Second hand Zoe vs Leaf ~£4-7k mark advice

Second hand Zoe vs Leaf ~£4-7k mark advice

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theog87

Original Poster:

147 posts

73 months

Monday 10th September 2018
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Evening all,

I hope all is well.

I'm looking to get a nice weekend car and then something a little more economical which I can rack up the miles on (~10k a year).

My driving of this car will only really be from home to work and back, so charging overnight will be main source of 'topping up'. Something fun to drive would be nice, but more emphasis on cheap repairs / cheap running costs might be nice.

Just wondering if anyone has any preference on the above? I drove a Zoe the other day and it was really quite nice on the inside. It did feel quite heavy around the corners though.

The leaf looks like a heap of **** but I heard from someone that they are more reliable than the Zoe, so this in itself might be a deal breaker.

It seems you can pick up the Zoe at much cheaper price, and there are more of them, but you still get hit with a ~£80 monthly cost for the battery leasing. This makes me think it might just be better buying a Suzuki Alto (petrol 1L) and just keep with the old school for a little longer.

Also, has anyone replaced a battery in a leaf? I have heard it's possible to get individual cells replaced at the time, rather than the whole lot, which I would imagine would be more manageable.

Thoughts welcome as I get the impression the used market is picking up quite well now.

Best

Theog

Merry

1,360 posts

187 months

Monday 10th September 2018
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We had a 2nd hand Leaf. A 2012 one. It cost £7k.

Very well built thing, not bad to drive. Very quiet too. An ideal commuting car.

Ours had dropped 2 bars (lost one while we owned it - mainly because we had to fast charge it 3 times within as many hours). This gave us a range of about 70 miles in town and more like 50 on a motorway.

The battery in ours was owned - I've no reason to think that the battery would have got much worse but if its at the edge of what you need it could become a problem. In terms of replacement/refurb I think I found a company doing it but it's by no means common. A new pack is mega expensive.

To be honest I'm not sure ours would have got much worse unless we smashed the ChaDeMo chargers again.

Only mechanical issue we had was the 12v battery went flat so it wouldn't start (yeah really!). But that was more user error than anything.

If it suits your needs and you want to avoid battery lease then it's the only way to go in your price range.

mattcov

721 posts

225 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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The Leaf will be massively more reliable than the Zoe and I think majority of Zoes will be battery lease and the battery lease sours it a lot.

The only two stinkers of problems I've heard with the Leaf was a couple had a main charger/rectifier problem and the cost to fix pretty much wrote it off but this is very unlikely and I've heard of a few early ones having problems with the heater/cooling which was a dash out job and ~£2.5k - again you would have to be very unlucky. Zoes of all ages seem to be plagued with electrical problems going from the FB forums.


I think there is a still a Kia Soul EV lease/pcp for around £199 a month which to me would be a safer bet.

ElectricSoup

8,202 posts

150 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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I bought a 2015 Leaf a year ago as a commuting car and I bloody love it. Screen price was £9k and it had 8k miles on it at the time. Took it on a 3yr PCP at £150 a month, 12,000 miles a year. It has saved me a fortune over the £300 a month I used to spend on fuel alone, and costs almost nothing to run as I charge it at work. Got a free charger installed at home from PodPoint as I bought form a Nissan dealer. No Ved. No battery lease. Nothing. OK, I paid for an MoT but that's it. Not a single problem of any kind so far, I've done 9,000 miles in it. 100% reliable.

I will always have one electric car now in our family fleet. It's the absolute business for school runs, commutes, shopping, short(ish) range days out, taking kids to sports/events etc at the weekends. Best motoring decision I've ever made. And it's massive fun to drive. Sod the looks, I'm either in it, or it's in my garage. Who cares. I don't even give a st that it's cheapo solid red.

Mine's the original 24kwh battery capacity, about 90 mile range real world, but I never do more than 50 in a day and like I say I charge at work, gratis. Bonus. I expect to trade it for a later 30kwh or 40kwh capacity Leaf in 2 years time. Absolute gold plated bargain, second hand.

Check out the Leaf section on the SpeakEV forum. Full of useful stuff.

scotlandtim

319 posts

127 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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Another vote for the leaf here. Had a brand new zoe for 2 yrs on PCP in 2014 when they were doign them at stupid prices. After that bought a '13 plate leaf wiht 60k on it 2 years ago. now it's up to 85K and still 10 bars and performs perfectly. Range in summer 80. Winter 65. Does what i need it to - up and down from the borers to Edinburgh 5 days a week. Charge at work, cost to me after purchase outright for £5.5k = zero

Deerfoot

4,897 posts

183 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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I went through a similar scenario earlier in the year, comparing the Zoe and Leaf.

I ended up with a Yaris Hybrid instead. Zero RFL, easy 55mpg and no battery lease to worry about. My wife uses it for school runs and commuting to work. The battery lease on the Zoe would cost more per month than we spend on fuel for the Yaris..

SCEtoAUX

4,119 posts

80 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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I had a Leaf brand new four years ago on a PCP. At the end of last month we had to decide whether to:

1 - Give it back
2 - Buy the chassis, carry on leasing the battery
3 - Buy the chassis and the battery

As I'm confident that both the car and battery are easily capable of 100k miles with no issues I went for option 3. Nissan offered me the chassis at £3950 and the battery cost just over £3k.

It's a fine car for £7k, and having covered 40k miles in it in those four years we know how it's been looked after and that it suits us perfectly. Fuel saving cost is around £100/month, VED saving could easily be another tenner, and it really is perfect (as mentioned above) for those stop/start in and out of town trips.

If it lasts me three years and then I throw it away I'll be more than happy.

SCEtoAUX

4,119 posts

80 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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I'll tell you what though, Leaf prices are on the up.

You'll be wanting the 2nd generation one (2014 onwards, in either Acenta or Tekna trim as those two have regenerative braking). I can only find one on Autotrader for under £7k without a leased battery and it's on a fairly hefty 76k miles:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Tekna spec though, which adds leather, better stereo, heated seats and steering wheel.

Having paid £7k for mine I wouldn't sell it for that, an even WBAC value it at £7k which is interesting.

andy43

9,548 posts

253 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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2 months left on our 3 year acenta Leaf rental. Brilliant thing.
Early (beige interior) cars apparently have inferior heat pumps. And as above the basic visia aren’t all regen braking equipped.
I did read that the 24kw battery is likely to outlast the 30kw version, although I was told by a salesman that only one battery has been replaced in the whole of Europe so far.
I wouldn’t touch either car if you have to rent the battery. Zoe is ok, but a lighter smaller build - didn’t feel it’d last as long as the Leaf, which copes fine on motorways - hammers the range though.
Ours has been faultless, apart from two tyres, and a clicking at the front somewhere,maybe a subframe bush or something - but it hasn’t, erm, been driven with economy in mind smile
It just works, day in, day out.
Speakev is very useful. You may need to wear an anorak while posting.
Prices on used leaves have indeed firmed up over the last year or so. And the new one is mental money to rent, so we’re getting a Soul ev next.

Smiljan

10,772 posts

196 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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It is a bit weird currently on the 2nd hand market for Zoe and Leaf.

Even the crap spec Zoe's on battery lease are being advertised for strong money. If the choice is entirely environmental and for the way they drive then go find one that's been looked after and has a decent spec. If the choice is to save money then do your sums and then do your sums again. The savings just aren't that big over an economical petrol car and you'll be stuck with something that'll get you 60 miles or so in the winter.

I like the Zoe, have driven quite a few older ones and they are a pleasure to drive for a white goods machine. They have really, really poor range though and the battery lease just destroys and financial savings.

The Leaf is one of the few EVs I haven't driven and every owner seems to love them but again they only work out if you're choose one over ICE for non financial reasons. The savings just aren't big enough unless you do high mileage and high mileage is going to be real painful for a car in that price range.

I browse, PH Classifieds, eBay and Autotrader every few days and the prices definitely seem to be firming up.

Did anyone ever find out if you can buy out of the battery lease on the Zoe in the UK?

danp

1,603 posts

261 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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As mentioned the Leaf seems to be pretty solid, the Zoe less so. We now have two of the former and as a (mainly) town car they’re brilliant. Ours are worth the same or more than we paid a year or two ago so I don’t think you could get cheaper motoring (unless you bought a Porsche GT3 RS or suchlike)

Again as mentioned get a gen2 (100 or so improvements inc much more efficient heater) and don’t worry about the battery, it’s unlikely you’d ever look to get it refurbished unless you’re going to keep it a long time (it’ll degrade at about 3% a year)

You might just about scrape a slightly leggy gen2 Leaf for 7k but I’d spend a little more if poss. Beware of cheap ones as they could be flex (battery rental). Also beware of the Visia spec as it’s low and doesn’t have the better heater/sat nav/DC (rapid) charging etc. The battery rental never made sense to me, as I’d not spend that much on fuel with an ICE and over here the batteries are pretty bulletproof (less so in Texas)

Loads of info at speakEV.com

Edit: disagree with the post above ref not saving money, get a spreadsheet together and do the math as they say. I factored in £1k p.a. depreciation and it was still cheaper to run than a 1k reasonably eco shed. YMMV!



Edited by danp on Tuesday 11th September 19:52

Smiljan

10,772 posts

196 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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danp, I probably should've added - my calculations shows it's really hard to save money (more than a few hundred a year) that'd make it worth the pain involved with the poor range if you're doing it just to save money.

It is possible to save a little bit of money over the year if you put in miles and charge exclusively at home or for free.

theog87

Original Poster:

147 posts

73 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
quotequote all
wow thanks for this guys.

Ok so the first thing I get from this is avoid the Zoe like a plague. I thought it seemed to be too good.

If you look 'professional reviews' they all give 5 stars for reliability, but if you go into forums and the likes of the opinion is different. I really think forums are the way forward to get the right opinion. Sure you have to average out opinions, but more often than not they do end up in the right direction.

I think I need to start doing some maths... has anyone owned a Suzuki Alto?

HTP99

22,443 posts

139 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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Smiljan said:
Did anyone ever find out if you can buy out of the battery lease on the Zoe in the UK?
You can't.

danp

1,603 posts

261 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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Smiljan said:
danp, I probably should've added - my calculations shows it's really hard to save money (more than a few hundred a year) that'd make it worth the pain involved with the poor range if you're doing it just to save money.

It is possible to save a little bit of money over the year if you put in miles and charge
exclusively at home or for free.
Well in my calcs it’s circa £2k all in to do 10k miles in a cheap, efficient ICE so it’s difficult to save a fortune.

We charge mainly at home on eco7 (plus solar) and got lucky with the deals Nissan were doing on secondhand Leafs (0% finance, £1000 off, free “servicing”) - so I reckon we’ve done 10k miles for about £500.

Have used it for longer journeys where the rapid chargers are often free, but if they weren’t it’s still way cheaper than fuel.

Yes range is an issue but assume the OP realises this and he mentioned he’d have another car (as we do - but it never gets used)

The other thing about EVs people don’t always consider is that for commuting they are a much better tool than your average car. No engine noise, no vibration, no clutch and gears to shift, instantaneous throttle response, etc. It’s like being in a limo - far more relaxing than ICE!

Edited by danp on Tuesday 11th September 21:11

SCEtoAUX

4,119 posts

80 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
quotequote all
andy43 said:
...and a clicking at the front somewhere,maybe a subframe bush or something...
Mine does that too, and the local mechanic I use tells me it's the steering rack making the noise. No issues with it at MOT time though and he suggested that I just live with it. (Which we've done for three years now and it's never got worse).

SCEtoAUX

4,119 posts

80 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
quotequote all
danp said:
The other thing about EVs people don’t always consider is that for commuting they are a much better tool than your average car. No engine noise, no vibration, no clutch and gears to shift, instantaneous throttle response, etc. It’s like being in a limo - far more relaxing than ICE!
Quite, they are just brilliant in traffic.

Smiljan

10,772 posts

196 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
quotequote all
HTP99 said:
Smiljan said:
Did anyone ever find out if you can buy out of the battery lease on the Zoe in the UK?
You can't.
Is it still only Germany that you can then?

Smiljan

10,772 posts

196 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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SCEtoAUX said:
Quite, they are just brilliant in traffic.
They certainly are!

essayer

9,009 posts

193 months

Tuesday 11th September 2018
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Smiljan said:
I like the Zoe, have driven quite a few older ones and they are a pleasure to drive for a white goods machine. They have really, really poor range though and the battery lease just destroys and financial savings.
The 24kWh Leaf and 22kWh ZOE have basically the same range don't they? 60 miles winter, 80-ish summer? Maybe a bit more with careful driving.

As far as I can make out there is hardly any degredation reported in the various ZOE places from those who've been monitoring it - mine's still on 100% after two years. The main issue with ZOE seems to be the 12v DC/DC converter throwing a warning light, but once these have been fixed (warranty) they don't appear to be failing again.

The ZOE battery lease is a pain, but it did make the car £6k cheaper than it would have been new, so used prices are lower as a result. You can buy a battery-owned version, but these are very rare 2nd hand, and you don't get breakdown/flat battery cover included!

Both cars are really well spec'd though, satnav, reversing camera, remote preheat, no manual gears - something a cheapo 1L petrol may not come with!