Toyota Mirai? Fuel Cell Vehicle

Toyota Mirai? Fuel Cell Vehicle

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Discussion

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Thursday 20th December 2018
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Europa Jon said:
I can't say that I think hydrogen fuel cell cars will outsell EVs in the near future. However, if there is a refuelling Infrastructure I feel it has a role to play as a fuel for long-range vehicles such as big lorries (see Nikola trucks).
A fair few of us winge that renewable energy production isn't predictable enough. What if excess production is used to produce hydrogen by electrolysis? Liquid hydrogen could be stored and used like petrol or diesel is now, to fill in the gaps when the sun's not shining or the wind' s not blowing hard enough.
Batteries can do the same only much more efficiently. They can also instantly feed back into the grid. You don-t even need a dedicated battery as EV's could provide that store.

This is all possible now with little infrastructure change. Hydrogen needs a new infrastructure and filling stations run into the millions, while a electric charger is 10's of thousands.

The only benefit is speed of filling, and that's something that will change with EV's.

Edited to add...

100km range in added in 3 minutes by porsche on a test vehicle.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/282364-bmw-por...


Edited by 98elise on Thursday 20th December 07:59

jjwilde

1,904 posts

95 months

Thursday 20th December 2018
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It should also be pointed out that all this fill as fast as petrol isn't accurate, owners in California are reporting it's actually more like ~6-10 minutes (plus the drive to the station). Also, incredibly, they suffer from similar incompatibility issues just like EVs. You not only have to find a hydrogen station, you have to find one which supports the compression ratio for your car if you want to fill it.

Edited by jjwilde on Thursday 20th December 13:02


Edited by jjwilde on Thursday 20th December 13:03

amstrange1

599 posts

175 months

Thursday 20th December 2018
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RobDickinson said:
Inertia. Until recently having a big truck powered by batteries was unpossible. Even earlier this year daimler benz was slagging tesla semi off because it was unpossible. https://electrek.co/2018/02/21/tesla-semi-defies-l...

The pace of change on batteries, cost, availability and energy density has moved faster than what these people ever imagined it could.
There's still no evidence that Tesla are achieving the claimed range in any of Electrek's articles. Achieving Vmax, accel and gradeability is all vanilla stuff - the industry is clearly doubting that Tesla can fit enough battery capacity in there to achieve the claimed range for a given price point and vehicle mass.

jjwilde

1,904 posts

95 months

Thursday 20th December 2018
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amstrange1 said:
There's still no evidence that Tesla are achieving the claimed range in any of Electrek's articles. Achieving Vmax, accel and gradeability is all vanilla stuff - the industry is clearly doubting that Tesla can fit enough battery capacity in there to achieve the claimed range for a given price point and vehicle mass.
Tesla have driven it coast to coast to show it off to people who have preordered it. It is possible the beta version has a lower than 500 mile range sure, but I'm sure Tesla will quite happily lose money on these to capture the market and eventually make profit.

A few hundred lorries sold at a loss is not really going to bother them in the greater scheme they have.

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Friday 21st December 2018
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jjwilde said:
Europa Jon said:
I can't say that I think hydrogen fuel cell cars will outsell EVs in the near future. However, if there is a refuelling Infrastructure I feel it has a role to play as a fuel for long-range vehicles such as big lorries (see Nikola trucks).
But why spend money on a truck that costs 4* as much to run as the Tesla semi?
Because it might be cheaper by other metrics.

Hydrogen is a complete non starter for typical car use and as everyone points out the li battery is just simply better and cheaper. But there is a reason as to why major companies continue to invest some money into HFC and while the above argument that Japanese culture might play a part in not killing off a dead end project from 20 years ago the true reason is that there are likely to be some transport niches where li batteries are not the most profitable solution.

If we look at HGV’s then we know that fueling costs play a large part but we also know that time plays a larger part. Also, there is the factor or initial capital outlay v running costs. And a key factor could transpire to be weight.

So, in economic terms the HGV that can stop and refuel in just a few minutes akin to the current diesel system may have a profit advantage over a battery powered vehicle that takes much longer to refuel.

It may be that a HFC HGV costs significantly less to finance than an EV and that has a huge impact on calculating true running costs.

But I think that one major advantage could transpire to be weight. Old cities and towns with old infrastructure may have to restrict the size of EV HGVs so as to keep their weight down. Maybe a HFC vehicle is much lighter so can be much larger for the same weight limit which will hugely skew the costs in its favour.

It is possible to imagine all freight bound for a city like London to have to stop at the borders and be lifted off diesel powered transport onto electric for its final run into the city? It may be that these hubs are much more time and load efficient by using HFC vehicles than Li ones?

Maybe HFC are a solution to permitting EVs to have smaller battery packs that are cheaper and more environmentally friendly in the low mileage urban environment while allowing the same car to fuel up for city to city long distance journeys? A zero emission hybrid etc.

I just think firms are trickling a few funds into the sector because it is a hedge against pure EVs not being the most commercially profitable zero emission solution in some niche applications.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 21st December 2018
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DonkeyApple said:
So, in economic terms the HGV that can stop and refuel in just a few minutes akin to the current diesel system may have a profit advantage over a battery powered vehicle that takes much longer to refuel.

Most HGVs are not "double shifted" and are driven by a single driver, and the law sets out how many hours can be driven before a break is required (ie time to charge as well). of course, as autonomy starts to break into this sector, then that may well change......

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Friday 21st December 2018
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Max_Torque said:
Most HGVs are not "double shifted" and are driven by a single driver, and the law sets out how many hours can be driven before a break is required (ie time to charge as well). of course, as autonomy starts to break into this sector, then that may well change......
Agreed but a lot of HGV appear to currently make use of lay-bys not just dedicated sex parks so there might be an issue with regards to fitting multiple charge points at lay-bys. The Tesla truck seems to have a range of 500 miles whereas a diesel truck can have up to 2000 so it seems plausible that there would be very different economics between running an EV haulage firm v a diesel one.

Would HFC assist in bridging that difference? Would it allow for lighter battery packs combined with more flexible refuelling strategies?

Or is HFC tech just as heavy as Li batteries? I’ve no idea.

jjwilde

1,904 posts

95 months

Friday 21st December 2018
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DonkeyApple said:
Agreed but a lot of HGV appear to currently make use of lay-bys not just dedicated sex parks so there might be an issue with regards to fitting multiple charge points at lay-bys. The Tesla truck seems to have a range of 500 miles whereas a diesel truck can have up to 2000 so it seems plausible that there would be very different economics between running an EV haulage firm v a diesel one.

Would HFC assist in bridging that difference? Would it allow for lighter battery packs combined with more flexible refuelling strategies?

Or is HFC tech just as heavy as Li batteries? I’ve no idea.
It's certainly far more complex and has far more points of failure. A HFC lorry would be far more expensive to buy than an electric one that's for sure.

As for weight, well we will have to wait and see, Tesla seem to have got the weight of theirs down quite well.

Refuelling times is an unknown, Tesla say an hour, but calculating the HFC filling is sort of unknown, I actually don't know just how fast you can force hydrogen in to a series of tanks. But some back of a note pad calculations seem to point to about half an hour.

However the biggest thing, the running cost, will be a non-starter for a HFC as hydrogen is absurdly expensive, and no, there isn't some magic way to make this cheaper, it requires enormous amounts of electricity to make hydrogen.

Actually the more you learn about HFC vehicles the more it just seems absolutely bizarre, however you can see why back in the 80s they thought it might work, before lithium ion batteries.

JoJBuckwalter

1 posts

62 months

Friday 18th January 2019
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I do not understand why there is so much hate on hydrogen vehicles. It is much safer and efficient than gasoline. It has zero emission, no carbon dioxide emission to be specific. Hydrogen can be produced from renewable energy.
Germany has even started running Hydrogen Fuel Cell Train.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Friday 18th January 2019
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Hydrogen can be, but it isn't.

It's just a stealth fossil fuel at the moment.

Still has the clean local air etc but there's too many problems with not going away with them.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Friday 18th January 2019
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JoJBuckwalter said:
I do not understand why there is so much hate on hydrogen vehicles. It is much safer and efficient than gasoline.
Citation needed. As far as I know end-to-end efficiency is a fraction of that of a petrol car.

Hydrogen might make sense if we can ever get nuclear fusion working on an industrial scale but as long as there is a significant environmental and financial cost to electricity it's a complete non-starter for mass personal transport.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th January 09:51

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 18th January 2019
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JoJBuckwalter said:
I do not understand
EFA!



jjwilde

1,904 posts

95 months

Friday 18th January 2019
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We really need a sticky post to stop the same myths being put in this forum.

Explanation of why hydrogen is a bad idea/inefficient.

Link to national grids pamphlet on why the grid CAN cope if we all go EV.

Links to prove you don't need to replace the battery on an electric car every 2-3 years.

Etc.

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Friday 18th January 2019
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JoJBuckwalter said:
I do not understand why there is so much hate on hydrogen vehicles. It is much safer and efficient than gasoline. It has zero emission, no carbon dioxide emission to be specific. Hydrogen can be produced from renewable energy.
Germany has even started running Hydrogen Fuel Cell Train.
Hydrogen is an energy store just like a battery, only much much less efficient.

It's not suited to sudden demands for power (ie basic requirement for acceleration)

It's a bd to store (10,000 psi), leaks out of everything, and damages metal.

It needs an entirely new infrastructure, and if it was commonplace more power stations.

The only perceived benefit is filling time, and that's a narrowing gap.

The physics of hydrogen are not going to change.

Edited by 98elise on Friday 18th January 16:47

Toaster

2,938 posts

192 months

Wednesday 23rd January 2019
quotequote all
Clearly some companies think its a good idea

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/meet-m...

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-rival-kenwort...

Oh and Running costs https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/mirai/...


Edited by Toaster on Wednesday 23 January 17:06

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Saturday 2nd February 2019
quotequote all
Toaster said:
Clearly some companies think its a good idea

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/meet-m...

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-rival-kenwort...

Oh and Running costs https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/mirai/...


Edited by Toaster on Wednesday 23 January 17:06
A bunch of prototype hydrogen trucks with a claimed range of 300 miles - in what aspect are they an advance on the Tesla Semi?

Running costs of the Mirai don't look great either - they say fuelling costs the same as a conventional petrol car. So £70 or so for 300 miles..

Toaster

2,938 posts

192 months

Saturday 2nd February 2019
quotequote all
rscott said:
A bunch of prototype hydrogen trucks with a claimed range of 300 miles - in what aspect are they an advance on the Tesla Semi?

Running costs of the Mirai don't look great either - they say fuelling costs the same as a conventional petrol car. So £70 or so for 300 miles..
Many People now live in apartments with limited parking and no Hookup's either because they are renting or the landlord won't invest. This is a viable alternative (as this section says EV and alternatives) Some people use Petrol, some diesel, some use Gas, and a minority use battery tech (of which some are Tesla). Dont be blind sighted to alternatives being prototypes or not, some on these forums have said Hydrogen will never be viable, maybe, maybe not. Betamax was once the shining star of the video age.

jjwilde

1,904 posts

95 months

Saturday 2nd February 2019
quotequote all
Toaster said:
Many People now live in apartments with limited parking and no Hookup's either because they are renting or the landlord won't invest. This is a viable alternative (as this section says EV and alternatives) Some people use Petrol, some diesel, some use Gas, and a minority use battery tech (of which some are Tesla). Dont be blind sighted to alternatives being prototypes or not, some on these forums have said Hydrogen will never be viable, maybe, maybe not. Betamax was once the shining star of the video age.
If you actually spent 20minutes researching why hydrogen won't work then you might understand...

Also, if you didn't have a charger at home you could also just go and rapid charge for 20 minutes, I'm pretty certain the electric rapid charger will be far closer than finding a hydrogen one.

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Saturday 2nd February 2019
quotequote all
rscott said:
Toaster said:
Clearly some companies think its a good idea

https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/meet-m...

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-rival-kenwort...

Oh and Running costs https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/mirai/...


Edited by Toaster on Wednesday 23 January 17:06
A bunch of prototype hydrogen trucks with a claimed range of 300 miles - in what aspect are they an advance on the Tesla Semi?

Running costs of the Mirai don't look great either - they say fuelling costs the same as a conventional petrol car. So £70 or so for 300 miles..
It only costs the same because it's not taxed like petrol. If we all switched to hydrogen tomorrow then it would be subject to fuel tax.