Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
Well people are happy to pay it because Tesla delivered the Roadster, the modelS, the modelX and now the 3. Outside of Tesla you have rockets launching cars in to space, landing rockets, installing giant solar power plants and backup batteries etc. etc.
So they have a track history of delivering.
So they have a track history of delivering.
Heres Johnny said:
If only he had solved the supply chain. They ran out of 12v batteries the other week and its a common failure component..
12V batteries are a common failure on all EVs because they are trying to use batteries from ICE cars that have a completely different usage scenario. You see it on Leafs, Zoe's and Amperas.I was referring to them manufacturing their own Li batteries because they global production can't keep up with the demand required.
Evanivitch said:
LarsG said:
Ok, so you buy a Tesla, you put up with less than perfect quality control. 5 years down the line when every manufacturer is producing cars with a similar or better specification you go to trade it in..... how much will it be worth?
As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.
A 2014 Tesla Model S is still £34k second hand.As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.
It was £50k brand new.
I can get a 2014 7 Series for sub £20k.
That's an expensive Trabant.
They won't be such a good bargain after they are 4 years old and out of warranty. New battery pack £12,000?
While the battery is covered for 8 years it still does not cover normal degradation so expect 150-170 mile range and that's being optimistic.
So how many people on here drive a car older than 7 years? Would you be prepared to put a £12,000 new battery in a 7-8 year old car.
But that's not the point.
The warranty work on the cars is losing the company money hand over fist.
Tesla are not mass producing cars in the real sense, they are only staying afloat because the money from pre orders and some investment is paying off debt interest while the debt becomes bigger.
All the while the major manufacturers are beginning to catch up and will be producing cheaper cars with similar spec. The slice of the EV cake will get smaller for Tesla.
There will be a tipping point and when it happens and it will unless Tesla start producing 200,000+ cars a year and quickly. This is doubtful and the Model 3 production is a disaster.
There will come a point very shortly when people will be fed up with Elon Musks hype.
Tesla need to produce lots of cars, debt is growing and they can barely service the debt interest.
I'd hold off buying one for two years, if they are still around then maybe but there will be good alternatives by then.
LarsG said:
Musk hypes up the gigafactory and so called "innovation" when it's a hitachi bog standard battery they produce.
If you have no idea what your on about you really shouldn't keep on posting rubbish. But luckily the internet if full of people who rant on about things they have no idea what they are talking about, so your lack of knowledge is pretty par by internet standards. I would suggest you start your own EV company by using a 'hitachi bog standard battery' as the base for the battery pack......good luck that's all I'll say
gangzoom said:
LarsG said:
Musk hypes up the gigafactory and so called "innovation" when it's a hitachi bog standard battery they produce.
If you have no idea what your on about you really shouldn't keep on posting rubbish. But luckily the internet if full of people who rant on about things they have no idea what they are talking about, so your lack of knowledge is pretty par by internet standards. I would suggest you start your own EV company by using a 'hitachi bog standard battery' as the base for the battery pack......good luck that's all I'll say
LarsG said:
Evanivitch said:
LarsG said:
Ok, so you buy a Tesla, you put up with less than perfect quality control. 5 years down the line when every manufacturer is producing cars with a similar or better specification you go to trade it in..... how much will it be worth?
As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.
A 2014 Tesla Model S is still £34k second hand.As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.
It was £50k brand new.
I can get a 2014 7 Series for sub £20k.
That's an expensive Trabant.
They won't be such a good bargain after they are 4 years old and out of warranty. New battery pack £12,000?
While the battery is covered for 8 years it still does not cover normal degradation so expect 150-170 mile range and that's being optimistic.
So how many people on here drive a car older than 7 years? Would you be prepared to put a £12,000 new battery in a 7-8 year old car.
But that's not the point.
The warranty work on the cars is losing the company money hand over fist.
Tesla are not mass producing cars in the real sense, they are only staying afloat because the money from pre orders and some investment is paying off debt interest while the debt becomes bigger.
All the while the major manufacturers are beginning to catch up and will be producing cheaper cars with similar spec. The slice of the EV cake will get smaller for Tesla.
There will be a tipping point and when it happens and it will unless Tesla start producing 200,000+ cars a year and quickly. This is doubtful and the Model 3 production is a disaster.
There will come a point very shortly when people will be fed up with Elon Musks hype.
Tesla need to produce lots of cars, debt is growing and they can barely service the debt interest.
I'd hold off buying one for two years, if they are still around then maybe but there will be good alternatives by then.
ks then choose something that doesn't have empirical evidence.Then again you can't even get the battery manufacturer right and that's also well known!
LarsG said:
They won't be such a good bargain after they are 4 years old and out of warranty. New battery pack £12,000?
While the battery is covered for 8 years it still does not cover normal degradation so expect 150-170 mile range and that's being optimistic.
So how many people on here drive a car older than 7 years? Would you be prepared to put a £12,000 new battery in a 7-8 year old car.
Stop posting incorrect information like it is fact. You're completely wrong on all counts, and there's plenty of evidence to support that.While the battery is covered for 8 years it still does not cover normal degradation so expect 150-170 mile range and that's being optimistic.
So how many people on here drive a car older than 7 years? Would you be prepared to put a £12,000 new battery in a 7-8 year old car.
How does a battery that's lost 10% (as little as 18 miles or as much as 30) over 150,000 become scrap value? A car that would have to be doing 35,000+ miles to make that.
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degra...
The Nissan Leaf has had battery degradation issues but it does not have thermal battery management, has a small battery which requires a full charge-discharge cycle and is even earlier tech. Many people could use 24kWh a day but few would use 60kWh.
This car did 200,000 miles with full battery charge daily (to 100%, above the recommended 80% for normal usage) and had 6% loss. 18 miles in real world.
Tesla claim software forced a battery pack change (which I'm suitably sceptical about) but it doesn't hide the fact the chemistry was still in good working order after hard use.
https://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-happens-when-you...
Mr2Mike said:
Good stuff. Out of Ready Salted and Cheese and Onion I always go for Cheese and Onion.
Where do you stand on not delivering against massive debt vs fiscal competence?
Err....Where do you stand on not delivering against massive debt vs fiscal competence?
Forbes said:
That will surprise GM shareholders who have suffered from a seemingly unstoppable tsunami of red-ink. Opel-Vauxhall has lost almost $20 billion this century, while constantly promising to return to the black next year. This was always justified by excuses like GM needs the small car expertise and technology edge that German-based Opel provided.
How successful would you rate GM Europe?Evanivitch said:
What's the gold-standard business model that everyone is comparing them to? When did GM Europe make a profit? How much did the US Big 3 get from government? How much indirect support do existing manufacturers get from government?
Although the Americans are doing well with car sales in China, and China is now dropping car import taxes further because of Trump. Tesla on the other hand 'has been in discussions' with the chinese government for years about a local factory but no joy yet.Edited by hyphen on Saturday 26th May 21:57
LarsG said:
Ok, so you buy a Tesla, you put up with less than perfect quality control. 5 years down the line when every manufacturer is producing cars with a similar or better specification you go to trade it in..... how much will it be worth?
As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.
This is very much the reason I haven't bought one. When the Chinese flood the market with better cars in several years time (like they have just started doing with mobile phones) then everything is an unknown. The Chinese government have made it their aim to ensure their country succeeds on a global level at the change in the auto industry that is just around the corner. They also have a habit of delivering their promises to the people.As much as a 1980 Trabant probably.
Another thing is all things are extremely quiet out of Japan, especially Toyota. I wonder if they will come out with something outstanding or fall by the wayside like Nokia did.
jamoor said:
This is very much the reason I haven't bought one. When the Chinese flood the market with better cars in several years time (like they have just started doing with mobile phones) then everything is an unknown. The Chinese government have made it their aim to ensure their country succeeds on a global level at the change in the auto industry that is just around the corner. They also have a habit of delivering their promises to the people.
Another thing is all things are extremely quiet out of Japan, especially Toyota. I wonder if they will come out with something outstanding or fall by the wayside like Nokia did.
The Chinese have failed to take over the automotive world up to now, not sure why you think EVs will be different. Then add on the lack of european infrastructure, both servicing and charging. I was more worried that the price would plummet too but 3 years on and I think the car I had as a company car is still pretty relevant. The technology isn't actually zooming ahead, ts just more are starting to adopt it. Another thing is all things are extremely quiet out of Japan, especially Toyota. I wonder if they will come out with something outstanding or fall by the wayside like Nokia did.
Japan are also largely into chargerless hybrids like the current Lexus cars and hydrogen. Even when they do come in their market segment is unlikely to pose any real challenge as again, they've only had limited success in past in certain categories. They could easily smash the market for the over 70 year olds with an electric Jazz, but then its already their market.
Never say never but the thing that Tesla has grabbed, irrespective of the quality of their product, is the market attention and a following - how many commenting on here comment on every other company and fuel type? Surely Ford must be bricking themselves when the Chinese launch a low cost little run around? Sure Mercedes must be bringing themselves when Lexus bring out the new LS? But nobody really talks about that, so why here?
Heres Johnny said:
The Chinese have failed to take over the automotive world up to now, not sure why you think EVs will be different.
China has been very good at copying things in the last but you can't export something that has patent violations.However, EV tech is a new dawn so there's less of a patent minefield to negotiate and they're on a more even pegging to the rest of the global industry.
That said, I don't believe they will dominate the market (their domestic market is very different to the global markets they would export to. Just use American exports as an example) and it certainly won't affect the residual value of Tesla.
To say you didn't buy a Tesla because it might depreciate is hilarious when we know big BMWs and the such depreciate like bricks in water.
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