Used Zoe

[TartanPaint]

I've done some browsing here and on other EV forums, and would appreciate individual experience/advice from those who've done what I'm thinking of doing.

Mrs TartanPaint is moving offices and is currently using my Scooby to get to the park and ride, but the new office will require a car for about 33 miles/day on mixed roads and some stop-start traffic.

I think an EV would be a great solution for lots of reasons, but I want to do it on a budget so the rest of the fleet doesn't need to be sacrificed.

Used 2015 Zoes are under £7k for a Dynamic Nav, or about £10k for a i-Dynamic (battery owned).

The sums work out marginally better for the rental battery because of the much cheaper purchase price, even accounting for any excess miles we might do, so I think a £6-7k 2015 mid-spec Zoe will be a fun first step into EV ownership.

Has anyone bought a used Zoe, and are there any issues to look out for, or any reason to look at something else instead?

I know that's all a bit vague, but basically I'm just after a sanity check. Am I mad? Are they fun little commuters, or tiny plasticy garbage? Have used Zoes depreciated so far for any reason other than the battery rentals putting people off? Where do you think used values will bottom out? If I spend £6k on a battery rental model, will it be worth £4k or 50p in two years time?

Any and all thoughts and experiences much appreciated.

Thanks!

[HTP99]

Where are you finding used "i" models?

They are a good and reliable car, the main issue with depreciation is the battery hire and it being electric; Leafs drop a similar amount too.

They have a 4 year warranty so you will find something with at least a year on it.

I personally would get the "i" if you can, it'll be far easier to shift on, remember with the battery rental one, the battery always has to have an agreement on it so shifting it on may be more of a hassle and many people don't want the battery rental hassle.

As for value, after 2 years, a £6k, battery rental car is likely to be worth alot less than £4k.

[TartanPaint]

My concern with a battery-owned i model is that selling in a few years at 4-5 years old, nobody will want the risk of an ageing battery with no warranty on it. The rented batteries have some assurance that they will be replaced. I think I agree that a 2 year old car is more desirable with no battery rent, but a 4-5 year old car might not be when I'm finished with it. To mitigate that, I have to depreciate a very large chunk of the £10k i-model over 2-3 years, and then the monthly sums just stop working due to the insane depreciation. Might as well lease a new one. Which defeats the whole purpose of a cheap used EV.

I guess it's going to be a gamble either way.

Thanks.

[TooLateForAName]

I'd say that selling a used battery rental in a couple of years will be hard work.

They only replace it if it falls to something like 70%. Remember that even battery owned have a warranty on the battery.

On speakEV battery rental cars have to be very cheap to sell. and as they get older they get almost impossible to sell because the rental is still at 'new' rates.

I think that the sensible choices are either buy new on PCP or buy used battery owned. I'd expect some very good prices on the current Leaf with the new model about to arrive.

Edited by TooLateForAName on Friday 27th October 11:47

[TooLateForAName]

TartanPaint said:

I If I spend £6k on a battery rental model, will it be worth £4k or 50p in two years time?

50p

[feef]

TartanPaint said:

My concern with a battery-owned i model is that selling in a few years at 4-5 years old, nobody will want the risk of an ageing battery with no warranty on it. The rented batteries have some assurance that they will be replaced. I think I agree that a 2 year old car is more desirable with no battery rent, but a 4-5 year old car might not be when I'm finished with it. To mitigate that, I have to depreciate a very large chunk of the £10k i-model over 2-3 years, and then the monthly sums just stop working due to the insane depreciation. Might as well lease a new one. Which defeats the whole purpose of a cheap used EV.

I guess it's going to be a gamble either way.

Thanks.

I'd take a battery-owned, second hand car no problem, in fact it would be my preference. With my current diesel costs, I've worked out that a second hand EV would pay for itself in about 2 years (assuming a purchase cost of about £6-7k) and even with a reduced range, would still be more than sufficient for the vast majority of my journeys. Anything after 2 years is effectively free motoring so if I need to scrap it, it's not going to hurt

[essayer]

It's really tough to work out on the ZOE now

ZOE 40 is around £3k/yr (PCP) plus a higher battery rental, RV after 3 yrs is ~4k

A 2-yr-old ZOE 22 will be about £6k, plus a slightly lower rental ; the battery owned version closer to £10k

No idea what to do with my ZOE 22 in April when it goes back.

[TartanPaint]

TooLateForAName said:

I'd say that selling a used battery rental in a couple of years will be hard work.

They only replace it if it falls to something like 70%. Remember that even battery owned have a warranty on the battery.

On speakEV battery rental cars have to be very cheap to sell. and as they get older they get almost impossible to sell because the rental is still at 'new' rates.

I think that the sensible choices are either buy new on PCP or buy used battery owned. I'd expect some very good prices on the current Leaf with the new model about to arrive.

Edited by TooLateForAName on Friday 27th October 11:47

I didn't know there was a warranty on owned batteries. I'll look into that, thanks. That could make it all add up.

I'm not getting good offers on carwow for new Leaf. Getting bonkers discounts offered on a new Zoe though. New 40s are £17k for a battery-owned i-Dynamique Nav!

[lost in espace]

We had a Zoe sent it back early, now have 2 Leafs. Leaf is a better, bigger car. A 2015 24kwh car with 15-20k will be about £8k. My wife commutes 35 miles a day in hers. Saves a fortune in fuel. If you buy a rental battery Zoe you might have to give it away, although there was talk of the batteries being handed over to owners.

[TartanPaint]

lost in espace said:

We had a Zoe sent it back early, now have 2 Leafs. Leaf is a better, bigger car. A 2015 24kwh car with 15-20k will be about £8k. My wife commutes 35 miles a day in hers. Saves a fortune in fuel. If you buy a rental battery Zoe you might have to give it away, although there was talk of the batteries being handed over to owners.

£8k would be for a rental battery Leaf though, no?

There's also the problem that the Leaf is extremely ugly, and would be a hard sell to the Mrs. I agree the Leaf is the better car, but will cost more to buy, more to run and starts to make a 1.0 Fiesta look more appealing.

[Frimley111R]

TartanPaint said:

My concern with a battery-owned i model is that selling in a few years at 4-5 years old, nobody will want the risk of an ageing battery with no warranty on it. .

As opposed to a very complex engined IC vehicle?

The batteries have already proven to be very reliable and resistant to use and age so don't worry. Also, by that time EVs will be much more popular so your market will be much bigger.

[Carrot]

Definitely owned. If it gets too old or has a fault that is not battery related and very expensive (almost write off levels) to fix, you and you alone are liable for returning the battery to RCI at your cost.

This is the main reason I ordered new, and am not purchasing second hand.

[Deerfoot]

Somebody is buying them.

I've been keeping a watch on a few for a couple of weeks. Three have been sold in the past 72 hours...

[poo at Paul's]

lost in espace said:

We had a Zoe sent it back early, now have 2 Leafs. Leaf is a better, bigger car. A 2015 24kwh car with 15-20k will be about £8k. My wife commutes 35 miles a day in hers. Saves a fortune in fuel. If you buy a rental battery Zoe you might have to give it away, although there was talk of the batteries being handed over to owners.

We let the Zoe go back early as the numbers were just not adding up. My wife used it mostly and her mileage was 8k to 9k per year, and we just didn't see any real savings, certainly it didn't save a "fortune" as you've suggested. Her fuel bill was just less than £1000 last year on an a5 cabriolet diesel.
When we had the Zoe and were talking of sending it back, sadly, the reality was that a 1.5 diesel clio was a cheaper option overall. Our Zoe was on a cheap lease, £119 per month for the car, then £80 per month for the battery.

We saw the EV experience as actually that, an experience, but if you are thinking they will save you a fortune, think it through again and make sure you're happy with the numbers. Factor in the charging costs too, we noticed more electricity usage at home also, not massive, but around 15 quid a month.

I'm not trying to put anyone off, just be realistic with your expectations.

[sjg]

TooLateForAName said:

I'd say that selling a used battery rental in a couple of years will be hard work.

They only replace it if it falls to something like 70%. Remember that even battery owned have a warranty on the battery.

On speakEV battery rental cars have to be very cheap to sell. and as they get older they get almost impossible to sell because the rental is still at 'new' rates.

I think that the sensible choices are either buy new on PCP or buy used battery owned. I'd expect some very good prices on the current Leaf with the new model about to arrive.

Edited by TooLateForAName on Friday 27th October 11:47

Conversely I'd put money on Renault sorting out a way to pay them money and buy out the battery, as Nissan have. They have way too many of these things coming back that people don't want. If I was going to keep for a few years I'd be inclined to pick up a cheap battery-rental one and keep the extra money aside for later.

I have no idea where values will go though. Yes, there'll be a nice expanding market of people waking up to electric motoring, but also an industry putting out better and better cars every year. The usual depreciation models for cars rely on new models being basically the same save for a new little new features, not the big jumps in capability that we see now in EVs.

[TartanPaint]

Thanks all. I've ditched the idea of an EV for now. The savings are just not there, new or used, battery-owned or leased. Nothing adds up. Purchase prices new and used are exciting at first glance, but the total running cost spreadsheet says no due to the terrible depreciation or battery rental or both.

I will keep revisiting every few months and see what happens to used prices, Renault rental buy-outs etc.

Thanks again!

[TooLateForAName]

I'd suggest that you revisit the situation in 6 months and buy a used leaf (battery included). New model will be out and there will be a lot of people upgrading for the range.

Keep an eye on speakEV classifieds.

[IanCress]

TartanPaint said:

Thanks all. I've ditched the idea of an EV for now. The savings are just not there, new or used, battery-owned or leased. Nothing adds up. Purchase prices new and used are exciting at first glance, but the total running cost spreadsheet says no due to the terrible depreciation or battery rental or both.

I will keep revisiting every few months and see what happens to used prices, Renault rental buy-outs etc.

Thanks again!

This is the same conclusion I came to. An EV would be perfect for my 20 mile a day round trip but I can't make the sums add up. The cheapest battery lease on a Zoe is roughly equal to my monthly fuel cost, so that's any savings wiped out before you even drive the thing.

Eventually ended up buying a used ICE car for £3k, which works out far cheaper (unless it suffers a major failure) than any used EV at the moment. Things may change in a couple of years, but for the moment used EV's don't offer enough of a saving to bother with.

[babatunde]

poo at Paul's said:

lost in espace said:

We had a Zoe sent it back early, now have 2 Leafs. Leaf is a better, bigger car. A 2015 24kwh car with 15-20k will be about £8k. My wife commutes 35 miles a day in hers. Saves a fortune in fuel. If you buy a rental battery Zoe you might have to give it away, although there was talk of the batteries being handed over to owners.

We let the Zoe go back early as the numbers were just not adding up. My wife used it mostly and her mileage was 8k to 9k per year, and we just didn't see any real savings, certainly it didn't save a "fortune" as you've suggested. Her fuel bill was just less than £1000 last year on an a5 cabriolet diesel.
When we had the Zoe and were talking of sending it back, sadly, the reality was that a 1.5 diesel clio was a cheaper option overall. Our Zoe was on a cheap lease, £119 per month for the car, then £80 per month for the battery.

We saw the EV experience as actually that, an experience, but if you are thinking they will save you a fortune, think it through again and make sure you're happy with the numbers. Factor in the charging costs too, we noticed more electricity usage at home also, not massive, but around 15 quid a month.

I'm not trying to put anyone off, just be realistic with your expectations.

Fair enough, used cars with "new car battery lease price" make very little sense IMO, thing is the depreciation will always be the major cost on new or newish car, which is why the Leaf deals at £150 or so made sense.

Also Agree that something has the change with the Zoe, or will 8 year old ones still have £80/month battery leases?

[jamiebae]

The speed at which the technology is developing is destroying RVs for electric cars. Advertised prices are not the prices the cars sell at, some are almost impossible to get rid of (Renault Fluence) and even the fully owned battery stuff is tough to shift because the range is nowhere near what a new car can do.

The Zoes are the biggest question mark though, at the moment the vast majority are battery lease cars and PCP returns simply aren't selling, even at sub £4k to the trade. This situation isn't going to improve so Renault will have a tough decision to make - buy them all back and dispose or export, offer owners the chance to buy the battery, or leave it as-is and deal with a lot of pissed off buyers sitting on worthless cars.