Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
hyphen said:
Advertising works, its why Google and Facebook are as big as they are.
Yes but... I built a business by being the first to advertise in my area on Google. Cost me £40 a month in ads, brought me £10-15k a month in sales. Hurrah. Then everyone else piled in; soon I was paying £1k a month in ads to make £2k of sales. So I stopped advertising on Google.My competitors are still advertising on Google many years later. The numbers don't make sense for them. Why still do it? Fear. Specifically, fear of missing out (FOMO), a most powerful emotion.
As the old saying goes, "in a gold rush, the only man guaranteed to make money is the man selling shovels." Google are selling shovels to those who hope for riches (but most don't get there).
Related to another business I'm involved in, one of Japan's largest chocolate businesses launched a new class of product a couple of years ago. It was double the average price of a bar, yet they shifted 30m units in year 1 (domestic market only - a good launch would be 10m units) and spent almost nothing on advertising. Instead, they concentrated on making sure their product and packaging were "Instaworthy" and, yes, JP Instragram went nuts for the product.
If your customers and fans will promote your product for you, that's what you do. Tesla have done it. Those Apple ads you mentioned? Years ago, a very different time.
And, just as importantly, advertising cars just makes you look like another car company, something Tesla are very keen to avoid.
Will that last forever? Of course not; there will come a point where Tesla feels it needs to promote (but not necessarily advertise) its products. But that time is not necessarily now.
ntiz said:
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Really? Are you sure that you’re just not meeting an abnormally high number of monumentally thick people? The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
. Do you work for a Government dept? 
ntiz said:
It’s going to be interesting to see if people miss the buying experience that you get off buying a high end car at a dealership.
Personally, I could not care less. Only bought a couple of cars new, but always via a broker. There's not much of an experience doing it that way, but the process is reliable and the price paid for the car is good. I quite like Tesla's simple price list and streamlined order process. No objection here. What I would miss is working after sales service. Currently looking after a Smart, a Fiat, a Renault and a VW. There are a couple of niggles every once in a while (e.g. explaining to the local Fiat dealership what engine oil they need to put in the then brand new Twinair engine), but all things considered everything works as it should. There's a solution for problems and no one (friends & family) was left without working transportation for more than a couple of hours -- in decades. Tesla Germany can't deliver this at the moment. Simple stuff like getting a wind shield replaced after a stone chip big enough for the TÜV guys to complain (happens all of the time)....
Going back to the sales process, another big difference is the way list (=purchase) prices are set. Car buying customers are used to somewhat inflated list prices minus a discount depending on how well you haggle or how little "buying experience" you are happy to pay for.
What they are not used to is 0 discount combined with dynamic list/sales price evolution. This is were Tesla's transparency (=! predictability) bites the customer. Case in point, Tesla Germany started to roll out the model 3 in earnest round April this year. Prices have been stable until the end of Q2. Tesla then waited _just_ the required amount of time to drop prices for Q3 so that the Q2 buyers could not return their cars any more.
It's only a couple €k for most (LR AWD and SR+ customers), but the biggest losers are also the biggest fans. If you bought a German model 3 performance in April 19 for €64k, the same is now €55k or €9k less. Specced with the then expensive white colour option (now standard), the loss is €11k.
Really happy that I didn't buy one in April. I think I'll pull the trigger when the 'performance' is down to the price they currently charge for a SR+ (€45k). Can't be long...
skwdenyer said:
Yes but... I built a business by being the first to advertise in my area on Google. Cost me £40 a month in ads, brought me £10-15k a month in sales. Hurrah. Then everyone else piled in; soon I was paying £1k a month in ads to make £2k of sales. So I stopped advertising on Google.
....
Dyson were the first with bagless cyclone thingy. Everyone else piled in, but Dyson remains the brand most associated with in people minds and kept moving forward e.g.they did the ball thing, and now their cordless is the default choice for most consumers- I just bought a second one at £400 ish!....
By the time everyone piled in, you should have moved on to the next level, not to mention built up a huge database of customers to direct market whilst no GDPR was around
Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 21st August 23:30
DonkeyApple said:
ntiz said:
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Really? Are you sure that you’re just not meeting an abnormally high number of monumentally thick people? The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
. Do you work for a Government dept? In all seriousness most of my customers are shocked when I turn up in Italy in a Tesla. Petrolheads know about the supercharging network most don’t really know how it all works or care. Until it affects there buying decision.
ntiz said:
DonkeyApple said:
ntiz said:
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Really? Are you sure that you’re just not meeting an abnormally high number of monumentally thick people? The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
. Do you work for a Government dept? In all seriousness most of my customers are shocked when I turn up in Italy in a Tesla. Petrolheads know about the supercharging network most don’t really know how it all works or care. Until it affects there buying decision.
Fuel is about 1/4 of the equivalent ICE, 2-4p a mile v 8-16p - that’s not free
I assume you’re ignoring depreciation or lease costs, but other costs transfer like tyres, VED, nearly all parking, servicing (yes, some IS still recommended and the price for 1 hepa filter in my MS buys you a 5 year service pack at BMW) etc
ntiz said:
DonkeyApple said:
ntiz said:
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Really? Are you sure that you’re just not meeting an abnormally high number of monumentally thick people? The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
. Do you work for a Government dept? In all seriousness most of my customers are shocked when I turn up in Italy in a Tesla. Petrolheads know about the supercharging network most don’t really know how it all works or care. Until it affects there buying decision.
hyphen said:
Dyson were the first with bagless cyclone thingy. Everyone else piled in, but Dyson remains the brand most associated with in people minds and kept moving forward e.g.they did the ball thing, and now their cordless is the default choice for most consumers- I just bought a second one at £400 ish!
By the time everyone piled in, you should have moved on to the next level, not to mention built up a huge database of customers to direct market whilst no GDPR was around
I should have, you’re right. So I did and expanded massively riding a wave of brand awareness and word of mouthBy the time everyone piled in, you should have moved on to the next level, not to mention built up a huge database of customers to direct market whilst no GDPR was around
Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 21st August 23:30
Not at Dyson level, mind you.Heres Johnny said:
I’m curious to know why you think they’re basically free to run.
Fuel is about 1/4 of the equivalent ICE, 2-4p a mile v 8-16p - that’s not free
I assume you’re ignoring depreciation or lease costs, but other costs transfer like tyres, VED, nearly all parking, servicing (yes, some IS still recommended and the price for 1 hepa filter in my MS buys you a 5 year service pack at BMW) etc
But, but it’s fwree don’t you know. Completely free, don’t even have to pay for the car or anything Fuel is about 1/4 of the equivalent ICE, 2-4p a mile v 8-16p - that’s not free
I assume you’re ignoring depreciation or lease costs, but other costs transfer like tyres, VED, nearly all parking, servicing (yes, some IS still recommended and the price for 1 hepa filter in my MS buys you a 5 year service pack at BMW) etc
There have been some stupid comments on this thread but claiming driving a Tesla is free is one of the best. Musk came a close 2nd claiming Model 3s would appreciate to stupendous prices as they’ll be out all day driving people around by themselves.
Tesla is sadly becoming a brand associated with complete fantasists. Shame really as they’ve created some decent cars.
ntiz said:
DonkeyApple said:
ntiz said:
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Really? Are you sure that you’re just not meeting an abnormally high number of monumentally thick people? The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
. Do you work for a Government dept? In all seriousness most of my customers are shocked when I turn up in Italy in a Tesla. Petrolheads know about the supercharging network most don’t really know how it all works or care. Until it affects there buying decision.
) the general public lack of knowledge and understanding regarding Hybrids and EV's is massive.jjwilde said:
The fuel is free if you've got the free supercharging.
Also although people here are claiming the supercharging network isn't the reason people buy Teslas the latest survey on EVs puts the charging network as the 3rd most important thing when looking at an EV (after range & price).
It's not really free supercharging as you pay for the car.Also although people here are claiming the supercharging network isn't the reason people buy Teslas the latest survey on EVs puts the charging network as the 3rd most important thing when looking at an EV (after range & price).
Well in the UK you pay around 15-17pence per mile on a similar car
The Tesla is 6pence worst case scenario.
3pence of you charge at home
Or 2 pence if you have some sort of economy tarriff. (Octopus quoted me 5p/kWh) which takes it down to 1.5ppm
2ppm is basically free in my books.
WestyCarl said:
ntiz said:
DonkeyApple said:
ntiz said:
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Really? Are you sure that you’re just not meeting an abnormally high number of monumentally thick people? The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
. Do you work for a Government dept? In all seriousness most of my customers are shocked when I turn up in Italy in a Tesla. Petrolheads know about the supercharging network most don’t really know how it all works or care. Until it affects there buying decision.
) the general public lack of knowledge and understanding regarding Hybrids and EV's is massive.Surely the vast majority of EVs will be a damn site cheaper to run than any Tesla. The cars aren't free.
The real question is whether other EV firms will find the need to get their investors to finance free electricity in order to incentivise the selling of cars?
The answer is that they won’t and the free electricity at the moment is not a long term service.
The other real question is where will non domestic charging costs end up being in a few years time as they will need to be commercially viable. Either subsidised by car park owners who benefit from attracting EV consumers to their shops or being charged at a rate that allows the charger to pay for itself.
So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
The answer is that they won’t and the free electricity at the moment is not a long term service.
The other real question is where will non domestic charging costs end up being in a few years time as they will need to be commercially viable. Either subsidised by car park owners who benefit from attracting EV consumers to their shops or being charged at a rate that allows the charger to pay for itself.
So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
DonkeyApple said:
The real question is whether other EV firms will find the need to get their investors to finance free electricity in order to incentivise the selling of cars?
The answer is that they won’t and the free electricity at the moment is not a long term service.
The other real question is where will non domestic charging costs end up being in a few years time as they will need to be commercially viable. Either subsidised by car park owners who benefit from attracting EV consumers to their shops or being charged at a rate that allows the charger to pay for itself.
So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
DA any guesses as to what the government will do once tax from fossil fuels nosedive? The answer is that they won’t and the free electricity at the moment is not a long term service.
The other real question is where will non domestic charging costs end up being in a few years time as they will need to be commercially viable. Either subsidised by car park owners who benefit from attracting EV consumers to their shops or being charged at a rate that allows the charger to pay for itself.
So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
Do you think they will directly tax EVs in some way?
DonkeyApple said:
The other real question is where will non domestic charging costs end up being in a few years time as they will need to be commercially viable. Either subsidised by car park owners who benefit from attracting EV consumers to their shops or being charged at a rate that allows the charger to pay for itself.
So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
Current prices range from around 11p per kWh on polar with a 7 quid a month subscription through 30p for ecotricity (if you can get it to work) to 35p plus for ionity and similar So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
DonkeyApple said:
The real question is whether other EV firms will find the need to get their investors to finance free electricity in order to incentivise the selling of cars?
The answer is that they won’t and the free electricity at the moment is not a long term service.
The other real question is where will non domestic charging costs end up being in a few years time as they will need to be commercially viable. Either subsidised by car park owners who benefit from attracting EV consumers to their shops or being charged at a rate that allows the charger to pay for itself.
So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
I think the biggest problem ICE engines have is inefficiency. The answer is that they won’t and the free electricity at the moment is not a long term service.
The other real question is where will non domestic charging costs end up being in a few years time as they will need to be commercially viable. Either subsidised by car park owners who benefit from attracting EV consumers to their shops or being charged at a rate that allows the charger to pay for itself.
So will electricity still be cheaper than petrol in a decade’s time when chargers need to make a profit like petrol pumps and domestic electricity is taxed at a higher rate above a basic government defined usage level?
I calculated earlier in the thread that a fully charged Model s 85 has the same amount of energy in the batteries as 10 odd litres of petrol.
Your thinking is also confused. With electric cars most people charge at home most of the time. So the chargers needing to make a profit is kind of irrelevant as most people will only use them infrequently.
T-195 said:
WestyCarl said:
ntiz said:
DonkeyApple said:
ntiz said:
The amount of people that have no idea that Tesla’s are basically free to run is insane.
The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Really? Are you sure that you’re just not meeting an abnormally high number of monumentally thick people? The amount of people that have asked how much it costs me in electricity to go to business meeting and have practically fallen over when my answer is absolutely nothing is ridiculous.
Could you imagine if they did a TV advert “London to Milan for nothing. The future is here”
The hype that would create would be massive!
Edited by ntiz on Wednesday 21st August 23:04
. Do you work for a Government dept? In all seriousness most of my customers are shocked when I turn up in Italy in a Tesla. Petrolheads know about the supercharging network most don’t really know how it all works or care. Until it affects there buying decision.
) the general public lack of knowledge and understanding regarding Hybrids and EV's is massive.Surely the vast majority of EVs will be a damn site cheaper to run than any Tesla. The cars aren't free.
you've just proved my point I didn't mention Musktrat, just the lack of public knowledge regarding EV's and Hybrids.
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