Tesla X or Range Rover Sport ???

[PinkFatBunny]

So time for a new family car. Looking at Tesla X 100D or a Range Rover Sport 3.0d
Range Rover - should be a safe bet, proper all-wheel drive, decent space and new ones look great. downside is it'll be the 3litre diesel so not the most fun to drive.

Tesla X - love the 6 seat configuration, saves me £250/month on fuel, should be easier sticking a toddler and baby in due to falcon doors, quick-ish car 0-62 4.6 secs. plus its something a bit different.

Cost wise they are around the same even though the Tesla is £105k compared to £78k RRS as can stick the Telsa through the company.
Anyone been in a similar position or own a Tesla X ....love it?? hate it??
Discovery is out as although a big improvement the interior isn't great for the money.

[syl]

I got the Range Rover Sport last year and love it. Much better interior than the Tesla. Better driving position too. Would have liked the 575hp 5.0 SVR petrol, but settled for the 3.0 diesel in autobiography trim and its 306hp is absolutely fine. If I was buying now I would consider the new PHEV, though wish it had a 3.0 diesel rather than 2.0 petrol alongside the electric motor.

[PinkFatBunny]

Yes forgot to mention the higher driving position, loved that in the Discovery.
SVR is an option, just not a very sensible one as this will mainly be wife's car and it'll be a hard sell with the noise and attention they get.

[Heres Johnny]

I guess you'll get MX owners saying buy one just as you'll get RR buyers saying buy the other. Its personal choice..

I don't know why you think its cheaper if you stick a Tesla through the company - the 100% FYA is only cash flow as you pay it back when you come to sell and BIK is 13% and then 16% which probably equates to 6k and 8k just in tax.

MX is in relatively short supply, and the 75D while adequate in the MS is more marginal in the MX, I think in the future the smart money will be the 100D and the 75D will be over supplied (lots of leases being thrown back onto the market as their owners went for the entry level) and less desirable as the winter range starts to tell (you're down to 150-175 miles in winter in the 75),.Its my guess, so on that front a 100D is the smart one in the range for depreciation although you could still expect to pay out 40-50% over 3 years.

The MX is quite high though, and the visibility is something else. Auto pilot makes long distance driving easier, but then you are into the world of quirks and software updates. Its like the technical equivalent of buying an italian car - its not perfect, but if you enjoy the "character" that brings, its great, if you don't then it would be a strain.

[PinkFatBunny]

BIK drops to 2% into 2019 then hopefully 0% given all the bad press about diesels after that :-)
Car will be leased, so with the write offs and less the fuel expenses works out roughly, very roughly to be 800/month for the Tesla X 100D. Accountant confirming this week.

[red_slr]

What deposit are you putting in to get 800pcm?

[gangzoom]

Cannot comment on Tax stuff or Range Rover, don't earn enough to warrant an accountant and never felt the need/want for a Range Rover .

I've had our 75DX now for 14 months and I have to say the utility of the thing is unbelievable. 6 seater config is just amazing, 5 adults 300 miles round trip in rush our in 1 day, not one complaint. Weekend trip to in-laws, enough space to bring back a full single bed+mattress and still have space for the baby seat.

The doors also work exactly as described, if you have small children to handle they are simply unbeatable.

The speed of even our 75D X is mad for a car this big, but actually I find it very easy to park/position due to the driving position. I've done 18K in the first 12 months of ownership,the car the X replaced did 14K in 24months, that in it self tells you how much I love driving ours. There is honestly no other family car I rather own.....well expect a P100D L X, but far too cheap to ever buy one of those!!

If you end up buying am sure you know about the referral code: All current Tesla owners can give you their's, it gets you £375 off the price but more important 'free supercharging' for the life of the car whilst you own it.

I see lots of new RangeRovers when I do the nursery run, I have to say compared to the X even a brand new Velar decked out in fancy wheels/trim just look hopeless out of date.....especially when the tractor engine rattles into life

[Heres Johnny]

PinkFatBunny said:

BIK drops to 2% into 2019 then hopefully 0% given all the bad press about diesels after that :-)
Car will be leased, so with the write offs and less the fuel expenses works out roughly, very roughly to be 800/month for the Tesla X 100D. Accountant confirming this week.

2020 not 2019 - you've the best part of two years at sky high rates

[Heres Johnny]

gangzoom said:

If you end up buying am sure you know about the referral code: All current Tesla owners can give you their's, it gets you £375 off the price but more important 'free supercharging' for the life of the car whilst you own it.

That deal has ended, you now only get free super charging

[PinkFatBunny]

gangzoom said:

Cannot comment on Tax stuff or Range Rover, don't earn enough to warrant an accountant and never felt the need/want for a Range Rover .

I've had our 75DX now for 14 months and I have to say the utility of the thing is unbelievable. 6 seater config is just amazing, 5 adults 300 miles round trip in rush our in 1 day, not one complaint. Weekend trip to in-laws, enough space to bring back a full single bed+mattress and still have space for the baby seat.

The doors also work exactly as described, if you have small children to handle they are simply unbeatable.

The speed of even our 75D X is mad for a car this big, but actually I find it very easy to park/position due to the driving position. I've done 18K in the first 12 months of ownership,the car the X replaced did 14K in 24months, that in it self tells you how much I love driving ours. There is honestly no other family car I rather own.....well expect a P100D L X, but far too cheap to ever buy one of those!!

If you end up buying am sure you know about the referral code: All current Tesla owners can give you their's, it gets you £375 off the price but more important 'free supercharging' for the life of the car whilst you own it.

I see lots of new RangeRovers when I do the nursery run, I have to say compared to the X even a brand new Velar decked out in fancy wheels/trim just look hopeless out of date.....especially when the tractor engine rattles into life

It’s the 6 seat config that is the big appeal if I’m honest. In my head I’m thinking, shopping, two screaming kids, bad weather ...which car is going to be less painful to load/unload!?

[Bee_Jay]

As someone who has owned both full fat RR and Model X (currently in P100DL) I have one question for you:

Have you driven the Tesla?

[ntiz]

I would say of the two choose the Tesla.

But I would ask how would you be intending to use the car and what sort of person are you?

That probably sounds odd but if you are an impatient person who does lots of long distant miles you may want to consider how fine you are with having to stop and charge, not be able to take certain routes etc.

If you are mostly going to be charging at home driving around relatively close to home absolutely no brainer especially as a company car.

P.s the new sport does look awesome.

[gangzoom]

PinkFatBunny said:

It’s the 6 seat config that is the big appeal if I’m honest. In my head I’m thinking, shopping, two screaming kids, bad weather ...which car is going to be less painful to load/unload!?

Unloading/loading is really easy, its amazing how quickly you get use to powered doors!!

The rear doors also make a great umbrella in the rain and don't forget kids love the rear 3rd row, back there they might as well be in a different car and can scream as much as they want .

For me though its still the sheer load carrying ability that amazes me. Even with the 3rd row of seats up there is enough boot space for a full sized suitcase, carryon, travel cot, some play mats (why not??), and room to spare. Not forgetting the spare space in the frunk!!

One question, whats it like going fron one kid to two? Is giving one sprog a sibling worth going through all the teething/lack of sleep etc??

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

2020 not 2019 - you've the best part of two years at sky high rates

How does all this tax stuff on EVs suppose to work?? By the time we have got our 3 we would have given Tesla a six figure wedge of our post tax cash .

I do feel like am missing a trick when I see this talk about tax rates for EVs etc?

[Heres Johnny]

gangzoom said:

Heres Johnny said:

2020 not 2019 - you've the best part of two years at sky high rates

How does all this tax stuff on EVs suppose to work?? By the time we have got our 3 we would have given Tesla a six figure wedge of our post tax cash .

I do feel like am missing a trick when I see this talk about tax rates for EVs etc?

You need to have the ability to have a company car - if you're employed then that is typically through salary sacrifice (even those entitled to company cars tend to now just have a flex fund of benefits and amounts tot he same thing), and you usually have to use the companies car provider - rates can be quite high and so it can be marginal. My first 90D was this way and they wanted £1500 a month - this was out my gross salaru and included everything - insurance, servicing, tyres, etc but still not cheap.

If you have your own company or more flexibility, you can just buy the car through that, you can depreciate the car each year, pay for certain costs all through your company pre tax. Sounds great. The claw back is you pay a benefit in kind as an employee for having access to the company asset. This is currently a % of the list price, and 13% this year and 16% next year.

While the costs of the car are all before tax they sound cheap, but financially your tax code is clobbered by this % so on a 100k Tesla you're being effectively taxed on an extra 13k as if you earnt it on top of your salary, and next year 16k. In effect they're saying the company car is equivalent to extra pay - a payment in kind - therefore a benefit in kind.

I think its really marginal on Teslas at the moment on the numbers, everyone will construe the numbers to suit themselves, but I bought a a year old P100DL when I left my last employer, that car listed at 110k but I paid 35k less than that, and depreciation is now quite slow - for me putting it in my company would have meant paying tax on 13% of 110k (call it 15k) rather than what I paid. Others will justify it int he company - everyone is slightly different.

Where it becomes a lot more interesting is in April 2020 when the rate falls to 2%. - even my current car with a 110k list will then only be a £2k benefit in kind and so cost £100 a month if I transferred the car to the company, and all associated costs then become pre tax including depreciation.

Finally, the tax man isn't stupid and has introduced a thing to stop salary sacrifice being a tax perk - ie the BIK is the real cost of the perk. This applies to cars where the employee has choice, so in the situation where you have to take a company car for work purposes, then the rates apply, but if its not obligatory the real benefit trumps the table. This currently doesn't apply to EVs - I have a hunch it will by the time 2020 comes.

One other thing you hear about is the 100% FYA or first year allowance. This got a lot of people excited especially when the BMW i8 came out - it basically meant you could write the value of the car down to zero in the first year - so the whole purchase of the car came out of pre tax income for many thats about 40% off. Too good to be true... ? Yes.. when you came to sell the car, the value of the car was all taxable profit - over time you only ever get the tax relief of the depreciation although it can help with cash flow.

[gangzoom]

^ Thanks for that. Lost me by the 3rd line!!!

Looks like ill still be getting our cars the old fashioned way....the tax people must love people like me.

[EddieSteadyGo]

Heres Johnny said:

One other thing you hear about is the 100% FYA or first year allowance. This got a lot of people excited especially when the BMW i8 came out - it basically meant you could write the value of the car down to zero in the first year - so the whole purchase of the car came out of pre tax income for many thats about 40% off. Too good to be true... ? Yes.. when you came to sell the car, the value of the car was all taxable profit - over time you only ever get the tax relief of the depreciation although it can help with cash flow.

When you say you only get tax relief on the depreciation, that can actually be worth quite a lot. Not so much just at the moment I agree as you would have large BIK costs to account for, but the marginal tax rate is actually just over 51% assuming a higher rate tax payer when you combine together the corporation tax and higher rate dividend percentages.

So if a car depreciates from £100k to £50k then effectively over half the depreciation is paid for by a tax saving. Assuming this allowance is still in place come 2020, I think it will create a mini-boom in high value EVs.

[PinkFatBunny]

Bee_Jay said:

As someone who has owned both full fat RR and Model X (currently in P100DL) I have one question for you:

Have you driven the Tesla?

Yep driven one. Not too much in the way of feel through the steering. The ride was ok for the larger wheels. The slow to mid speed pick up is quicker than you think due to the lack of engine noise.
Only downside is lack of 360 cameras for parking or pulling out of blind junctions.

[PinkFatBunny]

gangzoom said:

Unloading/loading is really easy, its amazing how quickly you get use to powered doors!!

The rear doors also make a great umbrella in the rain and don't forget kids love the rear 3rd row, back there they might as well be in a different car and can scream as much as they want .

For me though its still the sheer load carrying ability that amazes me. Even with the 3rd row of seats up there is enough boot space for a full sized suitcase, carryon, travel cot, some play mats (why not??), and room to spare. Not forgetting the spare space in the frunk!!

One question, whats it like going fron one kid to two? Is giving one sprog a sibling worth going through all the teething/lack of sleep etc??

Adam Jnr isn't due til later this year ....trying to get a headstart on the car decision to allow for build times. I'm hoping the 18months of baby stuff will pay dividends when they play harmonelously with each other for the 10years after :-)

[oop north]

I am not quite sure what question is being asked anymore and I am not a fan of Tesla for various reasons - but I have made some recent calculations myself based on jag iPace HSE and Porsche Cayenne e hybrid (just launched model).

Firstly those are similar prices (whereas op’s comparison is of 100k leccy car through company against private 70k RRS - I have rounded the numbers) so my comparison may not be valid for op. The iPace works out cheaper than the Porsche by around £200 per month for me just on fuel (leccy through Co is tax free) and private iPace is currently about £100 per month more expensive than co iPace (that’s an average from this December, when my i3 goes back, to March 2020, the last month of 16% bik), accounting for income tax, corporation tax, national insurance, VAT. From April 2020 there is an additional £300 per month tax saving

For me I don’t think it would be worth putting the Porsche through the company - needs a better leccy only range to improve tax from April 2020. And it def wouldn’t be worth putting the RRS through the company.

I reckon lease / contract hire is probably better than buying outright though the company - the half the vat reclaim on contract hire is like getting an 8% discount on the car (10/120) that is probably better than any saving in corporation tax cash flow (also the 100% write down is only available on new vehicle not used). But I have not enjoyed having to decide the mileage to be contracted in advance and dislike having the fixed contract period. Though stopping spontenaity is probably cheaper for me

The April 2020 drop to 2% bik means that at that point for the first time it could be reasonable to have a used leccy car - the tax on a used car is based on new list price and makes used cars too expensive on tax now.

So for me I think that getting a leccy car in December makes some strong sense against say a new private Porsche Cayenne hybrid - though I would probably manage around 7,000 leccy miles on one of those. The cost of extras to get anywhere near iPace spec is a factor. I don’t realistically know how to value the time cost of charging a leccy car in the future - but we will probably keep the discovery as my wife’s car and use that for long distance driving holidays