They're here.........genuine Tesla competitors
Discussion
Not prudent to re-calibrate on a sample of one though. Especially if that sample is based on the husband making the consumer decision and in addition fully offset by my sample of one where my wife is an eminent fitness instructor who has everything paid for by me. 
Maybe if all the imagery of people collecting their Teslas, driving their Teslas and the social media presence of people talking about their Teslas showed an equal number of women rather than being a massive boner fest this might suggest a recalibration was needed.
A decade ago EVs were things like GWizes, the choice of the professional, champagne swilling, yogurt weaver. We are currently in the new era of EVs being boys toys. But the absolutely crucial change will be when boggo consumers who don’t really give a f
k about cars, the people who buy Vauxhall’s or Hyundai’s are choosing to buy EVs over ICE or hybrids. I think when we do finally see that then we will be able to say that EVs have hit the mark and that volumes really will increase rapidly.
Maybe if all the imagery of people collecting their Teslas, driving their Teslas and the social media presence of people talking about their Teslas showed an equal number of women rather than being a massive boner fest this might suggest a recalibration was needed.
A decade ago EVs were things like GWizes, the choice of the professional, champagne swilling, yogurt weaver. We are currently in the new era of EVs being boys toys. But the absolutely crucial change will be when boggo consumers who don’t really give a f
k about cars, the people who buy Vauxhall’s or Hyundai’s are choosing to buy EVs over ICE or hybrids. I think when we do finally see that then we will be able to say that EVs have hit the mark and that volumes really will increase rapidly. kambites said:
I think the fact that we seem to be approaching TCO parity on budget cars is in itself quite interesting.
This is spot on, especially if you consider the strong residuals of the Teslas for example. Although what will happen to those residuals once there's more competition in the market is anyone's guess.I'm also not sure the Kona EV is exactly premium priced. The cheapest 64kWh version (ie: the one you really want) is £30k, and the top spec version is £32.7k. That's roughly Ford Kuga money.
Re what sells a car or a Tesla or a Kona, Tesla figured out the premium spin. It’s about performance, refinement, technology, and that special whiff of innovation. And voila we have a premium product. Obviously I Pace, etron, Taycan etc are all trying that same game which basically boils down to burying the battery cost in something expensive.
I have an i3 as it happens. I bought that because it’s small, nimble, light, full of crazy weight saving tech, and it’s good fun to drive. A brilliant backroads car actually despite being sold as an urban car. Completely “born electric”.
Stuff like a Kona would have zero appeal to me.
It’ll be interesting what the next couple of years holds in store. Less of the Kona approach hopefully.
I have an i3 as it happens. I bought that because it’s small, nimble, light, full of crazy weight saving tech, and it’s good fun to drive. A brilliant backroads car actually despite being sold as an urban car. Completely “born electric”.
Stuff like a Kona would have zero appeal to me.
It’ll be interesting what the next couple of years holds in store. Less of the Kona approach hopefully.
kambites said:
joshcowin said:
Look at what cars people buy now who don't care about driving.
The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles,
If you mean new cars, that's simply not true. I doubt more than 5% of new cars registered in the UK have a list price of under £10k and I suspect the average price is well over £20k. The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles,
If you're including used purchases... well of course a new car is going to be more expensive. EVs are undoubtedly still expensive things to buy but they're not three times (or even twice) the price of equivalent ICE powered cars in any segment where you can realistically compare like with like.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 11:20
I clearly wasn't talking about new cars, the people I was talking about don't care if its new or not, they are completely un-interested in cars and driving.
Edited by joshcowin on Tuesday 13th November 12:04
joshcowin said:
kambites said:
joshcowin said:
Look at what cars people buy now who don't care about driving.
The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles,
If you mean new cars, that's simply not true. I doubt more than 5% of new cars registered in the UK have a list price of under £10k and I suspect the average price is well over £20k. The vast majority are in sub £10k vehicles,
If you're including used purchases... well of course a new car is going to be more expensive. EVs are undoubtedly still expensive things to buy but they're not three times (or even twice) the price of equivalent ICE powered cars in any segment where you can realistically compare like with like.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th November 11:20
Average Cost of Cars UK 2017
We analyzed the UK car market to find starting on-the-road (OTR) prices for the UK's most popular small cars, medium cars and small SUVs. These OTR prices reflect a delivery charge, number plates, road tax (which depends on the car’s emissions) and the first government registration fee.
Cost of the Average Small Car
In 2017, the entry-level cost of an average small car ranged from about £10,635 to £12,715. We calculated this based on current prices for some of the UK's top-selling small cars. As of July 2017, the Ford Fiesta (Style trim), the UK's best selling car, sells for a starting OTR price of £12,715, a Vauxhall Corsa sells for £10,635 and a VW Polo for £11,970. The average of the top three best-selling UK small cars as of July 2017 is £11,773. After modest price increases between 2013 and 2016, the price of the Ford Fiesta jumped up by 23% in 2017.
A medium, C-segment car should cost you in the range of £16,500 to £20,000 in 2017. This estimate is based on current OTR prices for the UK's top selling medium cars for the past year, as of July 2017: the Ford Focus, the Volkswagen Golf and the Vauxhall Astra. Currently, the Vauxhall Astra is the cheapest and least popular of the three, costing around £16,500. The VW Golf starts from £17,765 and ever-popular Ford Focus costs about £19,700. The average price of these three models is £18,000.
You should expect to pay in the range of about £19,000 to £24,000 for a small/crossover SUV in the UK. This was based on our comparison of the Nissan Qashqai, the VW Tiguan and the Peugeot 3008. The Nissan Qashqai, which has been a best-selling SUV in the UK for years, is the most affordable with a starting cost around £19,300 in 2017. The VW Tiguan is currently priced around £23,250. Finally, Peugeot's 3008 is selling for about £22,500 this year.
Well Hyundai today have hiked up their prices for the Kona electric by a couple of grand. Add this to the reduction in EV grant and the price is looking really pretty ridiculous.
Similar range to Tesla, now creeping towards similar prices for good used Model S.
I know exactly which one I'd choose.
Similar range to Tesla, now creeping towards similar prices for good used Model S.
I know exactly which one I'd choose.
DonkeyApple said:
Not prudent to re-calibrate on a sample of one though.
Make that two, my wife paid for 50% of our Tesla and she is going to pay 100% towards her Lexus replacemnt- likely a Model 3.How many people on this forum are female as a whole? I would suggest your all assumption simply show is us men are better at wasting time on pointless internet forums than women
.The figures for the S are something like 15%. The X was intended to open up the female market but just on the basics of economics it’s not likely to be close to 50% in terms of buying as it’s a near £100k purchase and we still live in a world where the majority of incomes at that sort of level are male. It is all a bit of a bonerfest product.
AstonZagato said:
When we bought our Tesla, it was something I encouraged my wife to look at (her driving profile suits EVs - high mileage made up lots of short journeys that usually end daily at home). She quite happily drove around in a massive Toyota Landcruiser V8.
<snip>
Oh - and she's an eminent doctor and has no need for me to buy her cars for her, so you might need to re-calibrate your "it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife" thinking.
Hang one: you just said you encouraged her to look at the Tesla....so whilst you may not have paid for it, you were 100% the reason she got one, surely!<snip>
Oh - and she's an eminent doctor and has no need for me to buy her cars for her, so you might need to re-calibrate your "it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife" thinking.
Smiljan said:
Well Hyundai today have hiked up their prices for the Kona electric by a couple of grand. Add this to the reduction in EV grant and the price is looking really pretty ridiculous.
Similar range to Tesla, now creeping towards similar prices for good used Model S.
I know exactly which one I'd choose.
I agree the price hike is not great...but it sounds like Kia are planning that higher price for their Niro (announced already in Norway, 17% higher, same battery); that plus Hyundai already have a waitlist over 40 weeks, I would say suggests it makes sense for them to look for a bit more profit in them!Similar range to Tesla, now creeping towards similar prices for good used Model S.
I know exactly which one I'd choose.
I’ve got one on order. A Kona.
Yes, got in before the price rise (but after the EV grant drop), but your comment made me take a look: I’d quite like a Tesla!
Even at today’s Kona price, however, a ~4 year old S with 100k miles on the clock would still be few grand more.
This is our first EV, and I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t work for all our trips (don’t fancy trying to get to Les Arcs next year!!), but I do have a feeling it will become the “go to” vehicle for the vast majority of our runs.
Particularly if we get a Zappi charger and it works as advertised with our solar PV: properly free fuel!
I’m also not sure I’d fancy a 3-5 year old EV right now: the technology is moving fast, but the Kona does have an 8 year warranty.
I think the Kona and Niro could well be game changers*.
People speak of the Tesla Model 3 in the same way, & surely therefore a sane person would buy the Tesla.....but realistically, to get the same range as the 64kWh Kona/Niro with the heated seats, etc, I bet it will be a good £10-15k more. And I doubt there will be any in the UK in the next 12 months at the lowest Tesla price-point.
Don’t get me wrong: I’d love a Tesla...the X looks superb, but it is a big chunk over ~£35k, & some of us spent less than that on their first house!
‘*’ actually, the real game changer will be properly decent charging infrastructure. Being my first EV, I’m only now finding out how some chargers work with some cars, how there are different networks & connectors: for ICE cars today, fuel is everywhere & the only question is “diesel or petrol?”. EVs are still some way off this. I suspect we will grow to love it as a second car!
It’ll be interesting to hear how you get on when your Kona arrives.
Used Model S can be had quite often in auctions, eBay etc for £35k or less but maybe I wouldn’t actually be brave enough to buy one at that price as the battery would probably be out of warranty and those early Tesla’s are known for expensive failures such as drive motors, batteries and those pesky door handles.
Although I suggested I’d go for that over a new Kona, I probably wouldn’t with my own money
The Kona price I just find hard to fathom given the price of the ICE car it’s based on.
Used Model S can be had quite often in auctions, eBay etc for £35k or less but maybe I wouldn’t actually be brave enough to buy one at that price as the battery would probably be out of warranty and those early Tesla’s are known for expensive failures such as drive motors, batteries and those pesky door handles.
Although I suggested I’d go for that over a new Kona, I probably wouldn’t with my own money
The Kona price I just find hard to fathom given the price of the ICE car it’s based on.
Smiljan said:
It’ll be interesting to hear how you get on when your Kona arrives.
Used Model S can be had quite often in auctions, eBay etc for £35k or less but maybe I wouldn’t actually be brave enough to buy one at that price as the battery would probably be out of warranty and those early Tesla’s are known for expensive failures such as drive motors, batteries and those pesky door handles.
Although I suggested I’d go for that over a new Kona, I probably wouldn’t with my own money
The Kona price I just find hard to fathom given the price of the ICE car it’s based on.
SpeakEV forum has a few owners there: the Kona is roundly applauded!Used Model S can be had quite often in auctions, eBay etc for £35k or less but maybe I wouldn’t actually be brave enough to buy one at that price as the battery would probably be out of warranty and those early Tesla’s are known for expensive failures such as drive motors, batteries and those pesky door handles.
Although I suggested I’d go for that over a new Kona, I probably wouldn’t with my own money
The Kona price I just find hard to fathom given the price of the ICE car it’s based on.
The Kona price: well, a top of the range one with paint of choice and two tone roof lists at over £25k, so the EV is around 10k more.
For now, I think that is about right: plus it does sound like the EV is much better finished.
As a bonus: it does pretty well against a decent Tesla - see https://youtu.be/inAQNHKhcrA (Bjorn is an EV guy who does LOTS of videos, worth a watch for those considering EVs, especially those not yet in this country!)
The top range ICE Kona has 4wd and a dual clutch transmission.
Throw away the cost off the engine, gearbox, drivetrain from the ICE and replace with battery and motor (2wd only) and I struggle to see where the EV version is costing all that extra money. Must be to cover development costs and a large chunk of profit?
Thanks for the tips about Bjorn, I do watch his videos but it’s mostly concentrating on charging, range and battery and very little on how the cars ride and handle. As is common with a lot of EV YouTubers they spend far too much time plugged in charging, showing charging stations and charge times etc,, I did enjoy his Model X Offroad video though.
Throw away the cost off the engine, gearbox, drivetrain from the ICE and replace with battery and motor (2wd only) and I struggle to see where the EV version is costing all that extra money. Must be to cover development costs and a large chunk of profit?
Thanks for the tips about Bjorn, I do watch his videos but it’s mostly concentrating on charging, range and battery and very little on how the cars ride and handle. As is common with a lot of EV YouTubers they spend far too much time plugged in charging, showing charging stations and charge times etc,, I did enjoy his Model X Offroad video though.
Edited by Smiljan on Wednesday 21st November 09:29
mikeiow said:
AstonZagato said:
When we bought our Tesla, it was something I encouraged my wife to look at (her driving profile suits EVs - high mileage made up lots of short journeys that usually end daily at home). She quite happily drove around in a massive Toyota Landcruiser V8.
<snip>
Oh - and she's an eminent doctor and has no need for me to buy her cars for her, so you might need to re-calibrate your "it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife" thinking.
Hang one: you just said you encouraged her to look at the Tesla....so whilst you may not have paid for it, you were 100% the reason she got one, surely!<snip>
Oh - and she's an eminent doctor and has no need for me to buy her cars for her, so you might need to re-calibrate your "it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife" thinking.
Her previous car was a Toyota Landcruiser V8. I hated it. Drives like a lorry. Sounds like a lorry. She just wanted another one (they don't sell them any more in the UK). If she could have bought one of those, we'd now have one on the drive.
Smiljan said:
Used Model S can be had quite often in auctions, eBay etc for £35k or less but maybe I wouldn’t actually be brave enough to buy one at that price as the battery would probably be out of warranty and those early Tesla’s are known for expensive failures such as drive motors, batteries and those pesky door handles.
Unless its been crash damaged all current UK Teslas are still within the 8 year battery/motor warranty, infact the first cars out of warranty will not be untill 2022. The warranty is also intact regardless of servicing.Rest of the car is covered by 4 year 50K warranty, but the door handles are a known fault so Tesla have been replacing for free even for cars beyond the original warranty.
gangzoom said:
Unless its been crash damaged all current UK Teslas are still within the 8 year battery/motor warranty, infact the first cars out of warranty will not be untill 2022. The warranty is also intact regardless of servicing.
Rest of the car is covered by 4 year 50K warranty, but the door handles are a known fault so Tesla have been replacing for free even for cars beyond the original warranty.
Thanks for that, that's a great warranty Rest of the car is covered by 4 year 50K warranty, but the door handles are a known fault so Tesla have been replacing for free even for cars beyond the original warranty.
AstonZagato said:
mikeiow said:
AstonZagato said:
When we bought our Tesla, it was something I encouraged my wife to look at (her driving profile suits EVs - high mileage made up lots of short journeys that usually end daily at home). She quite happily drove around in a massive Toyota Landcruiser V8.
<snip>
Oh - and she's an eminent doctor and has no need for me to buy her cars for her, so you might need to re-calibrate your "it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife" thinking.
Hang one: you just said you encouraged her to look at the Tesla....so whilst you may not have paid for it, you were 100% the reason she got one, surely!<snip>
Oh - and she's an eminent doctor and has no need for me to buy her cars for her, so you might need to re-calibrate your "it’s men buying Tesla’s for their wife" thinking.
Her previous car was a Toyota Landcruiser V8. I hated it. Drives like a lorry. Sounds like a lorry. She just wanted another one (they don't sell them any more in the UK). If she could have bought one of those, we'd now have one on the drive.
The implication really is that she has not got enough interest in vehicles to do the research that would have taken her there....& I suspect that is true for many (not all !!) women.
Mine certainly doesn't care enough, but is very interested in going electric, and will reluctantly come round a garage or two to look at them!
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