Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[gangzoom]

Burwood said:

My opinion is meaningless. Good cars, innovative and cutting edge. The company is broken and the CEO reckless. See you at 250 by Xmas.

If Tesla hit 250 I'll be buying .

Anyone who thinks building a good EV is simple just take a look at the iPace. Looks great, great PR push, but the reality seems to be a car that is 45% less efficient than a Model S at M way speeds, whilst having less interior/cargo space, costs the same, and only been produced at a rate of sub 30K per annum.

When I got my Leaf in 2015 all the talk was about how by now there will be loads of EVs onsale from everyone, yet its still only really the Leaf/Zoe/i3/Tesla been mass produced, same as in 2015, and I suspect come 2020 itll still be the same.

[RumbleOfThunder]

hyphen said:

CABC said:

Germans (and others) were caught off guard in 2014/15.
Now they're coming with purpose....

Perhaps, or perhaps they consciously stuck with what has continued to make them massive amounts of money, biding their time until the leccy market was ready.

This. EV's are not revolutionary per se. The technology is as old as the ICE, OEM's just opted to wait for a "disrupter" to take the financial hit to the tune of $1bn per quarter. They will now move in to consume the market as it matures and the public get accustomed to the idea of pure electric travel.

[CABC]

Heres Johnny said:

CABC said:

Germans (and others) were caught off guard in 2014/15.
.

How come? You say that like they were ignoring the market.

Did BMW not launch the i brand with a full EV and have made hybrids and rex?

Did Merc not actually own a chunk of Tesla back then and had them make a car for them?

Is the eGolf a figment of the imagination?

Tesla has caught the imagination of buyers but its not like the other manufacturers weren't in the market in some form. Volumes until now have still been relatively modest, the model 3 volumes are still to be properly tested for sustainability, the 500k reservations are appearing slow to convert to orders, and while there is undoubtedly a market for the cars, the size of that market at the current price points is still to be seen.

my reading of the situation is that everyone knew EV was about to happen, but that it would start at the low end, hence Prius etc.
Tesla stole the march with a sexy premium vehicle, and it sold well (sales & unfulfilled orders). one year (14 or 15?) the Germans lost around 20% of their N.American sales). i read somewhere that BMW, Merc acknowledged that they were caught off guard and accelerated development of their bigger e offerings.

Not many could have forecast in 2014 that we'd be where we are now in 2018. the cars aren't all here yet, but the debate and energy (pardon the pun) in the market have transformed (another pun) dramatically.

[WestyCarl]

Flumpo said:

Welshbeef said:

Tony427 said:

RumbleOfThunder said:

What's this practice even called?

Blackmail, robbery or obtaining money through menaces......allegedly.

What would be interesting is if one of his key suppliers just tells him to take a jump. Key component shortages would prtobably arise and that tent can only hide so much.

This happens ALL the time in the supermaket business & also Carillion did it too. It’s far far more common than yours ever realise

B&q do this with their suppliers all the time too. I knew a company that provided them building materials and they ended up expecting it and factoring it in to the original costs.

No idea about the car supply trade though.

Takes many forms in the car industry (Europe anyway).
- Annual Price Reductions (sometimes retroactive)
- Want business on new model - reduce price on existing business (backdated)
- Want enquiry for new model - reduce price on current (backdated) or make a lump sum payment.

Tesla are now getting some reasonable volume (for Automotive) so are starting to leverage their position on suppliers, nothing unusual.

[anonymous-user]

CABC said:

my reading of the situation is that everyone knew EV was about to happen, but that it would start at the low end, hence Prius etc.
Tesla stole the march with a sexy premium vehicle, and it sold well (sales & unfulfilled orders). one year (14 or 15?) the Germans lost around 20% of their N.American sales). i read somewhere that BMW, Merc acknowledged that they were caught off guard and accelerated development of their bigger e offerings.

Not many could have forecast in 2014 that we'd be where we are now in 2018. the cars aren't all here yet, but the debate and energy (pardon the pun) in the market have transformed (another pun) dramatically.

Which Germans lost 20% of their sales?

Doesn’t seem to have been BMW or Mercedes.

Sure it wasn’t VW because of the emissions scandal?

BMW. All Models Market Share

2017 305.685 1,77%
2016 313.174 1,79%
2015 346.023 1,98%
2014 339.738 2,06%
2013 309.280 1,98%
2012 281.460 1,94%


Merc-Benz All Models Market Share

2017 372.240 2,16%
2016 374.540 2,14%
2015 372.977 2,13%
2014 356.134 2,15%
2013 334.324 2,15%
2012 294.993 2,04%

[RobDickinson]

It was probably just in s class/7 series sales against the tesla s or something.

[CABC]

Maybe it was Audi? And that could be a vag issue? Ah well, that theory busted!

[jamoor]

REALIST123 said:

Which Germans lost 20% of their sales?

Doesn’t seem to have been BMW or Mercedes.

Sure it wasn’t VW because of the emissions scandal?

BMW. All Models Market Share

2017 305.685 1,77%
2016 313.174 1,79%
2015 346.023 1,98%
2014 339.738 2,06%
2013 309.280 1,98%
2012 281.460 1,94%


Merc-Benz All Models Market Share

2017 372.240 2,16%
2016 374.540 2,14%
2015 372.977 2,13%
2014 356.134 2,15%
2013 334.324 2,15%
2012 294.993 2,04%

That's all models, if you compare it against its competitor (S class, 7 series and A8)

[anonymous-user]

jamoor said:

REALIST123 said:

Which Germans lost 20% of their sales?

Doesn’t seem to have been BMW or Mercedes.

Sure it wasn’t VW because of the emissions scandal?

BMW. All Models Market Share

2017 305.685 1,77%
2016 313.174 1,79%
2015 346.023 1,98%
2014 339.738 2,06%
2013 309.280 1,98%
2012 281.460 1,94%


Merc-Benz All Models Market Share

2017 372.240 2,16%
2016 374.540 2,14%
2015 372.977 2,13%
2014 356.134 2,15%
2013 334.324 2,15%
2012 294.993 2,04%

That's all models, if you compare it against its competitor (S class, 7 series and A8)

I was responding to this statement:

“one year (14 or 15?) the Germans lost around 20% of their N.American sales)”

As for comparing it to an S class, IMO you can’t, other than price wise. And yes, I’ve driven both.

[Toaster]

RobDickinson said:

Which is bullst...

Have you seen the order list? if not I suspect you are correct but given that Musk has been a little odd on media there will be some cancellations so probably not total bullst

Edited to say cancelations look 50/50 on this thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... although not significant as a statistic

Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 24th July 14:20

[Toaster]

WestyCarl said:

In the Auto industry it's common place, surprised Tesla haven't done it already.

In May Mr Musk was asked by Morgan Stanley asked if Tesla would raise more capital whilst they could, to which Mr Musk stated they didn't want to

[Toaster]

Tesla loses top sales exec ahead of second-quarter earnings....

It will be interesting to see if this is a Canary in a coal mine scenario or it may just be the guy got a better offer and we shouldn't read to much in to it.

[RobDickinson]

Statistically Tesla exec turnover is about industry average. Like everything though related it all makes headlines because..

[RobDickinson]

Toaster said:

ave you seen the order list? if not I suspect you are correct but given that Musk has been a little odd on media there will be some cancellations so probably not total bullst

Edited to say cancelations look 50/50 on this thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... although not significant as a statistic

Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 24th July 14:20

If course there have been cancelations be odd not to have.

Musk has said still 400k plus pre-orders at shareholder meeting recently, legally binding, plus tweeted last week 7k orders net that week.

But yeah some baseless story in oil funded short selling press is more valid.

[Camelot1971]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/tesla-...

Tesla asking suppliers for cash back..... perfectly normal

[Burwood]

RobDickinson said:

Toaster said:

ave you seen the order list? if not I suspect you are correct but given that Musk has been a little odd on media there will be some cancellations so probably not total bullst

Edited to say cancelations look 50/50 on this thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... although not significant as a statistic

Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 24th July 14:20

If course there have been cancelations be odd not to have.

Musk has said still 400k plus pre-orders at shareholder meeting recently, legally binding, plus tweeted last week 7k orders net that week.

But yeah some baseless story in oil funded short selling press is more valid.

The issue with Musk is he is a known bullstter.

[Heres Johnny]

RobDickinson said:

Statistically Tesla exec turnover is about industry average. Like everything though related it all makes headlines because..

Go on then... quote some numbers

[Plug Life]

RobDickinson said:

Statistically Tesla exec turnover is about industry average. Like everything though related it all makes headlines because..

...because Tesla is overhyped.

[AstonZagato]

Burwood said:

RobDickinson said:

Toaster said:

ave you seen the order list? if not I suspect you are correct but given that Musk has been a little odd on media there will be some cancellations so probably not total bullst

Edited to say cancelations look 50/50 on this thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... although not significant as a statistic

Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 24th July 14:20

If course there have been cancelations be odd not to have.

Musk has said still 400k plus pre-orders at shareholder meeting recently, legally binding, plus tweeted last week 7k orders net that week.

But yeah some baseless story in oil funded short selling press is more valid.

The issue with Musk is he is a known bullstter.

He might or might not be but, as the CEO of a US listed company, he is subject to Sarbanes-Oxley. It would be very dangerous to mislead the market on such an issue.

[Plug Life]

Tread carefully if you are trolling Tesla because Elon will call your boss and complain

https://electrek.co/2018/07/24/tesla-troll-short-d...