Toyota Mirai? Fuel Cell Vehicle
Discussion
Toaster said:
andyalan10 said:
So from the article referenced, GM, Toyota, Honda and Nissan think hydrogen is worth pursuing. Not forgetting Hyundai/Kia and various bus and train manufacturers, but a couple of blokes on an internet forum says "Oh no it isn't" whilst offering no reasons whatsoever. OK you've convinced me.
Andy
I agree, and if this small Welsh company had the mega bucks of certain Silicon valley then maybe just maybe we would have a UK Hydrogen vehicle out there right now https://www.riversimple.com/the-design-of-the-rasa...Andy
(hint, no one wants a hugely expensive cramped 2 seater, that has poor range, looks, er, a bit special, and is completely impractical. I mean, smart cars are hardly selling like hot cakes and they are cheap and look ok!)
So that's an hour of my time wasted going down rabbit holes on the web.
I'm no clearer on why some people on here insist hydrogen is a battery, because it is a store of energy. I thought a battery was something which receives energy from electricity, otherwise all fuels are "batteries" from oil to trees. Of course that does make the argument that BEVs are the future correct, if all fuel sources are batteries.
And interestingly the Wikipedia pages on Fuel cell vehicles are mainly anything up to a decade out of date, so now I'm fascinated as to why there is so much uncritical hype about Lithium-Ion BEVs and so little current information about Fuel Cell development.
The other thing I found in my surfing was this:-
"At the end of 2017, there were 56 hydrogen refuelling stations in Germany, of which 45 are publicly accessible (or with previous notice)".
From https://www.tuv-sud.com/news-media/news-archive/ge...
So either the anecdote about hydrogen refuelling near Stuttgart is very dated, or always just contained wrong information.
I'm no clearer on why some people on here insist hydrogen is a battery, because it is a store of energy. I thought a battery was something which receives energy from electricity, otherwise all fuels are "batteries" from oil to trees. Of course that does make the argument that BEVs are the future correct, if all fuel sources are batteries.
And interestingly the Wikipedia pages on Fuel cell vehicles are mainly anything up to a decade out of date, so now I'm fascinated as to why there is so much uncritical hype about Lithium-Ion BEVs and so little current information about Fuel Cell development.
The other thing I found in my surfing was this:-
"At the end of 2017, there were 56 hydrogen refuelling stations in Germany, of which 45 are publicly accessible (or with previous notice)".
From https://www.tuv-sud.com/news-media/news-archive/ge...
So either the anecdote about hydrogen refuelling near Stuttgart is very dated, or always just contained wrong information.
Battery - ' a combination of apparatus for producing a single electrical effect'
Hydrogen is a way to store electricity. It doesnt hang around naturally in abundance so we can just throw it in a car and exploit it like petrol/oil.
We have to generate it and we do that either from natural gas or electricity.
So Hydrogen we have is basically stored energy.
But its terribly inefficient compared to just taking that electricity and storing it in lithium batteries.
As for up to date FCEVs have a look at the nexo i mentioned above, released this year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW7TFXwduYY
[i]Japan thought h2 cars would be the future because they used to have basically free hydrogen from nuclear, they dont any more.
Hydrogen is a way to store electricity. It doesnt hang around naturally in abundance so we can just throw it in a car and exploit it like petrol/oil.
We have to generate it and we do that either from natural gas or electricity.
So Hydrogen we have is basically stored energy.
But its terribly inefficient compared to just taking that electricity and storing it in lithium batteries.
As for up to date FCEVs have a look at the nexo i mentioned above, released this year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW7TFXwduYY
[i]Japan thought h2 cars would be the future because they used to have basically free hydrogen from nuclear, they dont any more.
RobDickinson said:
Yes.
The disadvantages of BEVs are fewer and reducing, the disadvantages of FCEV are not.
None of the BEV's disadvantages are reducing. There are ton of problems which we can't solve at the moment, biggest issue is of course enviromental issues, price and availability. Toyota Mirai is actually very good first effort. It is cheaper than tesla, has more range and it offers decent room for passengers and gargo.The disadvantages of BEVs are fewer and reducing, the disadvantages of FCEV are not.
Next Mirai will be a big thing. It will be same for FCV what Prius was for hybrids.
Max_Torque said:
er, nope, not that one either!
(hint, no one wants a hugely expensive cramped 2 seater, that has poor range, looks, er, a bit special, and is completely impractical. I mean, smart cars are hardly selling like hot cakes and they are cheap and look ok!)
Hmmm didn’t Tesla start with a cramped 2 seater are you sure it’s not vision and passion to seek an alternative you lack (hint, no one wants a hugely expensive cramped 2 seater, that has poor range, looks, er, a bit special, and is completely impractical. I mean, smart cars are hardly selling like hot cakes and they are cheap and look ok!)
RobDickinson said:
Battery - ' a combination of apparatus for producing a single electrical effect'
Hydrogen is a way to store electricity. It doesnt hang around naturally in abundance so we can just throw it in a car and exploit it like petrol/oil.
We have to generate it and we do that either from natural gas or electricity.
So Hydrogen we have is basically stored energy.
But its terribly inefficient compared to just taking that electricity and storing it in lithium batteries.
As for up to date FCEVs have a look at the nexo i mentioned above, released this year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW7TFXwduYY
[i]Japan thought h2 cars would be the future because they used to have basically free hydrogen from nuclear, they dont any more.
Do tell where does Lithium come from and I suspect the extraction and transport process doesn’t use fairy dust. Lithium also comes at a cost. Hydrogen is a way to store electricity. It doesnt hang around naturally in abundance so we can just throw it in a car and exploit it like petrol/oil.
We have to generate it and we do that either from natural gas or electricity.
So Hydrogen we have is basically stored energy.
But its terribly inefficient compared to just taking that electricity and storing it in lithium batteries.
As for up to date FCEVs have a look at the nexo i mentioned above, released this year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW7TFXwduYY
[i]Japan thought h2 cars would be the future because they used to have basically free hydrogen from nuclear, they dont any more.
Toaster said:
98elise said:
Hydrogen is an energy store, not a fuel (so its battery), with the added benefit of being very very inefficient. If you think BEV's will impact the grid, imagine something that needs 3x the energy
Hydrogen has to be stored at massive pressures (700 bar/10000 psi).
It leaks out of everything, and it's very flammable.
It degrades metals it comes into contact with.
Fuel cells are crap at delivering sudden peaks in power, so you also need batteries.
Nobody has been able to build one that's commercially viable (last time I checked the cost to build was over 100k per car)
I could keep going but those alone shows it's a dead end.
Maybe your right maybe your not, but its great to see there are some willing to give it a go. Edited to say, no batteries involved just capacitors Hydrogen has to be stored at massive pressures (700 bar/10000 psi).
It leaks out of everything, and it's very flammable.
It degrades metals it comes into contact with.
Fuel cells are crap at delivering sudden peaks in power, so you also need batteries.
Nobody has been able to build one that's commercially viable (last time I checked the cost to build was over 100k per car)
I could keep going but those alone shows it's a dead end.
The reason people no longer really make any effort to ridicule hydrogen is because it has been ridiculed to death for years as a joke of a 'fuel' for cars.
As we have said already on this thread the reasons some car companies are awkwardly continuing to push it is that they have invested billions in it and have been caught out by EV tech.
Also a whole thread could (and maybe should) be started on what a total scam that Welsh car is. If you want to know more about it SpeakEV is just a search result away.
LasseV said:
None of the BEV's disadvantages are reducing. There are ton of problems which we can't solve at the moment, biggest issue is of course enviromental issues, price and availability. Toyota Mirai is actually very good first effort. It is cheaper than tesla, has more range and it offers decent room for passengers and gargo.
.
.
We need a bit of heart and soul in this debate https://youtu.be/e0qzaMtqM-Y before every one dies of boredom
Toaster said:
We need a bit of heart and soul in this debate https://youtu.be/e0qzaMtqM-Y before every one dies of boredom
"Proud To Be Neanderthal" could be the slogan.Toaster said:
We need a bit of heart and soul in this debate https://youtu.be/e0qzaMtqM-Y before every one dies of boredom
https://youtu.be/B8bV8SKeQOoRobDickinson said:
Toaster said:
We need a bit of heart and soul in this debate https://youtu.be/e0qzaMtqM-Y before every one dies of boredom
https://youtu.be/B8bV8SKeQOoandyalan10 said:
I'm no clearer on why some people on here insist hydrogen is a battery, because it is a store of energy. I thought a battery was something which receives energy from electricity, otherwise all fuels are "batteries" from oil to trees. Of course that does make the argument that BEVs are the future correct, if all fuel sources are batteries.
It's an energy store like battery, not a fuel. A fuel already contains energy, which can be harvested for less energy expended. Oil for example contains more energy than is used to obtain it. It is a fuel.Hydrogen has to be cracked using another energy source, and will always produce less energy than was put in. The energy available only comes from the energy put in, and is always significantly less.
If that wasn't the case then you would have a perpetual motion machine.
Edited to add....
This Wikipedia article on fuel describes the difference in the first section
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel
Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 19th December 19:25
Plug Life said:
Toaster said:
We need a bit of heart and soul in this debate https://youtu.be/e0qzaMtqM-Y before every one dies of boredom
"Proud To Be Neanderthal" could be the slogan.I can't say that I think hydrogen fuel cell cars will outsell EVs in the near future. However, if there is a refuelling Infrastructure I feel it has a role to play as a fuel for long-range vehicles such as big lorries (see Nikola trucks).
A fair few of us winge that renewable energy production isn't predictable enough. What if excess production is used to produce hydrogen by electrolysis? Liquid hydrogen could be stored and used like petrol or diesel is now, to fill in the gaps when the sun's not shining or the wind' s not blowing hard enough.
A fair few of us winge that renewable energy production isn't predictable enough. What if excess production is used to produce hydrogen by electrolysis? Liquid hydrogen could be stored and used like petrol or diesel is now, to fill in the gaps when the sun's not shining or the wind' s not blowing hard enough.
Europa Jon said:
However, if there is a refuelling Infrastructure I feel it has a role to play as a fuel for long-range vehicles such as big lorries (see Nikola trucks).
I agree with that, IMO the cost of refueling stations and the total lack of infrastructure and much better technology means BEvs will be a better choice for small road transport, but for shipping etc I think Hydrogen has a place for sure. For excess energy storage there is a bunch of competing tech and I dont know where h2 production sits on the efficiency scale there, I did see a house built using solar and h2 storage in USA a few years ago, the system cost $300k then but worked well, though lithium or flow batteries would work just as well as you dont typically need to store energy for months
Europa Jon said:
I can't say that I think hydrogen fuel cell cars will outsell EVs in the near future. However, if there is a refuelling Infrastructure I feel it has a role to play as a fuel for long-range vehicles such as big lorries (see Nikola trucks).
But why spend money on a truck that costs 4* as much to run as the Tesla semi?jjwilde said:
But why spend money on a truck that costs 4* as much to run as the Tesla semi?
Inertia. Until recently having a big truck powered by batteries was unpossible. Even earlier this year daimler benz was slagging tesla semi off because it was unpossible. https://electrek.co/2018/02/21/tesla-semi-defies-l...The pace of change on batteries, cost, availability and energy density has moved faster than what these people ever imagined it could.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff