Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
jamoor said:
Tuna said:
If a 'huge reliable and fast charging network' was the most important differentiator, then people would buy cars with the hugest, most reliable, fast charging network possible surely?
...
Like... petrol stations.
I'm pretty sure I read in a news article that there are more charging stations that petrol stations in the UK?...
Like... petrol stations.
SWoll said:
Yes, but petrol stations have 6+ pumps in most cases so a rather disingenuous I thought. Also not all of those chargers will be fast or accessible to everyone so of limited use?
And then alot of people can charge at home, I'm pretty sure using that statistic there are far more places to refuel an electric car than a petrol car.jamoor said:
T-195 said:
Yes. And you can't carry around a spare can of batteries in the boot for if you do ever run out.
Petrol does seem a bit silly though.You spend a fortune on the fuel and 60% of the energy is wasted. To the rational person it seems foolish.
It is around 30/40p a litre cheaper than it was just a few years ago.
SWoll said:
The problem is when you actually look at requirements they are very rarely what people suggest they are. "I must have a car that has a 500 mile range" say many. Rarely any justification for it, often just a case of that is what they are used to and are looking for a reason not to change.
Have a look at the cost of competitors to the Tesla Model 3 with similar spec and performance and you'll find the purchase/lease costs are the same or more expensive for the ICE vehicle in most cases, particularly the Performance model. Then work out how much you'll save on fuel and maintenance costs over 3 years/30k miles and tell me who is throwing money around..
Your travelling salesman is the most extreme example you can come up with, and I guarantee many of them could still run an EV with some minor changes to how they plan their journeys. How many people out there are really doing more than 250 miles per day every day of the working week and have no ability to pull over for 30 minutes for a pee and a cup of coffee whilst they top up?
That’s rather the point. There are enormous numbers of households that could make an EV work perfectly well without any need for special remote charging networks having to be built today. Over the next ten years as more EVs hit the road then the remote charging network is going to naturally expand. It will expand based on the economic reward for installing them, just as is happening now but at a larger pace. Have a look at the cost of competitors to the Tesla Model 3 with similar spec and performance and you'll find the purchase/lease costs are the same or more expensive for the ICE vehicle in most cases, particularly the Performance model. Then work out how much you'll save on fuel and maintenance costs over 3 years/30k miles and tell me who is throwing money around..
Your travelling salesman is the most extreme example you can come up with, and I guarantee many of them could still run an EV with some minor changes to how they plan their journeys. How many people out there are really doing more than 250 miles per day every day of the working week and have no ability to pull over for 30 minutes for a pee and a cup of coffee whilst they top up?
Edited by SWoll on Monday 19th August 13:29
But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous. There are clearly other reasons as to why EVs are growing market share so slowly and only where there are massive tax incentives.
DonkeyApple said:
That’s rather the point. There are enormous numbers of households that could make an EV work perfectly well without any need for special remote charging networks having to be built today. Over the next ten years as more EVs hit the road then the remote charging network is going to naturally expand. It will expand based on the economic reward for installing them, just as is happening now but at a larger pace.
But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous. There are clearly other reasons as to why EVs are growing market share so slowly and only where there are massive tax incentives.
The main reason has to be cost. There are millions of cars on the road with values of just a few thousand pounds. Not many EV at that level yet. But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous. There are clearly other reasons as to why EVs are growing market share so slowly and only where there are massive tax incentives.
And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
DonkeyApple said:
That’s rather the point. There are enormous numbers of households that could make an EV work perfectly well without any need for special remote charging networks having to be built today. Over the next ten years as more EVs hit the road then the remote charging network is going to naturally expand. It will expand based on the economic reward for installing them, just as is happening now but at a larger pace.
But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous. There are clearly other reasons as to why EVs are growing market share so slowly and only where there are massive tax incentives.
Yep, a lack of understanding of the technology (some of the questions I've been asked boggle the mind), fear of change (as can be seen in these forums very clearly), no real used market as of yet and only a small selection of EV's available.But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous. There are clearly other reasons as to why EVs are growing market share so slowly and only where there are massive tax incentives.
Still very much in its infancy, once the big boys throw their hats into the ring over the next few years I'd expect massive growth as from a usability perspective I'm totally sold on EV which I didn't expect to be 6 months ago.
jamoor said:
My point still stands.. 60% is wasted!
My calculations can't be correct surely?http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm
85 kilowatt hour = 1.933 806 046 5 gallon [UK] of automotive gasoline
Does this mean that an Model S 85 stores the equivalent of 10ish litres of "petrol" when fully charged?
That's insane!
SWoll said:
Yep, a lack of understanding of the technology (some of the questions I've been asked boggle the mind), fear of change (as can be seen in these forums very clearly), no real used market as of yet and only a small selection of EV's available.
Still very much in its infancy, once the big boys throw their hats into the ring over the next few years I'd expect massive growth as from a usability perspective I'm totally sold on EV which I didn't expect to be 6 months ago.
The 0% BIK will be the tipping point in the UK.Still very much in its infancy, once the big boys throw their hats into the ring over the next few years I'd expect massive growth as from a usability perspective I'm totally sold on EV which I didn't expect to be 6 months ago.
Once you dangle the carrot that a company car drivers tax liability will go from £1300 to 0 people will jump at the chance.
jamoor said:
SWoll said:
Yep, a lack of understanding of the technology (some of the questions I've been asked boggle the mind), fear of change (as can be seen in these forums very clearly), no real used market as of yet and only a small selection of EV's available.
Still very much in its infancy, once the big boys throw their hats into the ring over the next few years I'd expect massive growth as from a usability perspective I'm totally sold on EV which I didn't expect to be 6 months ago.
The 0% BIK will be the tipping point in the UK.Still very much in its infancy, once the big boys throw their hats into the ring over the next few years I'd expect massive growth as from a usability perspective I'm totally sold on EV which I didn't expect to be 6 months ago.
Once you dangle the carrot that a company car drivers tax liability will go from £1300 to 0 people will jump at the chance.
SWoll said:
Still very little choice though and people unconvinced about the technology. Will be interesting to see.
People only need to be convinced if its their own money.When someone else is footing the bill and you tell them that you can fill this car up for under a tenner, pay 0% in tax, that's all they need to hear.
REALIST123 said:
The main reason has to be cost. There are millions of cars on the road with values of just a few thousand pounds. Not many EV at that level yet.
And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
Depends a lot on what car you compare with what car I guess. And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
My last pre Tesla car was a BMW 6 series gran coupe. I bought a fully loaded ex press car, list was something like 75k inc options, 3k miles on the clock and I got it for 52k. Sold it 3 years later for 25k with 70k miles on the clock. £27k depr plus 67k/40mpg*£5 = £8k of fuel - about £35k over the 3 years = shade under £1k a month albeit I racked up some serious miles
My MS, used sale at less than 1 year old, 110k list, 77k paid (the P100D and the promise of FSD came out knocking its value, little did they know) and its now worth maybe 60k thanks to Tesla slashing the P model prices, running costs to date have been maybe £50 of electricity (excluding consumables etc in a similar way to I ignored them on the 6) Thats £17k in 23 months, about £750 a month (relatively low mileage but the expensive end of the depreciation curve)
I'd say they weren't that far apart taking into account mileage
If I'd compared it to a M5 the Tesla would have walked the man maths, if I'd compared it to a 530d the BMW would have won. Depends what you compare it to. We can all probably drive cheaper cars if we want to compromise on something.
jamoor said:
My calculations can't be correct surely?
http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm
85 kilowatt hour = 1.933 806 046 5 gallon [UK] of automotive gasoline
Does this mean that an Model S 85 stores the equivalent of 10ish litres of "petrol" when fully charged?
That's insane!
But that shows how efficient it is. Compare the range a BMW M3 gets from that to a Tesla3.http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm
85 kilowatt hour = 1.933 806 046 5 gallon [UK] of automotive gasoline
Does this mean that an Model S 85 stores the equivalent of 10ish litres of "petrol" when fully charged?
That's insane!
DonkeyApple said:
But the random claim that EVs aren’t being adopted because there isn’t a massive, national charging network is just erroneous.
Not in my case. I had a Leaf and an I3 REX for over two years. Because of the charging networks and hoops to jump through and reliability and ICE'ing and a myriad of other problems. I am back in an ICE until the charging networks are as good as the petrol stations. Which is slowly coming - BP have already installed a pair of 150 kW chargers at one of their stations. There are other networks installing as well playing catch up. Great cars and cheaper overall cost of ownership.HalcyonRichard said:
Not in my case. I had a Leaf and an I3 REX for over two years. Because of the charging networks and hoops to jump through and reliability and ICE'ing and a myriad of other problems. I am back in an ICE until the charging networks are as good as the petrol stations. Which is slowly coming - BP have already installed a pair of 150 kW chargers at one of their stations. There are other networks installing as well playing catch up. Great cars and cheaper overall cost of ownership.
I think this is the issue tesla sought to address.jamoor said:
I'm pretty sure I read in a news article that there are more charging stations that petrol stations in the UK?
Well if they count 1 charger as equivalent to 1 petrol station that's probably accurate. Might be misslading, of course because the fairer comparison would be petrol pumps vs charger, but i think it's fair to say that the reporting of EV vs petrol seems to be very polarized and so both sides of the arguement have been reporting very silly stats for years now!Sambucket said:
hyphen said:
Breaking news, Tesla X spotted in London just now, by me, without a crowd of admirers.
I thought this was a rare event based on what I've heard on here, so have taken a pic.
You can see that fella on the left walking past without noticing it
You spend a lot of time thinking about Teslas for someone who claims to be disinterested in owning one. I thought this was a rare event based on what I've heard on here, so have taken a pic.
You can see that fella on the left walking past without noticing it
Lady doth protest too much methinks. Can't afford one? Annoyed that your German car isn't far from cool these days?
Love and hate are close bedfellows. Indifference would be the classy response. But it's more than that, isn't it?
Hyphen,
Rent one for a day. Drive it somewhere where there are loads of millennials. Park it, pop open the falcon doors and tell me that you don't get a reaction.
I actually think it is a downside of the car. People notice and comment on it. I'd prefer if they didn't, to be honest.
I find people's reactions to it quite interesting. The positive demographic are young people and women. The most anti are middle aged men.
hyphen said:
Breaking news, Tesla X spotted in London just now, by me, without a crowd of admirers.
I thought this was a rare event based on what I've heard on here, so have taken a pic.
You can see that fella on the left walking past without noticing it
Are we supposed to notice them?I thought this was a rare event based on what I've heard on here, so have taken a pic.
You can see that fella on the left walking past without noticing it
I probably see ten a day. They are just a car nothing special certainly not now.
Heres Johnny said:
REALIST123 said:
The main reason has to be cost. There are millions of cars on the road with values of just a few thousand pounds. Not many EV at that level yet.
And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
Depends a lot on what car you compare with what car I guess. And despite what others say, I have never been able to make the maths add up for one of the very highly priced EVs. I’d happily be corrected on that but every calculation I’ve seen makes assumptions that don’t seem to hold water, IMO.
Rates of depreciation, vehicle comparisons, annual fuel and maintenance savings etc always seem to be spun to support the case, using typical man maths.
My last pre Tesla car was a BMW 6 series gran coupe. I bought a fully loaded ex press car, list was something like 75k inc options, 3k miles on the clock and I got it for 52k. Sold it 3 years later for 25k with 70k miles on the clock. £27k depr plus 67k/40mpg*£5 = £8k of fuel - about £35k over the 3 years = shade under £1k a month albeit I racked up some serious miles
My MS, used sale at less than 1 year old, 110k list, 77k paid (the P100D and the promise of FSD came out knocking its value, little did they know) and its now worth maybe 60k thanks to Tesla slashing the P model prices, running costs to date have been maybe £50 of electricity (excluding consumables etc in a similar way to I ignored them on the 6) Thats £17k in 23 months, about £750 a month (relatively low mileage but the expensive end of the depreciation curve)
I'd say they weren't that far apart taking into account mileage
If I'd compared it to a M5 the Tesla would have walked the man maths, if I'd compared it to a 530d the BMW would have won. Depends what you compare it to. We can all probably drive cheaper cars if we want to compromise on something.
I quite agree with your final comments. I would also suggest that a 530d would be a good comparison for a MS, by any relevant measure.
When I considered, for a short while, getting a MD and having a short drive in one, I had a quite highly specced 530d.
My calculations back then (2017) were that I could buy a similar 5 series, run it for 4 years and give it away for what a MS would cost, though I assumed depreciation of a similar % on both, something I can’t be sure of.
At my mileage, fuel was about £1500 a year, servicing was included in the purchase price of the BMW and I had no mechanical issues in the 4th year.
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