Self charging hybrids. Why?
Discussion
Itchy feet and a second dog has got me looking for a new car. Currently in a very good diesel, but the extra space needed meant I thought I’d go with the times and look at a hybrid suv type thing. The Lexus NX300h was the obvious choice (I thought) as my commute is 12 miles each way.
I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall, even when driven gently. So what is the point of them. You don’t seem to gain any of the advantages of electric, but gain a whole load of weight.
A plug in is the obvious solution, but choice is very limited for the class of vehicle I’m looking at. All electric is out because I need to make motorway journeys every so often and I can’t be faffed with the range anxiety thing.
I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall, even when driven gently. So what is the point of them. You don’t seem to gain any of the advantages of electric, but gain a whole load of weight.
A plug in is the obvious solution, but choice is very limited for the class of vehicle I’m looking at. All electric is out because I need to make motorway journeys every so often and I can’t be faffed with the range anxiety thing.
I had one. I explained it to my friends like KERS in an F1. Mine was a fancy BMW 3 series called Active Hybrid 3. You could do almost 35mph in whisper mode if you were very gentle on the throttle but 3 miles max. I got bored of it quickly.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I think that having the battery overcome the initial inertia moving the car helps with real mpg. this seems especially the case with buses where the engine always restarts after 20metres, but at least several tonnes is in motion by then. I agree that the numbers aren't great for cars though.
I'm interested in the new Rav4 hybrid that seems to offer real world mpg gains and good power/torque too.
It's still early days for lower cost vehicles.
I'm interested in the new Rav4 hybrid that seems to offer real world mpg gains and good power/torque too.
It's still early days for lower cost vehicles.
I think the problem is how much of the car's gubbins you commit to this. Mine had a small battery and probably had a small brake energy harvesting system. You could feel the brake pedal change from harvesting only to proper old school brake pads and discs. The point is if you only harvest a bit of energy then you don't have a lot to power the car. Then if you only have a small elec motor and a small battery and so on.
For someone like me, who has on-street permit parking only, a hybrid is the closest I can get to an EV vehicle. Self charging means no range anxiety, no plugging in or charging to worry about and even on a motorway journey, the final section can be done mostly on battery. That really brings the overall journey MPG up.
The power train is definitely Marmite, but I love it. It is buttery smooth, really easy in start/stop traffic and running without the engine on makes for a very relaxing drive. My other car is a V8 BMW and my driving style is totally different in each car. Generally, I prefer the hybrid because I like the way I drive it. I thought I'd miss the V8 power, but I really don't.
The power train is definitely Marmite, but I love it. It is buttery smooth, really easy in start/stop traffic and running without the engine on makes for a very relaxing drive. My other car is a V8 BMW and my driving style is totally different in each car. Generally, I prefer the hybrid because I like the way I drive it. I thought I'd miss the V8 power, but I really don't.
The Lexus hybrid setup is there to enable the combustion engine to run a more efficient but torque deprived Atkinson cycle. The electric motor helps to hide the lack of torque.
Infact the thermal efficiency of the current generation Lexus/Toyota hybrids are better than diesel engines. Which translates to real world performance. Our IS300H hybrid is averaging 45mpg in winter and short trips, long trips I see 50-55mpg. This is better efficency than our old diesel Civic.
The 'self charging' bit is pure marketing spin.
I've been itching to replace my wifes Lexus hybrid for a pure EV, but the realities of life mean once every few months we do a long distance trip which the Lexus will cover with no issues but even in a £90k 100D Model S we'll be faffing with charging and stopping mid way.
Add to that the Lexus costs £10/year road tax, good residuals,zero reliability worries at all, and fuel costs of sub £100/month due to low milleage/good efficency financially keeping the Lexus is a no brainer.
IF Lexus did make an EV however I would get one without a second thought, and probably one of the few brands I would swap out of the Tesla for. For reliability Lexus is untouchable, the engine bay of our IS still looks brand new after nearly 4 years!!!
I absolutely hate the lag heavy, whinning drivetrain of our IS300H, but the longer we own it the more I have to admit in many ways the Toyota/Lexus approach to improving efficency is very very good. No DPFs, no timing belts, no turbos, no cooling issues/worries. It all just works, and works very well.
But I see Lexus are finally getting on board the EV wagon. Will be very interesting to see how good it turns out. Out of all the existing compaines Toyota/Lexus have by far the most experience in EV drivetrain development and battery intergration.
The likes of VAG, Jaguar are all essentially out sourcing the battery management to LG, which I think is partly why those EVs are horrifically inefficient despite having massive batteries.
If Toyota is now ready to go full EV, along with VAG than the days of the combustion engine is really coming to an end
.
https://insideevs.com/lexus-trademark-hint-fully-e...
Infact the thermal efficiency of the current generation Lexus/Toyota hybrids are better than diesel engines. Which translates to real world performance. Our IS300H hybrid is averaging 45mpg in winter and short trips, long trips I see 50-55mpg. This is better efficency than our old diesel Civic.
The 'self charging' bit is pure marketing spin.
I've been itching to replace my wifes Lexus hybrid for a pure EV, but the realities of life mean once every few months we do a long distance trip which the Lexus will cover with no issues but even in a £90k 100D Model S we'll be faffing with charging and stopping mid way.
Add to that the Lexus costs £10/year road tax, good residuals,zero reliability worries at all, and fuel costs of sub £100/month due to low milleage/good efficency financially keeping the Lexus is a no brainer.
IF Lexus did make an EV however I would get one without a second thought, and probably one of the few brands I would swap out of the Tesla for. For reliability Lexus is untouchable, the engine bay of our IS still looks brand new after nearly 4 years!!!
I absolutely hate the lag heavy, whinning drivetrain of our IS300H, but the longer we own it the more I have to admit in many ways the Toyota/Lexus approach to improving efficency is very very good. No DPFs, no timing belts, no turbos, no cooling issues/worries. It all just works, and works very well.
But I see Lexus are finally getting on board the EV wagon. Will be very interesting to see how good it turns out. Out of all the existing compaines Toyota/Lexus have by far the most experience in EV drivetrain development and battery intergration.
The likes of VAG, Jaguar are all essentially out sourcing the battery management to LG, which I think is partly why those EVs are horrifically inefficient despite having massive batteries.
If Toyota is now ready to go full EV, along with VAG than the days of the combustion engine is really coming to an end
.https://insideevs.com/lexus-trademark-hint-fully-e...
Elroy Blue said:
I don’t like the Outlander as the interior feels a bit low rent. The Lexus seems to average about 35mpg, which is pretty pathetic when a diesel will do high 40s. I really wanted to go for it, but they just don’t seem to make economical sense
i always have a crossover in the fleet for reasons... anyway, it's always a petrol. diesels throw big bills, especially from continued short runs like ours. economical to my mind. my secondhand petrol Ravs have had no repairs in last 15 years.I would suggest that you may struggle to find a large diesel SUV that will genuinely do high 40s mpg. But even if you do, don't forget to factor in stuff like Ad-Blue, DPF, DMF and EGR costs too. The 35mpg of the Lexus begins to look a bit cheaper now...and petrol is significantly cheaper than diesel now!
Elroy Blue said:
The Lexus NX300h was the obvious choice (I thought) as my commute is 12 miles each way.
I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall.
Are you sure a diesel SUV will better 40mpg? I had a diesel XC60 for a few weeks in the summer. I wad shocked how much fuel it drank on local runs.I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall.
gangzoom said:
But I see Lexus are finally getting on board the EV wagon. Will be very interesting to see how good it turns out. Out of all the existing compaines Toyota/Lexus have by far the most experience in EV drivetrain development and battery intergration.
The likes of VAG, Jaguar are all essentially out sourcing the battery management to LG, which I think is partly why those EVs are horrifically inefficient despite having massive batteries.
If Toyota is now ready to go full EV, along with VAG than the days of the combustion engine is really coming to an end.
https://insideevs.com/lexus-trademark-hint-fully-e...
The i-Pace BMS was developed in-house, not by LG. Not sure why you think that has an affect on efficiency?? The likes of VAG, Jaguar are all essentially out sourcing the battery management to LG, which I think is partly why those EVs are horrifically inefficient despite having massive batteries.
If Toyota is now ready to go full EV, along with VAG than the days of the combustion engine is really coming to an end
.https://insideevs.com/lexus-trademark-hint-fully-e...
The trouble with Toyota is its conservatism. Their CVT hybrids are just awful imho. At least VW seems to be turning direction with the ID.
modeller said:
The i-Pace BMS was developed in-house, not by LG. Not sure why you think that has an affect on efficiency??
The trouble with Toyota is its conservatism. Their CVT hybrids are just awful imho. At least VW seems to be turning direction with the ID.
So maybe the Jaguar should have asked LG The trouble with Toyota is its conservatism. Their CVT hybrids are just awful imho. At least VW seems to be turning direction with the ID.
For what ever the reason the iPaces ability to turn electricity into motion is pretty awful, is it the most inefficient EV on sale today? Or will the Audi eTron Quattro beat that? I agree Toyota is conservative, but the hybrid system doesn't have a CVT, never did, just journalists are too lazy to learn how the system works. Despite the awful throttle lag I cannot argue with the efficiency or reliability. As much as on here we care about things like throttle response, out in the real world reliability and efficiency is far more important.
This what the engine bay of our IS looks like at present after nearly 4 years of daily use, no DPF, no timing belts, no oil use, no adbule to add, it all just works.
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 22 December 18:22
gangzoom said:
Elroy Blue said:
The Lexus NX300h was the obvious choice (I thought) as my commute is 12 miles each way.
I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall.
Are you sure a diesel SUV will better 40mpg? I had a diesel XC60 for a few weeks in the summer. I wad shocked how much fuel it drank on local runs.I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall.
Elroy Blue said:
I don’t like the Outlander as the interior feels a bit low rent. The Lexus seems to average about 35mpg, which is pretty pathetic when a diesel will do high 40s. I really wanted to go for it, but they just don’t seem to make economical sense
What diesel does high 40's?gangzoom said:
So maybe the Jaguar should have asked LG For what ever the reason the iPaces ability to turn electricity into motion is pretty awful, is it the most inefficient EV on sale today? Or will the Audi eTron Quattro beat that?
You're confusing powertrain efficiency and vehicle range again... WLTP range can be used to derive vehicle efficiency, but not that of the powertrain. Unless you've access to test rig data, you've no way of knowing whether JLR's I-Pace powertrain is horribly inefficient or not. For what ever the reason the iPaces ability to turn electricity into motion is pretty awful, is it the most inefficient EV on sale today? Or will the Audi eTron Quattro beat that?As for their BMS, they were developing their own SW and HW as part of a UK government funded consortium. As I understand it, they sourced LG for the cells and switched to the LG BMS too - albeit with a few 0s and 1s of JLR's own thrown in. That's my take based on public domain info anyway!
amstrange1 said:
You're confusing powertrain efficiency and vehicle range again... WLTP range can be used to derive vehicle efficiency, but not that of the powertrain. Unless you've access to test rig data, you've no way of knowing whether JLR's I-Pace powertrain is horribly inefficient or not.
Why not vist the EPA website and see for your self. EPA reports both range and efficiency.The iPace has more than enough range but its efficency is awful.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml
Missing the distinction between POWERTRAIN efficiency (i.e. the motor, battery, power electronics, transmission technology) and VEHICLE efficiency. The latter is influenced heavily by the weight, frontal area and drag of the vehicle - the former is not. The EPA data can only report on vehicle-level efficiency.
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