Electric cars anomaly

Author
Discussion

Scootersp

Original Poster:

3,107 posts

187 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Why are there only at present seemingly the leafs I3's and Zoe's (for the green/cost conscious brigade) and then the luxury Tesla (and the odd BMW? - I'll admit I'm not up to date on all electric only cars) and not much in between?

Why no small sporty performance electric car? I mean this type of car in petrol form right now won't likely do massive trips ie need the range and will be used for short fun trips or low mile commutes possibly?

I have driven a electric go kart and that's it from a personal experience point of view but it was as fun as the petrol ones and you could feel the torque at the slower speeds, I just don't see how it wouldn't be quite popular, ie electric MX5 type thing.

Is it the design aspect or simply that no one thinks they'd sell?

Gad-Westy

14,521 posts

212 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Scootersp said:
Why are there only at present seemingly the leafs I3's and Zoe's (for the green/cost conscious brigade) and then the luxury Tesla (and the odd BMW? - I'll admit I'm not up to date on all electric only cars) and not much in between?

Why no small sporty performance electric car? I mean this type of car in petrol form right now won't likely do massive trips ie need the range and will be used for short fun trips or low mile commutes possibly?

I have driven a electric go kart and that's it from a personal experience point of view but it was as fun as the petrol ones and you could feel the torque at the slower speeds, I just don't see how it wouldn't be quite popular, ie electric MX5 type thing.

Is it the design aspect or simply that no one thinks they'd sell?
Suspect the latter. Low volume sales for (currently) very high development costs. There may be packaging issues as well since batteries need a fair bit of space. Don't think something mainstream along these lines will be far off though.

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
great question and one that also provides an opportunity to mention that battery electric vehicles are not merely a "green" purchase

there are features and benefits of these cars which, rightfully, appeal to everybody

and that's before we even touch upon the massive torque of the full-fat BEVs

but to answer the OP's question:

it's all about the batteries

cost: batteries and their management systems are not cheap
power density: batteries don't hold energy anywhere near the ability of petrol or LPG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energ...

over time, costs will decline, scale will rise, and we will find both keener pricing on the forecourt and more fully-optioned BEVs

if you're a tiny population with a colossal sovereign fund formed of oil wealth -- ie: Norway -- you can get round these things by enacting generous subsidies (along with steep financial disincentives for petrol vehicles), but most countries that subsidise do so only sparingly




Scrump

21,889 posts

157 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Original Tesla roadster
New Tesla Roadster
Morgan 3 wheeler EV

There will be others as the technology matures and becomes more accepted.
(There probably are others already beyond the 3 I listed)

captain_cynic

11,874 posts

94 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Scootersp said:
Why no small sporty performance electric car? I mean this type of car in petrol form right now won't likely do massive trips ie need the range and will be used for short fun trips or low mile commutes possibly?
The laws of physics.

There's a reason performance electric cars like RIMAC weigh almost 2 tonnes... Batteries. Even Li-ion and Li-Po need to be both big and heavy in order to supply enough power. The battery pack in a Model 3 is 540 KG, compare that to a tank of petrol which would weigh in at around 100 KG combined (tank, fuel pumps, all the fruit, the fuel itself will only weigh 77 KG).

Add to that the fact that the faster you go, the more energy you're using. Going electric doesn't get around that. At flat chat, A Tesla model 3 cannot complete the 14 mile Nurburgring. A Model 3 at full throttle is estimated to have an 8 mile range which is why I'm highly suspect of it's alleged 340 mile range.

So electric cars are at complete odds with the concept of a small performance car along the lines of an MX-5, Lotus, et al.

captain_cynic

11,874 posts

94 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Thinking further on my post, if we can get microtubines down to the size of a medium suitcase we might be able to do an electric hybrid with a mircoturbine powering an electric engine via a small battery bank (really more of a capacitor).

Would still be a bit heavy though.

Unfortunately mircoturbines are still the size of a fridge.

saaby93

32,038 posts

177 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
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ioniq

The Selfish Gene

5,470 posts

209 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
probably because the sort of people that buy sport cars, aren't interested in electric.

Obviously there will be some, but very few.

All the electric cars I've driven (although quick enough) felt totally benign around corners, and the sound is a huge part of any sportscar was missing.

hateful things.


anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Scrump said:
Original Tesla roadster
New Tesla Roadster
Morgan 3 wheeler EV

There will be others as the technology matures and becomes more accepted.
(There probably are others already beyond the 3 I listed)
Where can I buy the first two of those?


tr3a

468 posts

226 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Scrump said:
Original Tesla roadster
New Tesla Roadster
Where can I buy the first two of those?
The first is available on the used market. And keeping its value quite nicely, I believe.

The second will be available in a few years time. I think Musk said 2020, but his planned release dates are famous for being way off. They'll get round to it eventually, though. They always do.

SCEtoAUX

4,119 posts

80 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
The Selfish Gene said:
probably because the sort of people that buy sport cars, aren't interested in electric.

Obviously there will be some, but very few.

All the electric cars I've driven (although quick enough) felt totally benign around corners, and the sound is a huge part of any sportscar was missing.

hateful things.
You sound like the sort of bloke who would have told Henry Ford that what the world needed was faster horses.

gangzoom

6,254 posts

214 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
At flat chat, A Tesla model 3 cannot complete the 14 mile Nurburgring. A Model 3 at full throttle is estimated to have an 8 mile range which is why I'm highly suspect of it's alleged 340 mile range.
Your factual knowldge of EVs is truly staggering smile.

Mr E

21,583 posts

258 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
gangzoom said:
captain_cynic said:
At flat chat, A Tesla model 3 cannot complete the 14 mile Nurburgring. A Model 3 at full throttle is estimated to have an 8 mile range which is why I'm highly suspect of it's alleged 340 mile range.
Your factual knowldge of EVs is truly staggering smile.
I’d like to see the maths on that.
The very dull leaf I commute in has a 24kwh battery, and an 80kw motor.
So, max chat we’re talking dead in 20mins.
It doesn’t handle, but it’ll go round the ring in 20 minutes.

The performance mode 3 has a 75kwh battery and ~360kw of motor (and I want a go). So, battery dead in 12 mins.

Now, no usage will be 100% motor application for extended duration, and I suspect extended max draw on the battery would have all sorts of thermal implications.

It’s about as meaningless as the stat about the Bugatti emptying its tank in 12 minutes at max speed.


RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
The laws of physics.

There's a reason performance electric cars like RIMAC weigh almost 2 tonnes... Batteries. Even Li-ion and Li-Po need to be both big and heavy in order to supply enough power. The battery pack in a Model 3 is 540 KG, compare that to a tank of petrol which would weigh in at around 100 KG combined (tank, fuel pumps, all the fruit, the fuel itself will only weigh 77 KG).

Add to that the fact that the faster you go, the more energy you're using. Going electric doesn't get around that. At flat chat, A Tesla model 3 cannot complete the 14 mile Nurburgring. A Model 3 at full throttle is estimated to have an 8 mile range which is why I'm highly suspect of it's alleged 340 mile range.

So electric cars are at complete odds with the concept of a small performance car along the lines of an MX-5, Lotus, et al.
Yes the battery is heavy but it also replaced the engine, drive train exhaust and cooling etc too, you have to add in the motors but they weigh next to nothing.

The model 3 doesn't weigh any more than the equivalent BMW 3 series really.

For now the mix of volume, cost and demand means we don't have mainstream 2 Seater evs etc but the platforms developed will be easy to adapt.

The little Honda ev looks very cool that's coming out in a year or so

gangzoom

6,254 posts

214 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Even the main stream car journalist are finally starting to get it....EVs are just better smile.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/motor-shows-good...

JD

2,769 posts

227 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
The laws of physics.

At flat chat, A Tesla model 3 cannot complete the 14 mile Nurburgring. A Model 3 at full throttle is estimated to have an 8 mile range which is why I'm highly suspect of it's alleged 340 mile range.
I think the reason you are highly suspect, is because you don't understand the first thing you said.

Just think about how stupid that sounds.


RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
I'm pretty sure people don't drive the whole ring with 100 percent throttle..

Mr E

21,583 posts

258 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
RobDickinson said:
I'm pretty sure people don't drive the whole ring with 100 percent throttle..
Having watched the 919 go round, he had a bloody good attempt. smile

captain_cynic

11,874 posts

94 months

Thursday 19th July 2018
quotequote all
JD said:
I think the reason you are highly suspect, is because you don't understand the first thing you said.

Just think about how stupid that sounds.
Yep, your post does sound stupid. If you're going to call people stupid, you need to explain why... I'll start.

The more an object weighs the more energy is required to start it moving (Newton's first law) and again to make it change direction (Newtons second law).

And before anyone gets pedantic, newtons 3 laws of motion are colloquially referred to as the laws of physics

The Tesla fanboy butthurt is strong here.

RobDickinson said:
Yes the battery is heavy but it also replaced the engine, drive train exhaust and cooling etc too, you have to add in the motors but they weigh next to nothing.
So... it doesn't have an motor or drive shaft? How does it turn the wheels, magic?

A full exhaust system is maybe 70 KG (being generous here), they're light enough that many exhaust shops are one man bands.

RobDickinson said:
The model 3 doesn't weigh any more than the equivalent BMW 3 series really.
M3 coupe = 1,460 KG fully loaded with fluids.
Tesla Model 3 (Long Range) = 1,730 KG.

20% heavier than the M3 and we're not even thinking of the CSL version of the M3.

Also remember that the M3 isn't a light weight sports car, it achieves it's speed through brute force and phenomenal handling... If we compared either to a Lotus or a dedicated light weight track car like a Caterham... The Tesla would be twice the weight. My point was, we cant produce a lightweight electric sports car because electric cars cant be light weight.

Gad-Westy

14,521 posts

212 months

Thursday 19th July 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
M3 coupe = 1,460 KG fully loaded with fluids.
Tesla Model 3 (Long Range) = 1,730 KG.

20% heavier than the M3 and we're not even thinking of the CSL version of the M3.

Also remember that the M3 isn't a light weight sports car, it achieves it's speed through brute force and phenomenal handling... If we compared either to a Lotus or a dedicated light weight track car like a Caterham... The Tesla would be twice the weight. My point was, we cant produce a lightweight electric sports car because electric cars cant be light weight.
Where do you get your weights for the M3? I'd question it since BMW haven't made anything they call an M3 Coupe (or CSL) for a long time. The saloon 340 which I guess would be nearest equivalent to a Model 3 weighs 1650kg.