Second hand Zoe vs Leaf ~£4-7k mark advice
Discussion
What will be interesting is the fact that because any Leaf, for someone doing lots of short trips, will deliver a saving of around £100/month in fuel. That surely puts a floor on the price of one with a new MOT at something like £2,500. It only has to pass one more MOT and after 24 months it's effectively a free car.
That’s where you have to be careful with the maths. £100 a month on a 50mpg car is around 850 miles per month. That’s a heck of a lot of short trips!
If you pick a Zoe, the battery lease for 500 miles per month is £60 per month, add in electricity use and you’ll be looking at zero savings over petrol.
The cheapest Zoe/Leaf on Autotrader is £4K and looks a bargain until you factor in that battery lease. I’m torn over whether either car is suitable for the OP to do 10k a year in.
That said, if I could charge at work for free I’d be in a Zoe in a flash.
If you pick a Zoe, the battery lease for 500 miles per month is £60 per month, add in electricity use and you’ll be looking at zero savings over petrol.
The cheapest Zoe/Leaf on Autotrader is £4K and looks a bargain until you factor in that battery lease. I’m torn over whether either car is suitable for the OP to do 10k a year in.
That said, if I could charge at work for free I’d be in a Zoe in a flash.
Edited by Smiljan on Tuesday 11th September 22:35
Smiljan said:
That’s where you have to be careful with the maths. £100 a month on a 50mpg car is around 850 miles per month. That’s a heck of a lot of short trips!
If you pick a Zoe, the battery lease for 500 miles per month is £60 per month, add in electricity use and you’ll be looking at zero savings over petrol.
The cheapest Zoe/Leaf on Autotrader is £4K and looks a bargain until you factor in that battery lease. I’m torn over whether either car is suitable for the OP to do 10k a year in.
That said, if I could charge at work for free I’d be in a Zoe in a flash.
Avoiding any kind of battery lease is of course essential but plenty of people cover 850 miles per month. It's under 30 per day and for us that's one trip in and out of town and one trip to a golf club on most days. Add in the fact that I use the car for a 34 mile round trip to work three days each week and that's the miles done and more besides.If you pick a Zoe, the battery lease for 500 miles per month is £60 per month, add in electricity use and you’ll be looking at zero savings over petrol.
The cheapest Zoe/Leaf on Autotrader is £4K and looks a bargain until you factor in that battery lease. I’m torn over whether either car is suitable for the OP to do 10k a year in.
That said, if I could charge at work for free I’d be in a Zoe in a flash.
Edited by Smiljan on Tuesday 11th September 22:35
So cheap Zoe/leased battery is certainly a no-go, but cheap Leaf/owned battery (like I have), plus a suitable usage pattern (like I have) makes the maths work out very nicely.
I'd vote for a gen2 mark one Leaf. My 2014 Acenta which I bought new is on 75k
My daily commute of mixed driving including 40 on the motorway is 76 miles. I can't be doing lane one on the m/way in the mornings so that part of the journey zaps the range, 76 miles in summer is okay, in the winter its borderline even if I stick to 50 on the return m/way journey, there is nowhere to stop and top up in the last 20 miles so its best to bail out early and rapid charge.
For the first 2 years the car was rapid charged daily as I used to take a slightly longer more m/way route that just tipped it over the range even in summer. Could have been me driving at 80 but lets not dwell on that.
(actually 80 is nearer 74 in a Leaf)
Since I made the route change it now gets rapid charged less often but still on average 2-3 times a week, that will increase to every day now that its getting colder and the days shorter.
The battery is still on 12 bars.
Exepenses to date.
3 Services, 4 Tyres, 2 Mot's and lots of coal.
Looking to upgrade later this year / early next year but a new Leaf is over budget for me at present so will be looking for a low mileage 30kw Tekna
Only looking to change for the gain in range and the desire for LCD headlamps. If I did 40 miles a day I'd keep it.
We buy any shed offered more money last month for the car than they did 2 years ago, demand for Ev's is on the up...
Driving is much more relaxing, when I last drove my old fossil BMW before selling it, (I'd kept but loaned it to my brother for 2 years) I couldn't believe how often I had to use the brakes!
Personally I'd buy the £7k 74000 mile Tekna mentioned above all day over a Gen1 pre 2014 car.
BTW if you look for a Leaf, Gen2 cars are UK built and have a manual foot pedal controlled handbrake, the Gen1 Japan built cars have beige or grey trim and an electric handbrake in the centre console.
My daily commute of mixed driving including 40 on the motorway is 76 miles. I can't be doing lane one on the m/way in the mornings so that part of the journey zaps the range, 76 miles in summer is okay, in the winter its borderline even if I stick to 50 on the return m/way journey, there is nowhere to stop and top up in the last 20 miles so its best to bail out early and rapid charge.
For the first 2 years the car was rapid charged daily as I used to take a slightly longer more m/way route that just tipped it over the range even in summer. Could have been me driving at 80 but lets not dwell on that.
(actually 80 is nearer 74 in a Leaf)Since I made the route change it now gets rapid charged less often but still on average 2-3 times a week, that will increase to every day now that its getting colder and the days shorter.
The battery is still on 12 bars.
Exepenses to date.
3 Services, 4 Tyres, 2 Mot's and lots of coal.
Looking to upgrade later this year / early next year but a new Leaf is over budget for me at present so will be looking for a low mileage 30kw Tekna
Only looking to change for the gain in range and the desire for LCD headlamps. If I did 40 miles a day I'd keep it.
We buy any shed offered more money last month for the car than they did 2 years ago, demand for Ev's is on the up...
Driving is much more relaxing, when I last drove my old fossil BMW before selling it, (I'd kept but loaned it to my brother for 2 years) I couldn't believe how often I had to use the brakes!
Personally I'd buy the £7k 74000 mile Tekna mentioned above all day over a Gen1 pre 2014 car.
BTW if you look for a Leaf, Gen2 cars are UK built and have a manual foot pedal controlled handbrake, the Gen1 Japan built cars have beige or grey trim and an electric handbrake in the centre console.
SCEtoAUX said:
andy43 said:
...and a clicking at the front somewhere,maybe a subframe bush or something...
Mine does that too, and the local mechanic I use tells me it's the steering rack making the noise. No issues with it at MOT time though and he suggested that I just live with it. (Which we've done for three years now and it's never got worse).Another Leaf factoid - Nissan had to design a new wiper motor as a standard one was just too noisy with no engine to drown it out.
I’ve waffled on before but they’re ace, provided you have somewhere at home to charge. No de icing, ever again - that by itself is worth it. Floor it from cold without thinking you’ll break it. Beat most cars at every set of lights, over the first 20 metres. Plug in at home - no dark miserable filling stations - for a lone female a massive plus. Silent - no waking the neighbours. Ugly - but who cares!
Re rented batteries - honestly I’d pay extra to own it - looking at used prices and the numbers for sale the leased battery cars must be almost impossible to shift.
You’re effectively paying per month for a partial drivetrain warranty on the bit that doesn’t seem to ever go wrong.
There’s a taxi firm, Cornwall I think, running 100k plus Leafs into the ground with very few repairs. You need to fast charge constantly and take the car close to 100k before you’ll lose battery condition bars.
No wonder people are slowly realising they’re the ultimate commuter car.
ETA yes, Cornwall. 175000 miles and 70% battery left with zero breakdowns. Zero. Try that with a Citroen dagdag.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2017/...
Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 12th September 09:07
andy43 said:
Ours is a new noise, when on/off the power. One click power on, then another when lifting off suddenly. Doesn’t seem to be getting worse, and tbh you really need to listen for it anyway - with a throbbing 1 litre ICE up front you would never notice it.
Another Leaf factoid - Nissan had to design a new wiper motor as a standard one was just too noisy with no engine to drown it out.
I’ve waffled on before but they’re ace, provided you have somewhere at home to charge. No de icing, ever again - that by itself is worth it. Floor it from cold without thinking you’ll break it. Beat most cars at every set of lights, over the first 20 metres. Plug in at home - no dark miserable filling stations - for a lone female a massive plus. Silent - no waking the neighbours. Ugly - but who cares!
Re rented batteries - honestly I’d pay extra to own it - looking at used prices and the numbers for sale the leased battery cars must be almost impossible to shift.
You’re effectively paying per month for a partial drivetrain warranty on the bit that doesn’t seem to ever go wrong.
There’s a taxi firm, Cornwall I think, running 100k plus Leafs into the ground with very few repairs. You need to fast charge constantly and take the car close to 100k before you’ll lose battery condition bars.
No wonder people are slowly realising they’re the ultimate commuter car.
ETA yes, Cornwall. 175000 miles and 70% battery left with zero breakdowns. Zero. Try that with a Citroen dagdag.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2017/...
We're on our second Gen 2 Leaf. The build quality on both the cars we've owned has been a bit sketchy, the first suffered an aircon failure which took ten weeks to repair.. our current car suffeered the clicking noise you've mentioned, it turned out the steering rack was failing (at 7k miles) in addition its needed two new mirrors due to the creaking issue and the rear heated seat failed requiring a 2 day trip to the dealer to replace..Another Leaf factoid - Nissan had to design a new wiper motor as a standard one was just too noisy with no engine to drown it out.
I’ve waffled on before but they’re ace, provided you have somewhere at home to charge. No de icing, ever again - that by itself is worth it. Floor it from cold without thinking you’ll break it. Beat most cars at every set of lights, over the first 20 metres. Plug in at home - no dark miserable filling stations - for a lone female a massive plus. Silent - no waking the neighbours. Ugly - but who cares!
Re rented batteries - honestly I’d pay extra to own it - looking at used prices and the numbers for sale the leased battery cars must be almost impossible to shift.
You’re effectively paying per month for a partial drivetrain warranty on the bit that doesn’t seem to ever go wrong.
There’s a taxi firm, Cornwall I think, running 100k plus Leafs into the ground with very few repairs. You need to fast charge constantly and take the car close to 100k before you’ll lose battery condition bars.
No wonder people are slowly realising they’re the ultimate commuter car.
ETA yes, Cornwall. 175000 miles and 70% battery left with zero breakdowns. Zero. Try that with a Citroen dagdag.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2017/...
Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 12th September 09:07
I wouldn't run one of these outside of warranty
T5GRF said:
We're on our second Gen 2 Leaf. The build quality on both the cars we've owned has been a bit sketchy, the first suffered an aircon failure which took ten weeks to repair.. our current car suffeered the clicking noise you've mentioned, it turned out the steering rack was failing (at 7k miles) in addition its needed two new mirrors due to the creaking issue and the rear heated seat failed requiring a 2 day trip to the dealer to replace..
I wouldn't run one of these outside of warranty
Sounds like you’ve been unlucky, I’ve read a fair bit on the Leaf over at speakEV and don’t think I can remember any of these problems being mentioned (perhaps the mirrors).I wouldn't run one of these outside of warranty
Premature near side rear tyre wear due to dodgy rear suspension beams is about all I can think of as a fairly common flaw on the gen2.
andy43 said:
ETA yes, Cornwall. 175000 miles and 70% battery left with zero breakdowns. Zero. Try that with a Citroen dagdag.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2017/...
They pay for themselves after 2 years. I'm not entirely sure how they work that out as they seem to do around 30k miles a year each - that in diesel is around £7k over two years. Or does cost neutral mean they have paid off the difference in extra purchase cost in that period. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2017/...
Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 12th September 09:07
Either way, if they keep them for 10 years I can see how the savings will stack up.
Anyway, it's a good tale. Nice to see a taxi firm taking the early leap and being rewarded with great reliability and drivers who enjoy them. I'm sure customers appreciate them too.
It'll be interesting to see what happens in my area of West London over the next few years where virtually every taxi is a Prius. Having been in quite a few it seems the drivers are already proficient at squeezing the maximum economy out of them so the switch to pure EVs should be straightforward. Toyota need to jump on this sector instead of hybrids and they could mop up the taxi business easily.
Edited by Smiljan on Wednesday 12th September 11:33
Another vote for gen2 leaf. they actually started in 2013 (ours is a 63 plate).
I did the maths and we save well over £1000/year; once you have one it will be your go to option for all local driving. Most people get between 3.5 and 4 miles/kwh so about 3p/mile depending on your leccy cost. How many people manage better than 10p/mile in an ice?
We needed to buy a replacement for the wife to use commuting and general run around (rural area so lots of running kids around in the evening).
Gen1 leafs are all battery owned but the batteries are a different technology.
Gen2 can be battery owned or leased. Nissan went through an exercise a while ago getting v5's updated to include the word FLEX if its battery lease (it used to be impossible to tell).
gen2 better batteries, heat pump (except visia) for heating.
most gen2 are acenta - the headlamps are s
t. tekna gets led headlights which are much better.
gen1 cars are usually beige inside, gen2 dark gray (but beige was an option).
gen1 cars have electric handbrake which can be an expensive issue - gen 2 normal handbrake.
quick 'tells' in advert pics
- gen1 has the handbrake lever/flap in the pocket between the front seats. gen2 has foot activated handbrake.
- gen2 has an 'eco' button on the right hand side of the steeting wheel .
I did the maths and we save well over £1000/year; once you have one it will be your go to option for all local driving. Most people get between 3.5 and 4 miles/kwh so about 3p/mile depending on your leccy cost. How many people manage better than 10p/mile in an ice?
We needed to buy a replacement for the wife to use commuting and general run around (rural area so lots of running kids around in the evening).
Gen1 leafs are all battery owned but the batteries are a different technology.
Gen2 can be battery owned or leased. Nissan went through an exercise a while ago getting v5's updated to include the word FLEX if its battery lease (it used to be impossible to tell).
gen2 better batteries, heat pump (except visia) for heating.
most gen2 are acenta - the headlamps are s
t. tekna gets led headlights which are much better.gen1 cars are usually beige inside, gen2 dark gray (but beige was an option).
gen1 cars have electric handbrake which can be an expensive issue - gen 2 normal handbrake.
quick 'tells' in advert pics
- gen1 has the handbrake lever/flap in the pocket between the front seats. gen2 has foot activated handbrake.
- gen2 has an 'eco' button on the right hand side of the steeting wheel .
Once again, thanks for all the feedback. Really appreciate the effort.
I'm still figuring out sums as I'm trying to pitch in a weekend car at the same time (at the moment I'm thinking a niceish low mileage BMW e46 M3 convertible) to rack up maybe ~3k miles a year.
So far thinking Leaf Gen 2 thanks to feedback.
I'm currently only going to be able to charge publicly, but mainly at home, so no work bonuses. I currently use ecotricity as my electricity provider. Although I have eco 7, I currently pay a flat rate regardless, so not sure I have benefits charging overnight.
Just some further questions if at all possible:
- Currently when buying a car, I would normally take it to my local trusted X dealership to have a look over to check the state of the car. Is this service available for EV's? I'm not really technically minded, so feel (at present) somewhat uncomfortable giving it a look over if buying privately.
- Anyone seen any remote financial gains from buying a solar system setup (~£10k panels + battery storage ~£4k inc install for both) especially for EV usage? From last look they only produce max 4 kwh output so will only subsidise (depending on usage). I maybe completely wrong here though.
Best,
Theog
I'm still figuring out sums as I'm trying to pitch in a weekend car at the same time (at the moment I'm thinking a niceish low mileage BMW e46 M3 convertible) to rack up maybe ~3k miles a year.
So far thinking Leaf Gen 2 thanks to feedback.
I'm currently only going to be able to charge publicly, but mainly at home, so no work bonuses. I currently use ecotricity as my electricity provider. Although I have eco 7, I currently pay a flat rate regardless, so not sure I have benefits charging overnight.
Just some further questions if at all possible:
- Currently when buying a car, I would normally take it to my local trusted X dealership to have a look over to check the state of the car. Is this service available for EV's? I'm not really technically minded, so feel (at present) somewhat uncomfortable giving it a look over if buying privately.
- Anyone seen any remote financial gains from buying a solar system setup (~£10k panels + battery storage ~£4k inc install for both) especially for EV usage? From last look they only produce max 4 kwh output so will only subsidise (depending on usage). I maybe completely wrong here though.
Best,
Theog
theog87 said:
Once again, thanks for all the feedback. Really appreciate the effort.
I'm still figuring out sums as I'm trying to pitch in a weekend car at the same time (at the moment I'm thinking a niceish low mileage BMW e46 M3 convertible) to rack up maybe ~3k miles a year.
So far thinking Leaf Gen 2 thanks to feedback.
I'm currently only going to be able to charge publicly, but mainly at home, so no work bonuses. I currently use ecotricity as my electricity provider. Although I have eco 7, I currently pay a flat rate regardless, so not sure I have benefits charging overnight.
Just some further questions if at all possible:
- Currently when buying a car, I would normally take it to my local trusted X dealership to have a look over to check the state of the car. Is this service available for EV's? I'm not really technically minded, so feel (at present) somewhat uncomfortable giving it a look over if buying privately.
- Anyone seen any remote financial gains from buying a solar system setup (~£10k panels + battery storage ~£4k inc install for both) especially for EV usage? From last look they only produce max 4 kwh output so will only subsidise (depending on usage). I maybe completely wrong here though.
Best,
Theog
You can get an App called LeafSpy Pro and a Bluetooth or Wireless ODB2 adapter to check the state of health of the batteries. Personally on the leaf I would check:I'm still figuring out sums as I'm trying to pitch in a weekend car at the same time (at the moment I'm thinking a niceish low mileage BMW e46 M3 convertible) to rack up maybe ~3k miles a year.
So far thinking Leaf Gen 2 thanks to feedback.
I'm currently only going to be able to charge publicly, but mainly at home, so no work bonuses. I currently use ecotricity as my electricity provider. Although I have eco 7, I currently pay a flat rate regardless, so not sure I have benefits charging overnight.
Just some further questions if at all possible:
- Currently when buying a car, I would normally take it to my local trusted X dealership to have a look over to check the state of the car. Is this service available for EV's? I'm not really technically minded, so feel (at present) somewhat uncomfortable giving it a look over if buying privately.
- Anyone seen any remote financial gains from buying a solar system setup (~£10k panels + battery storage ~£4k inc install for both) especially for EV usage? From last look they only produce max 4 kwh output so will only subsidise (depending on usage). I maybe completely wrong here though.
Best,
Theog
1. Battery bars all present (all 12).
2. Check heating works fully.
3. Check aircon/cooling works fully.
4. Make sure sat nav works and the SDcard is there.
5. See if the remote connectivity works if possible.
6. Make sure the 2 charging leads are present - both granny lead (13a plug) and type1 to type 2 leads are there.
7. Make sure you can charge it at a rapid charger.
Apart from that just check the MOT history online. Isn't much else to check - coolant is a service item along with pollen filter. Obviously have a look at tyre condition, brake pads and disc condition.
Cant answer the solar + battery storage yet - my math for them doesn't stack up just yet... I've just swapped Electric to Outfox the Market ~ 9p per kwh unit.
Silicon Penetration said:
Slightly OT but do you have a link for that deal please?
There's one here, https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/vehicles/kia-soul... but I'm sure I've seen a better one on speak EV or the lease deals forum on here.If you have home charging and E7 electricty costs are so cheap you don't need to factor in public charging. My fuel costs on a Leaf using E7 worked out ar 2.7p per mile, or £270 over 10k!!
I wouldn't bother with solar PV if you haven't already got it installed. The major draw was the guaranteed money back from government which is now all but worthless and stopping completely next year. Battery storage has a massive up front costs, which will take decades to see a return.
A few years ago solar PV was a different situation, we are getting paid 13.5p per kWh hour of electricty generated by our solar PV setup- thats rate is guaranteed (with inflation tracking I belive) till 2035. Last year excluding car charging our net electricty costs was a profit of £50. We also have waiting on a battery storage system to be installed. Currently on E7 and our electricty use is split 25/75 day/night. Once the battery system arrives it'll charge overnight if not filled by solar PV in the day, so in effect we'll be on 100% E7 rate all the time. Our energy supplier already doesn't belive our day/ night split is real, they are going to love us when we stop using day time electricity all together.
There is very little to 'service' on any EV. Brake fluid, tyres, aircon regass and that's about it. Most independent garages will happily do those jobs on a Leaf/Zoe. Personally I've been driving EVs since 2015 and done 38K various EVs, I've yet paid a single £ on any kind of servicing - though thats party due to changing cars. Still I wouldn't expect to pay more than £100 every few years- tyres excluded.
We had a Leaf for 2 years and inlaws a Zoe for 2 years. Both are great cars and really cheap. The Leaf is much bigger than the Zoe and feels more 'grown up'. I woudlnt hesitate to get either if on the look for a budget EV.
Though both the Leaf/Zoe are still expensive compared to true 'bangernomics' car -£500 with a MOT. Having driven one you know how nice EVs are to drive. Ultimatly if you care even a little bit about the driving experince EVs are simply the only choice.
I wouldn't bother with solar PV if you haven't already got it installed. The major draw was the guaranteed money back from government which is now all but worthless and stopping completely next year. Battery storage has a massive up front costs, which will take decades to see a return.
A few years ago solar PV was a different situation, we are getting paid 13.5p per kWh hour of electricty generated by our solar PV setup- thats rate is guaranteed (with inflation tracking I belive) till 2035. Last year excluding car charging our net electricty costs was a profit of £50. We also have waiting on a battery storage system to be installed. Currently on E7 and our electricty use is split 25/75 day/night. Once the battery system arrives it'll charge overnight if not filled by solar PV in the day, so in effect we'll be on 100% E7 rate all the time. Our energy supplier already doesn't belive our day/ night split is real, they are going to love us when we stop using day time electricity all together
.There is very little to 'service' on any EV. Brake fluid, tyres, aircon regass and that's about it. Most independent garages will happily do those jobs on a Leaf/Zoe. Personally I've been driving EVs since 2015 and done 38K various EVs, I've yet paid a single £ on any kind of servicing - though thats party due to changing cars. Still I wouldn't expect to pay more than £100 every few years- tyres excluded.
We had a Leaf for 2 years and inlaws a Zoe for 2 years. Both are great cars and really cheap. The Leaf is much bigger than the Zoe and feels more 'grown up'. I woudlnt hesitate to get either if on the look for a budget EV.
Though both the Leaf/Zoe are still expensive compared to true 'bangernomics' car -£500 with a MOT. Having driven one you know how nice EVs are to drive. Ultimatly if you care even a little bit about the driving experince EVs are simply the only choice
.Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 16th September 07:18
I'm currently looking at pv + battery and it is hard to make the numbers work.
I think the way to do it would be to go e7 and use that to charge the car and the batteries so that the pv+battery system provides all you need in the dytime.
There is a limit on pv grid connect installs under g83 which is why you see 4kw systems as being the bigger ones offered.
tbh I'm starting to think the cheapest way is just to get a used battery pack from an ev and a battery management system and run that on e7.
I think the way to do it would be to go e7 and use that to charge the car and the batteries so that the pv+battery system provides all you need in the dytime.
There is a limit on pv grid connect installs under g83 which is why you see 4kw systems as being the bigger ones offered.
tbh I'm starting to think the cheapest way is just to get a used battery pack from an ev and a battery management system and run that on e7.
TooLateForAName said:
tbh I'm starting to think the cheapest way is just to get a used battery pack from an ev and a battery management system and run that on e7.
However in that situation your put addtional load on the EV traction battery which will increase degradation. From what little I understand the cell chemistry Tesla use in their powerwalls is different from those in the EVs??
Running everything at night will eventually mean I think E7 rates will disappear. For example soon we'll have two EVs charging at night - 64 amps/14KW constant draw, add in charging up a powerwall, running dishwasher/washing machine - We'll be pushing 80amp sustained electricty use, which is far higher than what most households draw even in peak hours. Am currently in the process of requesting our main fuse to be upgraded from 80 to 100amps.
It will only take a small number of people to do the same and all of a sudden overnight demand will go up, and with that am sure E7 will go....but that is a long way away yet, so whilst E7 is still here I'll happily take advantage for as long as possible
.mattcov said:
Silicon Penetration said:
Slightly OT but do you have a link for that deal please?
There's one here, https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/vehicles/kia-soul... but I'm sure I've seen a better one on speak EV or the lease deals forum on here.6+36 business contract hire inc tyres, breakdown cover and servicing for £173+vat a month, 6,000 miles per annum.
I actually placed the order in June - drive electric were the cheapest at the time - but it looks like their monthly prices are still the same. I'd be amazed if you can get much cheaper. Not many come into the country so it's worth ordering well in advance to get a build slot.
Compared to the brand new Leaf (40kw) the Soul 30kw is very cheap if you're considering renting, and pretty well specc'd.
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