (and thus range) do we lose? My experience tells me that 10% is quite good. So, I can lose fuel storage (electric) or lose efficiency (petrol/diesel). And how much is an engine replacement? Not worth it to regain the efficiency I feel.
My three year old electric car has had no noticeable reduction in useful range that I can see. I assume it must have lost some capacity, but I can't say it seems to have made a whole lot of difference to either what it estimates on the range gauge, or how far I go between charges.
I think the only part of your post I'm going to rely on as being accurate is your username. Could we talk to the 12 year old instead, please?
I think the only part of your post I'm going to rely on as being accurate is your username. Could we talk to the 12 year old instead, please?
Cells are far, far cheaper than what the vehicle manufacturers charge. And they can be replaced (by a competent and trained electrician) with minimal fuss/cost.
AFAIK li-ion cell recycling isn't great at the moment, as it's cheaper to mine the materials than extract it from recycling, but hopefully they'll be recycled better in the future.
As electric cars get more popular, you'll see garages specialising in battery/electrical services.
AFAIK li-ion cell recycling isn't great at the moment, as it's cheaper to mine the materials than extract it from recycling, but hopefully they'll be recycled better in the future.
As electric cars get more popular, you'll see garages specialising in battery/electrical services.
Also be aware that "Li-Ion" doesn't mean the same thing across the board. The chemistry of batteries in mobiles and laptops is not necessarily the same as in a rechargeable drill, or a computer UPS system, or in an electric car. I think Tesla batteries are different to the chemistry other car manufacturers use, also.
mr_spock said:
I'm sure I don't have the same technical knowledge that you do on cells. However, I've been reading a lot about Tesla and Ampera cars to see if they would be of use. Ampera users report NO batter degradation. There are cars with over 200K miles still within spec. The design only charges to something like 80% (10KwH out of 16) so even if the battery degrades it shouldn't be noticeable to the user. Tesla, I understand, limit the amount of fast charging and will throttle charge rates at Superchargers to protect the battery.
If we then compare to a 15 year old car, how much MPG (and thus range) do we lose? My experience tells me that 10% is quite good. So, I can lose fuel storage (electric) or lose efficiency (petrol/diesel). And how much is an engine replacement? Not worth it to regain the efficiency I feel.
Tesla limit the amount of the battery that can be used both "to empty" and "to full" The car monitors and allows a certain amount of extra use of these "buffers" so no massive decrease in battery charge is noticed.If we then compare to a 15 year old car, how much MPG (and thus range) do we lose? My experience tells me that 10% is quite good. So, I can lose fuel storage (electric) or lose efficiency (petrol/diesel). And how much is an engine replacement? Not worth it to regain the efficiency I feel.
In effect, they chuck a 50% bigger battery on so when 50% of it degrades you still feel like its charging to 100%
OldDuffer said:
I’m a design engineer.
I think i'd rather a 12yo design things than you, what with that absolute load of fact-less drivel you spouted in your OP!1) Cells haven't changed in 85 years: WRONG (they have changed beyond all recognition, and are now capable of energy and power density many times what they used to be)
2) Cells wear out in a short time: WRONG (when properly managed and used, modern multicell battery packs have proven to be longer lasting first thought. There are plenty of Teslas and LEAFs running around with hundreds of thousands of miles on them without significant reduction in capacity (and BTW, the powertrain of your ICE also "degrades" over time, which is why your 150k mile derv is worth just £2.37 even if it is still running fine)
3) Cells haven't got any cheaper. WRONG. The cost of cells and indeed entire batteries has tumbled, and continues to tumble as mass production achieves ever greater economies of scale.
4) Heavy cars can't stop. WRONG. A clear failure to understand the basic concept of friction. Assuming they have big enough brakes (which all modern cars do) stopping distance is largely independent of mass, and in fact, big heavy cars have big tyres, which often mean they stop in a shorter distance!
5) When you knacker your battery your car is un-usable. WRONG the parallel architecture in EV batteries means that the battery can continue to function with a certain number of cell failures. And the modular nature of that battery means that modules can be easily replaced, and then those modules can be refurbished by simply replacing the failed cell, rather than throwing everything away and starting again.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 13th September 13:11
OldDuffer said:
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
NO IT ISN'T.a CNG drivetrain is monodirectional, meaning it can NEVER achieve the same consumption of energy as an EV (which recovers KE from it's mass). CNG is also a finite resource, and comes with a significant carbon footprint. Burning it in small (distributed) locations (ie in a car) means it's very hard to implement any carbon or waste heat capture / recuperation. It would be better, if you have to burn CNG, to do it on a large scale (high thermal efficiency) in a power station, with carbon capture of the exhaust gases, and using the low level waste heat for local domestic and business heating.
Perhaps the OP should stop listening to the opinions of 12 year olds.
Every single point you made about battery cells and their degradation is invalid, which is quite a feat for someone trying to assert themself as an intelligent design engineer. I suspect you don't have any interaction with batteries whatsoever in your job, evident in your lack of knowledge.
Every single point you made about battery cells and their degradation is invalid, which is quite a feat for someone trying to assert themself as an intelligent design engineer. I suspect you don't have any interaction with batteries whatsoever in your job, evident in your lack of knowledge.
OldDuffer said:
I’m a design engineer. I work primarily on consumer white goods like washing machines. My last projects were hairdryers and toothbrushes.
You work with electrical house hold goods and all of a sudden you think you know more about eletrical engineering than a guy who runs a company that has landed a rocket booster stage after launch and apart from Russia operates the only launch platform that can dock with the ISS??So before you start ranting about battery cell life in EVs maybe do some research into the subject before hand?
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250...
Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 13th September 13:42
Bit of a weird thread 
Anyway beauty of the internet is you can tell him he's got it all wrong - https://twitter.com/elonmusk
Anyway beauty of the internet is you can tell him he's got it all wrong - https://twitter.com/elonmusk
OldDuffer said:
The technology for rechargeable cells is much the same, no matter where you look.
<nods>Tesla use the exact same 18650 format cells in the S and X as every other electric car, toothbrush, eCig, laptop etc.
They're starting newer cells - 2170 - in the 3, but no plans to roll them over. 50% bigger volume, 200% the power.
TooMany2cvs said:
<nods>
Tesla use the exact same 18650 format cells in the S and X as every other electric car, toothbrush, eCig, laptop etc.
They're starting newer cells - 2170 - in the 3, but no plans to roll them over. 50% bigger volume, 200% the power.
But the 18650 cell designation is the form factor etc of it, it doesn't tell you what the internal chemistry is or even capacity?Tesla use the exact same 18650 format cells in the S and X as every other electric car, toothbrush, eCig, laptop etc.
They're starting newer cells - 2170 - in the 3, but no plans to roll them over. 50% bigger volume, 200% the power.
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