How long do you expect your EV's battery to last?
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
The problem is that's almost as simplistic as the "motorway miles" discussion with an ICE.
High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
This link https://speakev.com/threads/100-000-mile-env200.46... is an eNV200 that did 100,000 miles in 3 years - multiple rapid charging every day. No discernible loss of battery capacity.High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
The Nissan batteries don't like very high ambient temperatures, and apparently don't like being left for a long time less than 20% or higher than 80%.
If I know I'm going to be using my eNV200 early in the morning, I charge to 100%. If not I either leave it (left at around 50% over Christmas), or charge to 80%.
Mrs Caziques's early Leaf is more difficult. No battery % indicator, and I can't figure out how to limit the charge to 80% (all in Japanese).
I simply use a time clock and reckon on adding 30k to the range every hour. (Almost all charging is done at night rate, about 6p per kWh).
Looks like batteries are going to last way better than a lot of doomsayers thought - and in NZ (no rust), installing a new battery in an old car will basically make it like new again. (and the old battery can be used for storage in the house).
Evanivitch said:
The problem is that's almost as simplistic as the "motorway miles" discussion with an ICE.
High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Some Tesla S have done 200-300K miles now been charged to 100% daily and using Superchargers every day.High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Apparently only 6% degredation so far, and the owner reckons the battery is good for another 500K+ miles.....that is alot of miles.
https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tes...
gangzoom said:
Evanivitch said:
The problem is that's almost as simplistic as the "motorway miles" discussion with an ICE.
High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Some Tesla S have done 200-300K miles now been charged to 100% daily and using Superchargers every day.High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Apparently only 6% degredation so far, and the owner reckons the battery is good for another 500K+ miles.....that is alot of miles.
https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tes...
jimPH said:
We need a bigger sample size than 1 to come to any conclusions.
Will this do?? You have to do your own regression analysis though
*https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t024bMoRiDP...
- There is a line of best fit on the last sheet of the Excel document but no mention of R or B value so hard to know accuracy of the prediction model proposed.
Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 7th January 18:22
jimPH said:
gangzoom said:
Evanivitch said:
The problem is that's almost as simplistic as the "motorway miles" discussion with an ICE.
High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Some Tesla S have done 200-300K miles now been charged to 100% daily and using Superchargers every day.High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Apparently only 6% degredation so far, and the owner reckons the battery is good for another 500K+ miles.....that is alot of miles.
https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tes...
gangzoom said:
Evanivitch said:
The problem is that's almost as simplistic as the "motorway miles" discussion with an ICE.
High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Some Tesla S have done 200-300K miles now been charged to 100% daily and using Superchargers every day.High rate charging will be a lot more detrimental to a battery performance, per charge, than slow charging. Which is something that might become more obvious as we see more EV being used for taxi/courier work and typically using rapid chargers.
Apparently only 6% degredation so far, and the owner reckons the battery is good for another 500K+ miles.....that is alot of miles.
https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tes...
I think the battery degradation may be worse than reported by Tesla. During recent extreme weather events in the US I read that Tesla 'opened up ' additional battery capacity for their cars in the affected region to allow owners to escapee the storms safely.
Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
CJN said:
Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
So Tesla are putting in 100kWh battery packs into 60kWh cars that they sold for £55k, all to make an illusion of battery longevity??I honestly don't know where to start but to say perhaps Elvis is still alive, the moon landings were staged, and the world as we know it is nothing but a simulation
.gangzoom said:
CJN said:
Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
So Tesla are putting in 100kWh battery packs into 60kWh cars that they sold for £55k, all to make an illusion of battery longevity??I honestly don't know where to start but to say perhaps Elvis is still alive, the moon landings were staged, and the world as we know it is nothing but a simulation
.Tesla have allowed increased range on occasion (I think I recall it being done when a hurricane clobbered Florida).
Unless one suspects Tesla of some really devious tricks like bulking out the bigger battery packs with dead weight to conceal the fact they are all the same (!) then it's an easy enough thing to check.
Curb weight
1,961 kg (4,323 lb) (60)[10]
2,090 kg (4,608 lb) (60D)[11]
2,000 kg (4,410 lb) (70)
2,090 kg (4,608 lb) (70D)[12]
2,000 kg (4,410 lb) (75)
2,090 kg (4,608 lb) (75D)
2,108 kg (4,647 lb) (85)
2,112 kg (4,656 lb) (P85)
2,146 kg (4,731 lb) (P85+)
2,188 kg (4,824 lb) (85D)[11]
2,239 kg (4,936 lb) (P85D)[11]
2,200 kg (4,850 lb) (90D)
2,250 kg (4,960 lb) (P90D)
2,200 kg (4,850 lb) (100D)
2,250 kg (4,960 lb) (P100D)
Yes, there will be some variations due to trim etc but these are base model figures.
The simplest explanation is usually the right one, although that does tend to spoil the fun for the more romantically inclined.
'Full' and 'empty' on an EV are probably not things a user has direct knowledge of or control over - the manufacturers are going to keep strict control of those parameters to protect the batteries or you'd end up in the same situation as the devices that have given batteries a bad name already. That Tesla could 'add' to the capacity in an emergency likely just reflects them giving access to the lower few percent of capacity in a one-off situation.
Initially, my Powerwall would only charge to an indicated 90% and discharge to an indicated 10%. It now shows 100% and 0% but I don't for one moment think it actually gives me the full battery capacity, they just moved the definitions a bit as there is no way they would or could warrant it for 10 years without them having strict control over it.
Curb weight
1,961 kg (4,323 lb) (60)[10]
2,090 kg (4,608 lb) (60D)[11]
2,000 kg (4,410 lb) (70)
2,090 kg (4,608 lb) (70D)[12]
2,000 kg (4,410 lb) (75)
2,090 kg (4,608 lb) (75D)
2,108 kg (4,647 lb) (85)
2,112 kg (4,656 lb) (P85)
2,146 kg (4,731 lb) (P85+)
2,188 kg (4,824 lb) (85D)[11]
2,239 kg (4,936 lb) (P85D)[11]
2,200 kg (4,850 lb) (90D)
2,250 kg (4,960 lb) (P90D)
2,200 kg (4,850 lb) (100D)
2,250 kg (4,960 lb) (P100D)
Yes, there will be some variations due to trim etc but these are base model figures.
The simplest explanation is usually the right one, although that does tend to spoil the fun for the more romantically inclined.
'Full' and 'empty' on an EV are probably not things a user has direct knowledge of or control over - the manufacturers are going to keep strict control of those parameters to protect the batteries or you'd end up in the same situation as the devices that have given batteries a bad name already. That Tesla could 'add' to the capacity in an emergency likely just reflects them giving access to the lower few percent of capacity in a one-off situation.
Initially, my Powerwall would only charge to an indicated 90% and discharge to an indicated 10%. It now shows 100% and 0% but I don't for one moment think it actually gives me the full battery capacity, they just moved the definitions a bit as there is no way they would or could warrant it for 10 years without them having strict control over it.
Edited by Chris-S on Saturday 13th January 10:08
CJN said:
I think the battery degradation may be worse than reported by Tesla. During recent extreme weather events in the US I read that Tesla 'opened up ' additional battery capacity for their cars in the affected region to allow owners to escapee the storms safely.
Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
LOL Yipper has some competition!Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
Plug Life said:
CJN said:
I think the battery degradation may be worse than reported by Tesla. During recent extreme weather events in the US I read that Tesla 'opened up ' additional battery capacity for their cars in the affected region to allow owners to escapee the storms safely.
Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
LOL Yipper has some competition!Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
CJN - Tesla sold for a while a version of their cars with a software locked limit on the battery, the owners could pay anytime they wanted to unlock the extra capacity. In a way it's no different to a petrol engined car having different power outputs based on nothing but code and sold at different prices, only if in that case you couldn't get the manufacturer to release the extra, you'd have to go somewhere to get the car remapped. Anyway, back to the story, during the freak weather, Tesla, for nothing, released this extra capacity to allow the owners to increase their range and help alleviate the problem of getting away, a bit like BMW sending out a software update, over the air, to say "your petrol tank is now 3 gallons bigger".
What that has to do with battery degradation is way beyond my comprehension, its a bit like saying a car with a bigger petrol tank has worse fuel economy.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Saturday 13th January 14:30
jjwilde said:
There are already companies/garages specialising in replacing/expanding battery capacity in the UK.
Mike Schooling at Indra seems to be the man to speak to he's very active online with trying to help people with old EVs which are out of warranty.
Thanks for the tip, hopefully he's also able to convert old batteries into home storage.Mike Schooling at Indra seems to be the man to speak to he's very active online with trying to help people with old EVs which are out of warranty.
Heres Johnny said:
Plug Life said:
CJN said:
I think the battery degradation may be worse than reported by Tesla. During recent extreme weather events in the US I read that Tesla 'opened up ' additional battery capacity for their cars in the affected region to allow owners to escapee the storms safely.
Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
LOL Yipper has some competition!Perhaps all Teslas have the same capacity battery but you pay for access to 65, 70, 90 , 100kwh. If your 65kwh car drops capacity to 50kwh in 10 years had it really lost 50% capacity i.e rrom 100kwh to 50kwh?
Plug life - Tesla sold for a while a version of their cars with a software locked limit on the battery, the owners could pay anytime they wanted to unlock the extra capacity. In a way it's no different to a petrol engined car having different power outputs based on nothing but code and sold at different prices, only if in that case you couldn't get the manufacturer to release the extra, you'd have to go somewhere to get the car remapped. Anyway, back to the story, during the freak weather, Tesla, for nothing, released this extra capacity to allow the owners to increase their range and help alleviate the problem of getting away, a bit like BMW sending out a software update, over the air, to say "your petrol tank is now 3 gallons bigger".
What that has to do with battery degradation is way beyond my comprehension, its a bit like saying a car with a bigger petrol tank has worse fuel economy.
Saab used to sell several variants of their 2 litre turbo with identical components, just software limited for emissions/tax reasons.
The likes of IBM,HP and Oracle have sold enterprise computing equipment with deactivated cores which can later be enabled simply by purchasing additional licenses...
Max_Torque said:
Jag_luvver said:
but based on my experience of batteries I'd still rate the probably longevity of an ICE above batteries.
Can you explain the difference between a battery designed to last 10 years / 150k miles and an engine designed to last 10 years / 150k miles ?My (admittedly limited) experience of car ownership has always started with cars around 10 years old, and at no point has the engine (or any part of it) needed replacing. I don't believe this is a particularly unusual ownership experience. In comparison, the few people I've know who had early hybrids had to replace their batteries after 5 years or so, and I don't know about full electric longevity because they're relatively new so are still building up data, but I doubt there will be as many electric cars on their original batteries in 15 years time compared to ICE vehicles with their original engines.
I think battery tech is a lot more reliable than my perception of it is (see earlier comment r.e. mobile/laptop experience), but I'd not be willing to take the plunge on a 10yr old Tesla with an original battery that could cost £10k to replace, until there's sufficient history to suggest that 15-20yrs of usage is fine for the original battery. Ultimately, it's my perception that's the problem, and this is all based on speculation so time will tell what's right!
Jag_luvver said:
My (admittedly limited) experience of car ownership has always started with cars around 10 years old, and at no point has the engine (or any part of it) needed replacing.
None of it? No timing belt, no clutch, no spark plugs, alternators, filters or oil? Even a lot of old TDi has seen a turbo or injector change. But you're adament that a 10yr old car is a trouble-free prospect?No.
And an early hybrid needing a battery change? Unlikely that it happened within 5 years (which is warranty on Toyota) and even then mk1 and mk2 Prius' batteries can be sorted for under a grand.
Edited by Evanivitch on Thursday 18th January 22:26
Jag_luvver said:
I think battery tech is a lot more reliable than my perception of it is (see earlier comment r.e. mobile/laptop experience), but I'd not be willing to take the plunge on a 10yr old Tesla
Given the oldest Tesla in the UK is not even 4 years old you have a long time to wait anyways .Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff