Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
the mini is due shortly and they are working on the SUVs
Don't forget the i4 https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021-bmw-i4-off...hyphen said:
DonkeyApple said:
the mini is due shortly and they are working on the SUVs
Don't forget the i4 https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021-bmw-i4-off...DonkeyApple said:
Tuna said:
The challenge for Tesla in the UK particularly when it comes to stealing those suburban BMW owners is surely the number of owners who only have on-street parking.
It’s the challenge they all face but you’d think it would be less of an issue for a brand like BMW? 50% of UK households have off street parking and you’d think that outside of the 1 series that 50% would be larger for your average BMW owner than for other brands?Tuna said:
The point was more that BMW can address the whole market with an ICE offering (minus a relatively small percentage who must have an EV), whereas Tesla can only address that minority, and must in addition overcome the challenges of the UK's shoddy infrastructure.
Not just ice, but hybrids.There was n article recently on here about BMW launching several new hybrids. Apparently they qualify for the BIK discounts, as on that thread, EV nuts were angrily saying BMW is cheating
DonkeyApple said:
It’s the challenge they all face but you’d think it would be less of an issue for a brand like BMW? 50% of UK households have off street parking and you’d think that outside of the 1 series that 50% would be larger for your average BMW owner than for other brands?
Not at all.BMW smack it in the company car market. Historically, the 318d and 320d were by miles the best (and more importantly most showy) cars available for their tax and lease cost bracket. The Ovlov was 50 quid more a month, the Audi A4 with the 1.9 Tdi cost far more on tax, hell it cost me more for that temporary pool car mondeo than the 320d efficientdynamics. Got to drive many towards the BM. Meanwhile, often due to the (outgoing) co. car regs sometimes it was a 3 series or an Audi A3, clearl a posing step up. They had that thing aimed perfectly at it's target market and I think that at some point it was more popular numbers wise than the far cheaper Mondeo.
What's my point, you ask? A huge number of co. car sales are sales reps and middle management. Want to show f
k nuts next door that you've got it going on? Get the beemer. It matters not that you're earning about the same and live in the semi next door (that is a mirror image, as well as identical to 50% of the street). you have a BM, he has a Vauxhall. You win. You're a better salesman / more up the middle management chain than Sheila next door and that i that.The cost of cars and the provision of off street parking doesn't correlate. here in leafy Cheshire you get people displaying the automotive high life in semis, and in London I am guessing you have poeple in 2m pads with no parking spot. I admit those people aren't 2 series guys but still...
Edited by Some Gump on Sunday 17th November 22:31
Some Gump said:
What's my point, you ask? A huge number of co. car sales are sales reps and middle management. Want to show fk nuts next door that you've got it going on? Get the beemer. It matters not that you're earning about the same and live in the semi next door (that is a mirror image, as well as identical to 50% of the street). you have a BM, he has a Vauxhall. You win. You're a better salesman / more up the middle management chain than Sheila next door and that i that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQsMFQZa8osk nuts next door that you've got it going on? Get the beemer. It matters not that you're earning about the same and live in the semi next door (that is a mirror image, as well as identical to 50% of the street). you have a BM, he has a Vauxhall. You win. You're a better salesman / more up the middle management chain than Sheila next door and that i that.Some Gump said:
DonkeyApple said:
It’s the challenge they all face but you’d think it would be less of an issue for a brand like BMW? 50% of UK households have off street parking and you’d think that outside of the 1 series that 50% would be larger for your average BMW owner than for other brands?
Not at all.BMW smack it in the company car market. Historically, the 318d and 320d were by miles the best (and more importantly most showy) cars available for their tax and lease cost bracket. The Ovlov was 50 quid more a month, the Audi A4 with the 1.9 Tdi cost far more on tax, hell it cost me more for that temporary pool car mondeo than the 320d efficientdynamics. Got to drive many towards the BM. Meanwhile, often due to the (outgoing) co. car regs sometimes it was a 3 series or an Audi A3, clearl a posing step up. They had that thing aimed perfectly at it's target market and I think that at some point it was more popular numbers wise than the far cheaper Mondeo.
What's my point, you ask? A huge number of co. car sales are sales reps and middle management. Want to show f
k nuts next door that you've got it going on? Get the beemer. It matters not that you're earning about the same and live in the semi next door (that is a mirror image, as well as identical to 50% of the street). you have a BM, he has a Vauxhall. You win. You're a better salesman / more up the middle management chain than Sheila next door and that i that.The cost of cars and the provision of off street parking doesn't correlate. here in leafy Cheshire you get people displaying the automotive high life in semis, and in London I am guessing you have poeple in 2m pads with no parking spot. I admit those people aren't 2 series guys but still...
Edited by Some Gump on Sunday 17th November 22:31
Come April BMW 3er no longer is the most attractive tax proposition on the market in the U.K. in fact the BMW is a terrible deal.
hyphen said:
Not just ice, but hybrids.
There was n article recently on here about BMW launching several new hybrids. Apparently they qualify for the BIK discounts, as on that thread, EV nuts were angrily saying BMW is cheating
They are all expert at producing cars which comply with the exact wording of the rules but which might not provide the benefit originally intended. There was n article recently on here about BMW launching several new hybrids. Apparently they qualify for the BIK discounts, as on that thread, EV nuts were angrily saying BMW is cheating
For the hybrid side of things, just look at the Volvo T8 engine which IIRC scraped within the 50g CO2/km. I'm sure the government didn't have that in mind when it drafted the rules.
And even from an ICE perspective, you can see now many modern turbo engines which improve CO2 emissions, according to the test cycles, but which in reality are barely any more efficient than their normally aspirated predecessors despite lots of added complexity.
But the fault for this isn't with the manufacturers - its the government who employ people who aren't commercially minded and who therefore draft poorly written rules.
Some Gump said:
DonkeyApple said:
It’s the challenge they all face but you’d think it would be less of an issue for a brand like BMW? 50% of UK households have off street parking and you’d think that outside of the 1 series that 50% would be larger for your average BMW owner than for other brands?
Not at all.BMW smack it in the company car market. Historically, the 318d and 320d were by miles the best (and more importantly most showy) cars available for their tax and lease cost bracket. The Ovlov was 50 quid more a month, the Audi A4 with the 1.9 Tdi cost far more on tax, hell it cost me more for that temporary pool car mondeo than the 320d efficientdynamics. Got to drive many towards the BM. Meanwhile, often due to the (outgoing) co. car regs sometimes it was a 3 series or an Audi A3, clearl a posing step up. They had that thing aimed perfectly at it's target market and I think that at some point it was more popular numbers wise than the far cheaper Mondeo.
What's my point, you ask? A huge number of co. car sales are sales reps and middle management. Want to show f
k nuts next door that you've got it going on? Get the beemer. It matters not that you're earning about the same and live in the semi next door (that is a mirror image, as well as identical to 50% of the street). you have a BM, he has a Vauxhall. You win. You're a better salesman / more up the middle management chain than Sheila next door and that i that.The cost of cars and the provision of off street parking doesn't correlate. here in leafy Cheshire you get people displaying the automotive high life in semis, and in London I am guessing you have poeple in 2m pads with no parking spot. I admit those people aren't 2 series guys but still...
Edited by Some Gump on Sunday 17th November 22:31
There are lots of things to consider and all EV manufacturers who sell in the UK will benefit significantly from the impending change but it seems unlikely that BMW is suddenly going to lose this business completely to a high risk brand that can’t deliver on time, service on time or have a proper network of representatives. It’s incredibly hard for manufacturers to break into the fleet market and while Tesla have a big EV advantage they also have the disadvantage of being only an EV vendor, no credible corporate leasing ability, a product that only works for a limited number of users, an inability to get product where it needs to be exactly when it needs to be there, an inability to service efficiently, restrictions on importing and no network.
Individual demand we have to imagine is going to be high. Who wouldn’t want a Tesla on their drive announcing to the street that they are the winner. The brand arguably has that aspect in the bag, this is a seriously aspirational product but in most cases the final decision does rest with the individual employee but between the two companies, the one that is going to be leasing the car and the one that is going to be building, delivering and maintaining it.
What BIK will do is massively increase the flow of used plug ins and hybrids into the market place. I think that is actually the most relevant and interesting aspect. At the moment if you want a three year old EV you have to wait for one of the small number of affluent consumers to dispose of theirs but BIK is going to flood the fleet market with hybrids and plug ins to hundreds of thousands of consumers who couldn’t afford an EV. I think it’s fair to say that within about 3/4 years of the BIK change taking effect we will have a credible free(ish) market for these cars and a wide range of choice as all those ex fleet cars flood the market each year and start filling up private driveways.
Not sure the range issue is that big a problem for 99% of company car drivers TBH. My job requires quite a bit of travel but as we have different regions a 200 mile range would be sufficient for pretty much all of my round trips without needing to charge during the day (Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Oxford etc.).
There are of course people doing significantly more miles than that but I'd suggest they are very much a small minority. The 'Goldilocks' zone as you put it will cover everyone else just fine.
There are of course people doing significantly more miles than that but I'd suggest they are very much a small minority. The 'Goldilocks' zone as you put it will cover everyone else just fine.
DonkeyApple said:
Huge numbers of cars in the UK are financed via company car schemes. You can see Tesla gaining a lot of demand from the segment that is derived from the companies of individuals. But when it comes to fleet managers, while there is going to be a clear need to stick as many EVs as possible on the list we do have to bear in mind a couple of things which is firstly that EVs aren’t very convenient. They work better for some drivers whose car usage and lifestyle fits in that Goldilocks zone and of course that zone is expanding daily but for a lot of workers they aren’t as convenient as a petrol car.
There are two big factors to owning an EV:- Can you charge at home?
- Is your regular day <300km/200mi (SR Model 3, Kona)?
If you do more than 450km/day imho you're a professional driver more than anything else, as you'd be spending 5 hours or more a day a the car.
Over here Tesla's, despite not aiming towards the fleet market (no fleet discounts, uncertain future,...), are extremely popular with companies, the biggest issues are often budgets that the employees can't fit it in their budget yet (there's no Tesla without options like you can get an A4/3-series).
Edited by ZesPak on Monday 18th November 09:55
SWoll said:
Not sure the range issue is that big a problem for 99% of company car drivers TBH. My job requires quite a bit of travel but as we have different regions a 200 mile range would be sufficient for pretty much all of my round trips without needing to charge during the day (Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Oxford etc.).
that's 3 identical comments in a couple of minutes.Not just the 200 mile barrier but even the 300 mile barrier has been broken.
On top of that, I do ~300km daily and I had a ~300km range EV. It's not ideal but destination charging if available makes it more than workable. If I travel further I often stay in a hotel, and it's not hard to just select a hotel where you could charge if necessary.
But will it do 300 miles when it's -2 outside, with the heater, lights, wipers on, and a stretch that usually takes 2 hours, but now takes 6 because of the conditions/stuck vehicles, and having to take back roads to get around issues.
300 miles on a good day doesn't really matter. Can it do 300 miles on the worst day, when you just want to get home asap.
300 miles on a good day doesn't really matter. Can it do 300 miles on the worst day, when you just want to get home asap.
ZesPak said:
DonkeyApple said:
Huge numbers of cars in the UK are financed via company car schemes. You can see Tesla gaining a lot of demand from the segment that is derived from the companies of individuals. But when it comes to fleet managers, while there is going to be a clear need to stick as many EVs as possible on the list we do have to bear in mind a couple of things which is firstly that EVs aren’t very convenient. They work better for some drivers whose car usage and lifestyle fits in that Goldilocks zone and of course that zone is expanding daily but for a lot of workers they aren’t as convenient as a petrol car.
There are two big factors to owning an EV:- Can you charge at home?
- Is your regular day <300km/200mi (SR Model 3, Kona)?
If you do more than 450km/day imho you're a professional driver more than anything else, as you'd be spending 5 hours or more a day a the car.
Over here Tesla's, despite not aiming towards the fleet market (no fleet discounts, uncertain future,...), are extremely popular with companies, the biggest issues are often budgets that the employees can't fit it in their budget yet (there's no Tesla without options like you can get an A4/3-series).
Edited by ZesPak on Monday 18th November 09:55
The Goldilocks zone is very relevant as it is exactly why the uptakenof EVs has been so slow and why there is only uptake in affluent markets where this affluencenis combined with clear incentives.
How do you fun a fleet of £40k Tesla’s when your average fleet cost is £20k for example? Or if your fleet is almost entirely vans?
The point here is that there are very valid reasons for the slow adoption of EVs and while the change to BIK should have a significant positive impact in this there seem to be people operating under the impression that this BIK change will lead to every company car being an EV whereas in reality it obviously won’t as there are few EV vans and the majority of fleet cars are at the lower cost end below the average EV lease price even with incentives.
The true benefit will be the increase in used stock filtering through to the private market. This will be significantly accelerated and meet a real consumer demand that is currently without much product.
We've looked at this at work (EV's for company car drivers)
At the moment the lease costs are too high, it seems most of the lease companies are unsure about the vehicle depreciation (the major lease cost) so are pricing with this is mind. Either that are they are trying to profiteer knowing that many employess will be pushing for an EV to save on BIK.
At the moment the lease costs are too high, it seems most of the lease companies are unsure about the vehicle depreciation (the major lease cost) so are pricing with this is mind. Either that are they are trying to profiteer knowing that many employess will be pushing for an EV to save on BIK.
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