Tesla. New vs used?

[Biggles111]

I took up the chance of a Tesla test drive yesterday, and at last drove an S100D. There was also an X there, which I looked around, sat in, but did not drive. Overall impression of the S was that although a large car it packs a real punch, has brakes to match, and flows well down winding roads. Negatives for me were slightly uneven panel gaps around the boot, and poor Alcantara trim around an air vent or speaker. I took a colleague, who also loved it but was not a smooth driver and managed to make me feel pretty car sick, not something I have suffered as an adult before!

The X was frankly pretty cool and is so unlike anything else that it appears to have arrived on one of Elon’s space ships. Quite bulky in appearance, but airy and light inside thanks to the high front screen.

The sales guys were great, and petrol heads to boot. Full credit to Tesla for getting really enthusiastic and knowledgable people on board.

Obviously Tesla want to shift new units, and their finance deals are interesting, albeit the headline price is rather more than I have ever considered spending.

Has anyone here bought a used CPO Tesla? Tesla seem to hide the used stock, and then talk it down in terms of the earlier models being a bit less well made. Is for example an older P85D at say 48k worth buying, or are the later post facelift cars that much better?

[gangzoom]

Depends on your budget and what you want from the car.

Clearly used Tesla is cheaper, am talking about as a cash buy. However early 2014 cars had ALOT more quality issues than later cars - I would avoid any pre autopilot 1.0 cars as Tesla did improve build quality when introducing Autopilot. The other big difference is Autopilot hardware. Some early UK cars don't have it, but most should have Autopilot 1.0, than in Oct 2016 Tesla introduced Autopilot 2.0 hardware, which it self got updated to 2.5 in August 2017. For acutal Autopilot functions they all work the same at present but at somepoint the 2.0/2.5 car will be more 'autonomous'.

The preowned market on the X is also virtually non existent depsite the cars now been on sale in the UK for 12 months. I normally only buy used but because we really wanted a X had to go down the new route. Ignore the media hype about the X been a £150k+ car (Grand tour), ours cost less than half that and still sprints to 60 in under 5 seconds, apart from 40-50 miles less range is otherwise identical to the £150k version!!

The preowned market on the S is bigger and worth getting a Tesla supplied car as your get a new 4 year warranty (but some older used cars now only come with 2 years).

Buying new is obviously the best options in terms of getting the 'best' car. The 100D cars really are the best cars Tesla have ever made - but you pay more for it. I assume you also know about the referral code - all owners can supply you with one, it gets you £375 of credit and free supercharging on the car.

I've had our Tesla for coming up to 12 months now, its the first brand new car I have ever owned. It was the cheapest X Tesla sells but still more than TRIPLE the price of what I paid for a 2 year old 335i. I'm tight with my money, so you can imgaine my pain everytime I think about deprecation....BUT I absolutely love the car and been a former petrol head I cannot think of another car on the market that fulfils my needs better, nursery taxi, work commute, family huller, but also enough pace to scare my self on an empty B road .

Action though speaks louder than words, in the summer last year our old X got written off in a non fault accident. I was offered a cheque £4k MORE than what we paid for the car as Tesla had discontinued our version and put up prices. I could have taken the cash and run, which is what my logical side of the brain was screaming- £4k profit for 4 months of ownership is damn good. But instead I ponied up another £4k to get my self into another replacement new X!!!



The thought of having to go back to driving a normal car was simply an unacceptable option for me, regardless of finacial benefits - Trust me for any other car i would have taken the money in a heart beat. But the X really is a one of a kind car.

Biggles111 said:

Is for example an older P85D at say 48k worth buying, or are the later post facelift cars that much better?

If I didn't need the people carrying ability of the X I would go for a used AP 1.0 Hardware P85D Model S. It has more than enough speed for public roads and is less than half the price of a new P100D. A prefacelift P85D in white still looks aweason in the flesh.

Happy car hunting!!!

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 17th February 04:52

[Heres Johnny]

Tesla staff can be a mixed experience, generally enthusiastic but aren’t always accurate with their knowledge sadly, but then Musk tends to get carried away with his timescales. Don’t let that detract you, but if you hear something surprising or something you need to rely on, it’s worth double checking with someone else, just in case!

Inventory is often held back, but there are a number of sites that show you more inventory than you see on the Tesla web site, this often includes new inventory, my favourite is

http://savemylegs.com/tesla/forsale.html

..which also lists cars from autotrader etc. It also happens to be the site I own!

Buying used from Tesla does reset the warranty if below 50k miles, but it’s whether you want to pay the premium. The bigger issues for me buying outside Tesla is the lack of knowledge from most dealers who also tend to price cars stupidly (on my site you can click on a car and see how long it’s been for sale, some have been around over 6 months) and from Tesla you have to buy blind as it’s very unusual to actually see the car before you buy (you also have to wait up to 4 weeks for delivery). My advice is compare prices and a 1 year old low mileage used car away from Tesla can be a bargain

Panel gaps and fit and finish are a general Tesla issue, within reason they’ll fix them, panel gaps you can’t really fix, door or trim alignment you can, and Tesla are generally good without quibble. Whether they’d do that on a 3 year old car bought privately is probably less certain.

Some examples of things to watch, there are more on my web site, the battery size aisn’t always the real battery size, a 90 isn’t 15kwh more than a 75: it’s more only 7 more, and while the 0-60 look similar, because the 90 has a higher voltage it is quicker, over a wider spread of speed and more repeatable, charging is also slightly quicker. It’s often small detail and rarely significant (to an extent it’s like debating where a BMW N54 engine is better than the N55, or finding out a 340 really only has a 3 litre engine) but the odd stat might matter to you.

If you go MS route, the key choices are facelift or not, original auto pilot or the later version, and which battery. Pre facelift are coming down in price and you can get P90D low 60k which will be fast, the facelift have a few better features and the current look, and AutoPilot is point we could debate for days, but the original version is rock solid but it’s not going to do any more than it current does, the newer version from late 2016 and distinguishable by the cameras in side indicators is more or less comparable (AP1 still has more about iit like showing vehicles in other lanes, differentiating between lorry’s and motorbikes etc) but should develop further. The later AutoPilot cars are usually at a significant price premium.

Used, I’d say a facelift AP1 car is a good compromise, probably on a 16 or 66 plate, 30 months warranty left..but thats just my view. Something like this, although it’s got no options in it...(dealer is unknown to me)

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Or for a bit more a fair bit higher spec with AP activated etc

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

EAP would cost 10k more like this one..

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

To help give you advice it would be good to know whether range is important to you (as in some parts of the country charger coverage isn’t great), if performances matters (4s to 60 doesn’t mean it’s a rocket ship at 70mph), tech, if finance matters (the new cars have good deals but you’re paying more to start) etc..

Edited by Heres Johnny on Saturday 17th February 06:13

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

the battery size aisn’t always the real battery size, a 90 isn’t 15kwh more than a 75: it’s more only 7 more

Personally I woudlnt touch a 90/early 75 pack car interms of buying to keep longterm. 90 pack owners have always moaned about not having much more range than equivalent 75/85 and 90 packs are the only ones where Tesla throttle supercharging rates after X charges.

It now seems that Tesla used an inferior battery chemistry in the 90/early 75 packs compared to the original 85 and current 75/100 packs, and the 90 packs have nearly twice the degredation rate of 85 packs. Infact at 50k a 90 pack already has less usable charge than a 85 pack of same millage!!!

The chap who has uncovered this is probably the most skilled Tesla modder on the planet, and owns multiples Teslas so unlikely to be making his data up. I suspect he will do a formal writeup of his data soon but currently is probably fending off the lawyers Tesla no doubt have sent over to his house!!

If buying used I would stick the 85 cars as they are proven to last, or go for a newer 75 and if money no issues ofcourse the 100 pack.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/early-75-7...

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 17th February 07:03

[Heres Johnny]

gangzoom said:

Heres Johnny said:

the battery size aisn’t always the real battery size, a 90 isn’t 15kwh more than a 75: it’s more only 7 more

Personally I woudlnt touch a 90/early 75 pack car interms of buying to keep longterm. 90 pack owners have always moaned about not having much more range than equivalent 75/85 and 90 packs are the only ones where Tesla throttle supercharging rates after X charges.

It now seems that Tesla used an inferior battery chemistry in the 90/early 75 packs compared to the original 85 and current 75/100 packs, and the 90 packs have nearly twice the degredation rate of 85 packs. Infact at 50k a 90 pack already has less usable charge than a 85 pack of same millage!!!

The chap who has uncovered this is probably the most skilled Tesla modder on the planet, and owns multiples Teslas so unlikely to be making his data up. I suspect he will do a formal writeup of his data soon but currently is probably fending off the lawyers Tesla no doubt have sent over to his house!!

If buying used I would stick the 85 cars as they are proven to last, or go for a newer 75 and if money no issues ofcourse the 100 pack.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/early-75-7...

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 17th February 07:03

I ran a 90D for well over 30k miles and it lost virtually none of its range, I'm running a P90DL now and its fine. You make it out like the thing is falling apart whereas its some are experiencing slightly higher losses.

The advantage of a 90 over an 85 is not just about whether the it can hold a few more miles or not, the 90 gives up more current and therefore is a little quicker. My 90D pre face lift was timed at well under under 4s to 60, its a mighty battery, it depends on what you want.



The battery is warrantied for 8 years and unlimited mileage and while Tesla don't quote an acceptable loss, the battery will never become unusable, far from it..

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

You make it out like the thing is falling apart whereas its some are experiencing slightly higher losses.

Am not making out anything but Wk057 probably knows more about Tesla batteries than everyone outside Tesla put together.

When he uncovered the imment arrival of the AWD cars Tesla tired to lock him out of his remotely and than Musk had to do a public U turn on Twitter to back track.

You might be happy to accept higher degradation (especially if you can afford to change cars every 2-3 years) but the OP might not. The 85 packs are showing around 10% loss around 100K. If Wk057 data shows the 90 packs are going to be around 15-20% thats a massive increase in degredation.

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 17th February 07:35

[Heres Johnny]

gangzoom said:

Am not making out anything but Wk057 probably knows more about Tesla batteries than everyone outside Tesla put together.

When he uncovered the imment arrival of the AWD cars Tesla tired to lock him out of his remotely and than Musk had to do a public U turn on Twitter to back track.

You might be happy to accept higher degradation (especially if you can afford to change cars every 2-3 years) but the OP might not. The 85 packs are showing around 10% loss around 100K. If Wk057 data shows the 90 packs are going to be around 15-20% thats a massive increase in degredation.

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 17th February 07:35

The extra 5% degradation just cancels out the extra 5% in range the 90 came with. I know wk57 and what he’s done, and I’ve been very critical of Tesla on that thread around Teslas testing of the 90 and the way they missold it at the time but that doesn’t apply if you’re buying used.

We get all stressed about this but I did 80k miles in 3 years in my last ICE and the engine was not the same at the end, emissions were higher, fuel economy down, power down, it’s unreasonable to expect nothing is going to happen. A fully charged 90D has about 260 typical miles range, in practice maybe 230, lose 15% after 100k miles and if your only issue is the range is down to 200 useable miles it’s not really an issue.

If the OP was looking at a new inventory 90D or 100D for a couple of grand extra, I’d say get the 100D every time, primarily because a 100 is 20% bigger than a 90.

[Biggles111]

gangzoom said:

If I didn't need the people carrying ability of the X I would go for a used AP 1.0 Hardware P85D Model S. It has more than enough speed for public roads and is less than half the price of a new P100D. A prefacelift P85D in white still looks aweason in the flesh.

Happy car hunting!!!

Thanks gangzoom, I have been following some of your threads, good content thanks.

How is the real world range on your X? We have a Leaf for round town, so
I am familiar with range anxiety on longer trips. Even though one may not run out having some spare when it is cold, dark, and range is down is comforting!

Still undecided on S or X, I prefer the S styling, but we have 3 kids and I am used to just chucking everything in the back of my disco, some compromise needed but I suspect budget will be what decides for us!

[EddieSteadyGo]

Heres Johnny said:

Inventory is often held back, but there are a number of sites that show you more inventory than you see on the Tesla web site, this often includes new inventory, my favourite is

http://savemylegs.com/tesla/forsale.html

..which also lists cars from autotrader etc. It also happens to be the site I own!

That's a nice website idea.

[Biggles111]

Heres Johnny said:

To help give you advice it would be good to know whether range is important to you (as in some parts of the country charger coverage isn’t great), if performances matters (4s to 60 doesn’t mean it’s a rocket ship at 70mph), tech, if finance matters (the new cars have good deals but you’re paying more to start) etc..

Edited by Heres Johnny on Saturday 17th February 06:13

Thanks Jon. Yes, I have been on your site a few times, useful!

Range wise I would like a real world 240-250 miles, in order to be reasonably future proof and not having to divert too often. 100D would be great but is I think beyond my budget, so is a question of finding what is next best.

We are in the SW, and are about 15 miles from superchargers where I live and also at work. A bigger 'fuel tank' would enable me to use these to visit once or twice a week or so and power more of my normal journeys. We have a 7kw type 2 charger at home already, so that is not a bad starting point for other charging.

I like 'quick' but range is a higher priority, unless we are just trading 10-15 miles off. Tech wise I think things are moving so fast there will be something else in 3 years, so I want AP but am not so concerned as to whether it is AP1 or 2. I know Tesla give OTA updates, but they will still want to encourage people to trade up.

Finance wise, the sirens are calling me to blow it all on an X100D. Sensible head on (like most of us I am hesitant about taking a large amount of debt even if cheap on a depreciating asset - and having a year or two ago had a life threatening illness I wouldn't want to leave my wife to deal with a finance company) is saying borrow less or go full cash and buy either an S P85D, or S 75D. Tesla did have an S75 RWD up this week for around £50k, but it went off the site within 2 days. Nice problem to have though!

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

The extra 5% degradation just cancels out the extra 5% in range the 90 came with. I know wk57 and what he’s done, and I’ve been very critical of Tesla on that thread around Teslas testing of the 90 and the way they missold it at the time but that doesn’t apply if you’re buying used.

What wk57 seems to suggest is that a 90 pack with after 50K has LESS usable kWh than a 85 pack of the same age/millage. This absolutely matter if your buying used much more than someone buying new with a view of swapping every 2-3 years. The difference will be even greater when the packs reach 100K. In essence your paying more money for a 90 pack car but it will have less range than a 85 pack car, really not the way it should be.

He hasn't published the dataset yet, but I suspect when he does alot of 90 pack owner wouldn't be very happy. Speaking of personal experience the 90D X loaner I had for 4 months in which I covered 4K didnt seem to have much more usable range than my current 75D X. Tesla pushed things too far in the 90 packs and they need to be honest with owners.

[gangzoom]

Biggles111 said:

Thanks gangzoom, I have been following some of your threads, good content thanks.

How is the real world range on your X? We have a Leaf for round town, so
I am familiar with range anxiety on longer trips. Even though one may not run out having some spare when it is cold, dark, and range is down is comforting!

Still undecided on S or X, I prefer the S styling, but we have 3 kids and I am used to just chucking everything in the back of my disco, some compromise needed but I suspect budget will be what decides for us!

If you have kids to lugg around the X is fantastic, the rear doors work really well in real life and make loading small children really easy in otherwise tiny spaces. I do 90% of nursery drops offs, and am sure your understand how much easier life is when you can open the rear doors via the key, without having to put down the package/struggle with the doors when you get to the car



We actually had an Model S on order, but after sitting/driving in one of the first Xs in the country and comparing rear passenger space side to side against a S, for us we decided the extra cost of the X was worth it. I personally cannot see us parting with the X till the nest is empty - given our first is only 20 months old thats going to be a while!!


Range is a more simple issue - It really is simply how much £20K is worth to you. Ofcourse everyone wants more range, for alot of Tesla owner the price difference between a 75 - 100 is not an issue, in which case the 100 is a no brainer option. For us it was, we saved hard to afford the cheapest 60 kWh X which at the time was some £30K+ cheaper than the top the range 90 kWh battery - and that £30K for us was much better spent on the house than a car. We live in Leicester and 150 miles range is enough to see us cover all of frequent long trips, even our 60 kWh X managed Leicester to Cardiff non-stop in rain/single digit temps with 10% battery to spare.

I'll happily tackle a 150 miles trip in our current 75D X even in freezing temp with no worries or need to drive slow, 200 miles in current weather requires some 'eco' driving - no where near as bad as the Leaf. In summer I suspect 220-240 miles will be easily doable.

So ultimately only you can decided if the extra £££ for the 100kWh packs is worth it, but I have no doubt which ever car you get your love it .

[Heres Johnny]

Biggles111 said:

Thanks Jon. Yes, I have been on your site a few times, useful!

Range wise I would like a real world 240-250 miles, in order to be reasonably future proof and not having to divert too often. 100D would be great but is I think beyond my budget, so is a question of finding what is next best.

We are in the SW, and are about 15 miles from superchargers where I live and also at work. A bigger 'fuel tank' would enable me to use these to visit once or twice a week or so and power more of my normal journeys. We have a 7kw type 2 charger at home already, so that is not a bad starting point for other charging.

I like 'quick' but range is a higher priority, unless we are just trading 10-15 miles off. Tech wise I think things are moving so fast there will be something else in 3 years, so I want AP but am not so concerned as to whether it is AP1 or 2. I know Tesla give OTA updates, but they will still want to encourage people to trade up.

Finance wise, the sirens are calling me to blow it all on an X100D. Sensible head on (like most of us I am hesitant about taking a large amount of debt even if cheap on a depreciating asset - and having a year or two ago had a life threatening illness I wouldn't want to leave my wife to deal with a finance company) is saying borrow less or go full cash and buy either an S P85D, or S 75D. Tesla did have an S75 RWD up this week for around £50k, but it went off the site within 2 days. Nice problem to have though!

You’ll not get 240 miles out of anything other than a 100 battery the way you plan to drive, you might get 240 out of a 90D in one go, conditions would need to be perfect to get that out of a 75, but it’s relatively peanuts to charge at home so trying to super charge once a week and do nothing in between isn’t really the way to go. As an aside, P cars range will be down by 5-10% on the figures above and larger wheels the same again, a P90D on 21” wheels is about 15% down in total against a 90D on 19”. X tend to be a further 10% down.

I personally think buying used helps avoid the worst depreciation, new is good if you want the finance or you’re putting it into your company for tax benefits, whereas pre March 17 cars will have unlimited supercharging that stays with the car, after then the unlimited supercharging stops when the car changes hands, it has zero VED, after then it’s £310 a year, if you buy from Tesla you’ll get a fresh 4 year warranty unless the cars over 50k miles.

I could push you to new in the hope you’d use my referral but I’m not.

[Biggles111]

Heres Johnny said:

You’ll not get 240 miles out of anything other than a 100 battery the way you plan to drive, you might get 240 out of a 90D in one go, conditions would need to be perfect to get that out of a 75, but it’s relatively peanuts to charge at home so trying to super charge once a week and do nothing in between isn’t really the way to go. As an aside, P cars range will be down by 5-10% on the figures above and larger wheels the same again, a P90D on 21” wheels is about 15% down in total against a 90D on 19”. X tend to be a further 10% down.

I personally think buying used helps avoid the worst depreciation, new is good if you want the finance or you’re putting it into your company for tax benefits, whereas pre March 17 cars will have unlimited supercharging that stays with the car, after then the unlimited supercharging stops when the car changes hands, it has zero VED, after then it’s £310 a year, if you buy from Tesla you’ll get a fresh 4 year warranty unless the cars over 50k miles.

I could push you to new in the hope you’d use my referral but I’m not.

Thanks Jon, good advice. Your website is interesting, some AUC cars seem to have been in stock at Tesla for 9 months. In a normal world these would find their own level, the lack of transparency on pricing and risk of paying well over actual value is a bit of a concern. Hoping to talk to an AUC person next week...

[Heres Johnny]

Biggles111 said:

Thanks Jon, good advice. Your website is interesting, some AUC cars seem to have been in stock at Tesla for 9 months. In a normal world these would find their own level, the lack of transparency on pricing and risk of paying well over actual value is a bit of a concern. Hoping to talk to an AUC person next week...

It’s one of the reasons I created the site as I was looking to replace my first can and wanted to understand the market. Tesla owned cars may have been used as loan cars and because they don’t advertise many of them on their website, it’s hard to see how they’d ever be sold. I’ve various ways to get a longer listing than Tesla display hence why I show more.

If you’re looking outside Tesla I’d recommend Richard Symons down south, up north others talk about Cleve, but if you see a used car that takes your fancy I’d happily pass comment on it.

[arfursleep]

Biggles111 said:

Thanks Jon, good advice. Your website is interesting, some AUC cars seem to have been in stock at Tesla for 9 months. In a normal world these would find their own level, the lack of transparency on pricing and risk of paying well over actual value is a bit of a concern. Hoping to talk to an AUC person next week...

Just ordered a new S75D, and looked at whether to take a used vehicle or a new stock vehicle over a new order.

I noted with interest that the dealer was able to find cars "in stock" that didn't show as in stock on the Tesla website or elsewhere - i assume that these were pipeline stock from cancelled orders or produced for service / showroom cars, they never answered that question, so it might be worth asking a dealer.

Used cars didn't make as much sense as I wanted a latest spec vehicle (AP2 etc) and some would have been more expensive overall than a new car due to tax incentives as it'll be a company car.

Nothing matched my spec (or budget) from the new stock so I plumped for a new order. And now have to wait until May for the car...

[Heres Johnny]

arfursleep said:

Just ordered a new S75D, and looked at whether to take a used vehicle or a new stock vehicle over a new order.

I noted with interest that the dealer was able to find cars "in stock" that didn't show as in stock on the Tesla website or elsewhere - i assume that these were pipeline stock from cancelled orders or produced for service / showroom cars, they never answered that question, so it might be worth asking a dealer.

Used cars didn't make as much sense as I wanted a latest spec vehicle (AP2 etc) and some would have been more expensive overall than a new car due to tax incentives as it'll be a company car.

Nothing matched my spec (or budget) from the new stock so I plumped for a new order. And now have to wait until May for the car...

Depends what you mean by elsewhere - I've typically got 50-70 cars more than Tesla show on their public site and the other inventory sites. Tesla will by definition see their internal stock before anyone else as I can only get it when its listed, but the car details web page they show you in store is the same I link to. Tesla seem to make our cars in a block and if there are spares not accounted for they just spec them and ship them. There are 26 2018 built cars waiting as of today, 16 of them 75D, and thats before we look at 2017 inventory, so you could have been in a car without the wait

They're all here
http://www.savemylegs.com/tesla/forsale.html

Enjoy it when you get it

[qube_TA]

Heres Johnny said:

I ran a 90D for well over 30k miles and it lost virtually none of its range, I'm running a P90DL now and its fine. You make it out like the thing is falling apart whereas its some are experiencing slightly higher losses.

The advantage of a 90 over an 85 is not just about whether the it can hold a few more miles or not, the 90 gives up more current and therefore is a little quicker. My 90D pre face lift was timed at well under under 4s to 60, its a mighty battery, it depends on what you want.



The battery is warrantied for 8 years and unlimited mileage and while Tesla don't quote an acceptable loss, the battery will never become unusable, far from it..

The 8 years is the thing that puts me off buying one of these (and similar); whilst it might have some capacity after 8 years it's going to be considerably lower than what it was, an 8 year old laptop is going to be permanently plugged into the wall. A replacement battery pack will cost similar to replacing a whole engine and that's presumably if one is still available, if not you're not going to be able to go n find one from a scapper. The batteries will degrade whether you use the car or not so unless there's an aftermarket for replacement batteries (which might be a bit of a deathtrap) then a used EV car, unless it's had a new set of batteries fitted isn't going to be very attractive. I've seen quite a few Teslas around now and got to drive one once and was really impressed with it, but as I tend to keep cars a few years they won't either a) be unusual or b) exist so don't want to risk taking the plunge with one and end up with something I'm stuck with.

[Plug Life]

qube_TA said:

The 8 years is the thing that puts me off buying one of these (and similar); whilst it might have some capacity after 8 years it's going to be considerably lower than what it was, an 8 year old laptop is going to be permanently plugged into the wall. A replacement battery pack will cost similar to replacing a whole engine and that's presumably if one is still available, if not you're not going to be able to go n find one from a scapper. The batteries will degrade whether you use the car or not so unless there's an aftermarket for replacement batteries (which might be a bit of a deathtrap) then a used EV car, unless it's had a new set of batteries fitted isn't going to be very attractive. I've seen quite a few Teslas around now and got to drive one once and was really impressed with it, but as I tend to keep cars a few years they won't either a) be unusual or b) exist so don't want to risk taking the plunge with one and end up with something I'm stuck with.

Unlike the 8 y/o laptop the Tesla battery pack has thermal management, sophisticated charge management and special chemistry so the degradation will be nowhere near to a plain laptop or mobile phone battery.

[gangzoom]

qube_TA said:

The 8 years is the thing that puts me off buying one of these (and similar); whilst it might have some capacity after 8 years it's going to be considerably lower than what it was, an 8 year old laptop is going to be permanently plugged into the wall. A replacement battery pack will cost similar to replacing a whole engine and that's presumably if one is still available, if not you're not going to be able to go n find one from a scapper. The batteries will degrade whether you use the car or not

The battery packs in current EVs cannot be compared to mobile phone/laptop batteries in any way. Even with no active thermal management 2011 Nissan Leaf packs are still holding >70% charge, and those packs have far worse degradation than any Tesla pack.

There is also no real world data to suggest time has any significant impact on EV batteries.

The two graphs below demonstrate the vast difference between consumer electronic batteries and those used in EVs.

This is the performance of an 'off the shelf' Panasonic lithium ion cell, after 500 recharge cycles the performance is only at 70% of new, which is what most of us are use to with phones/laptops - a couple of years of use (1 charge a day) and the battery life is noticeably shorter.


Compare that to the performance of a Tesla Panasonic cell, even after 3000 cycles the cell is still holding 80% charge!! Bare in mind unless you are doing 200 miles a day, certainly Tesla packs will only go through the equivalent of a full charge cycle once a week (base don 200 miles a week millage), which equates to 52 years of use before performance drops to 80%!!!!.



http://chargedplanes.com/innovative-features-tesla...

The reality is certainly for Tesla cars, the battery packs are going to out last the rest of the car, the only reason I can see of replacing a pack would be to 'upgrade' to a larger pack - which may or may not be an economical option in future. But I highly doubt anyone would be replacing a Tesla pack due to degradation even in 2030. The Tesla roadster has been on the road since 2008, given how many people love shorting Tesla, am 100% sure if roadster packs were falling apart now it would be all over the motoring press as an example why EVs just don't work, the fact there is no news on roadster pack failures says a lot.

Having said that past performance doesn't equal future guarantee, the battery pack life of EV have surpassed the expectation of the manufactures, so as an results packs are now getting denser/exposed to higher discharge/recharge rates. What impact increasing charge density/pack drain will have on degradation is still an unknown. The original 85kWh Model S pack is solid, I would have no issues buying a 2014 UK Model S with an view of keeping it for 5-10 years, however the newer 75/90/100 packs have not been proven yet, and there is no guarantee they are as resilient as the older 85 pack when it comes to degradation. Telsa are not open/honest about how they are changing the cell chemistry, and not always for better- they don't need to be as most people don't care, but for buying used degradation is a key factor - actually I would say the most important factor. The next few years will give everyone more real life data on the newer packs/cars.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 20th February 20:12