Self charging hybrids. Why?

Author
Discussion

gangzoom

6,254 posts

214 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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amstrange1 said:
Missing the distinction between POWERTRAIN efficiency (i.e. the motor, battery, power electronics, transmission technology) and VEHICLE efficiency. The latter is influenced heavily by the weight, frontal area and drag of the vehicle - the former is not. The EPA data can only report on vehicle-level efficiency.
So either Jaguar don't know how to do aero or they don't know how to do drive train, maybe both, result is the same....Is there a less efficent EV EPA have tested?

amstrange1

599 posts

175 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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gangzoom said:
So either Jaguar don't know how to do aero or they don't know how to do drive train, maybe both, result is the same....Is there a less efficent EV EPA have tested?
Nope, missing the point again. An SUV type vehicle will always be at a vehicle efficiency disadvantage compared to a saloon car. A bigger SUV will be less efficient than a smaller one (I-Pace vs Kona?).

You seem to keep citing lower WLTP (or equivalents) as proof of certain OEM's inabilities to design an EV - in doing so demonstrating a lack of understanding of the basic attribute trade-offs made when setting targets for a new vehicle. Hint: JLR will have range as an important attribute, but will have sacrificed this for refinement, driving dynamics and performance. HMC's attribute bias is very different for the Kona EV. That doesn't mean that JLR engineers are rubbish at efficiency, nor that Hyundai's are rubbish at dynamics - it just means they are designing to a different set of targets...

gangzoom

6,254 posts

214 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
quotequote all
amstrange1 said:
Nope, missing the point again. An SUV type vehicle will always be at a vehicle efficiency disadvantage compared to a saloon car. A bigger SUV will be less efficient than a smaller one (I-Pace vs Kona?).
So the iPace been a smaller car than a X on the outside and inside should be far more efficient on the EPA cycle than smile.

Forget comparing it to the Kona, thats like comparing the work of a master craftsman to a high school project, expect the highschool product costs twice as much!!

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 22 December 18:58

dmsims

6,452 posts

266 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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We are way OT but it's hard to imagine how they could have made the iPace any worse - it's dreadful

FeelingLucky

1,082 posts

163 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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Elroy Blue said:
Itchy feet and a second dog has got me looking for a new car. Currently in a very good diesel, but the extra space needed meant I thought I’d go with the times and look at a hybrid suv type thing. The Lexus NX300h was the obvious choice (I thought) as my commute is 12 miles each way.
I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall, even when driven gently. So what is the point of them. You don’t seem to gain any of the advantages of electric, but gain a whole load of weight.

A plug in is the obvious solution, but choice is very limited for the class of vehicle I’m looking at. All electric is out because I need to make motorway journeys every so often and I can’t be faffed with the range anxiety thing.
A Passat or Golf GTE would do that commute in E-mode.

Stig

11,817 posts

283 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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Have you considered the new UX? Smaller, but lighter so expect better fuel economy.

Toyota/Lexus were way ahead of the competition in predicting the demise of diesel.

Yes, ‘self charging hybrid’ is marketing, but it’s deliberate as it’s amazing how many people still don’t understand the difference between mild and full hybrids, PHEVs and EVs.

NX is a great car by the way.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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The point of self charging hybrids is to try con the public into thinking they are some kind of ev the media is talking about rather than investing in building actual ev's.

Toyota should be prosecuted over the term its pure bullst advertising.

ATM

18,099 posts

218 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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ATM said:
gangzoom said:
Elroy Blue said:
The Lexus NX300h was the obvious choice (I thought) as my commute is 12 miles each way.
I didn’t realise they can barely manage half a mile on electric only and all the reviews suggest you’re very lucky to manage 40mpg overall.
Are you sure a diesel SUV will better 40mpg? I had a diesel XC60 for a few weeks in the summer. I wad shocked how much fuel it drank on local runs.

Quite a few full size SUV now come with 4 pot 2 litre diesel engines. Range rover sport for example. Surely that can struggle along at 40 mpg.
Land Rover claims the SD4 will manage 45.6mpg on the combined cycle, while CO2 emissions stand at 172g/km.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/motors/reviews...

kurokawa

584 posts

107 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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gangzoom said:
Are you sure a diesel SUV will better 40mpg? I had a diesel XC60 for a few weeks in the summer. I wad shocked how much fuel it drank on local runs.

have a first gen XC60 2.0 D4, 50% of both average me 38.2MPG
unfortunately toyota hybrid arent really that much better either, rent auris hybird for 2 weeks with 70% motorway still only get me roughly 52 mpg

Elroy Blue

Original Poster:

8,686 posts

191 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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Friends 2.2 diesel CRV get 40mpg daily and in high 40s on the motorway. The main disappointment for me was that you can't run the Lexus on the electric motor for any useful distance. It would've been the ideal vehicle if it was possible, particular as I quite like the styling.

Stig

11,817 posts

283 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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RobDickinson said:
The point of self charging hybrids is to try con the public into thinking they are some kind of ev the media is talking about rather than investing in building actual ev's.

Toyota should be prosecuted over the term its pure bullst advertising.
So please explain, how should they describe them?

dmsims

6,452 posts

266 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
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Elroy Blue said:
Friends 2.2 diesel CRV get 40mpg daily and in high 40s on the motorway. The main disappointment for me was that you can't run the Lexus on the electric motor for any useful distance. It would've been the ideal vehicle if it was possible, particular as I quite like the styling.
Ahh the diesel Nigel wker argument

nothing like comparing the average MPG of the Lexus vs a Motorway mpg for a completely different car rolleyes

Elroy Blue

Original Poster:

8,686 posts

191 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
quotequote all
dmsims said:
Ahh the diesel Nigel wker argument

nothing like comparing the average MPG of the Lexus vs a Motorway mpg for a completely different car rolleyes
Why do all PH threads turn into this. I started this thread because I was disappointed to see that a Lexus NX hybrid couldn't do what I thought it could and offered average MPG. Someone then asked what diesel SUV can achieve high 40s and I answered.
I'm comparing two similar sized SUVs. One of which I thought would offer extra range because it's a hybrid. They both offer the same MPG around town and on the m/way, so it's perfectly valid to compare them.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
quotequote all
Stig said:
So please explain, how should they describe them?
Just hybrid like the last 10 plus years without trying to confuse the market and convince unknowing punters they are ev's.

Stig

11,817 posts

283 months

Saturday 22nd December 2018
quotequote all
RobDickinson said:
Stig said:
So please explain, how should they describe them?
Just hybrid like the last 10 plus years without trying to confuse the market and convince unknowing punters they are ev's.
In fairness, that’s too simplistic. There are full hybrids, mild hybrids and PHEVs, not to mention FCEVs.

You appear to believe that there is some sort of duplicitous marketing going on, but the reality is that they are accurately described as self charging hybrids. They rely on the ICE to top up the battery - ergo, they self charge (albeit using fossil fuel to do so).

I fail to see the ‘deception’?

dmsims

6,452 posts

266 months

Sunday 23rd December 2018
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Elroy Blue said:
dmsims said:
Ahh the diesel Nigel wker argument

nothing like comparing the average MPG of the Lexus vs a Motorway mpg for a completely different car rolleyes
Why do all PH threads turn into this. I started this thread because I was disappointed to see that a Lexus NX hybrid couldn't do what I thought it could and offered average MPG. Someone then asked what diesel SUV can achieve high 40s and I answered.
I'm comparing two similar sized SUVs. One of which I thought would offer extra range because it's a hybrid. They both offer the same MPG around town and on the m/way, so it's perfectly valid to compare them.
Let's ignore the fact that the CR-V is lighter, less powerful and a lot slower

Running the CR-V is going to cost you about £50 more p.a. rofl

Elroy Blue

Original Poster:

8,686 posts

191 months

Sunday 23rd December 2018
quotequote all
dmsims said:
Let's ignore the fact that the CR-V is lighter, less powerful and a lot slower

Running the CR-V is going to cost you about £50 more p.a. rofl
I didn't realise I had to do a full 'Whst Car' comparison. They are both a similar size and are suitable for a family of four and two dogs. (And on checking, there's only a couple of bhp between them)

Now back to topic. I do think they market the cars heavily on their EV aspect. It was only when I started researching the Lexus I discovered it had no realistic capability to run on Ev power alone. I'm not quite sure why they include an EV button to keep it running on battery alone, because it appears you'll get as far as the end of the street.
One you start looking into the differences, EV vehicles aren't confusing, but I do wonder how many people buy without doing their research

BBYeah

326 posts

182 months

Sunday 23rd December 2018
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The Toyota hybrid system is great around town. Quiet, much better economy than a diesel and no choking dogs, cats, birds, adults and children on diesel smog.

I drive a diesel estate in a city and can’t wait to be rid of it. I often consider going back to Toyota rather than an ev, until battery prices drop.

gangzoom

6,254 posts

214 months

Sunday 23rd December 2018
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Elroy Blue said:
Friends 2.2 diesel CRV get 40mpg daily and in high 40s on the motorway. The main disappointment for me was that you can't run the Lexus on the electric motor for any useful distance. It would've been the ideal vehicle if it was possible, particular as I quite like the styling.
Don't think of the Lexus/Toyota system as any kind of EV, more a very good alternative to diesels.

True serial/parallel hybrids actually make little to sense, as they arent very good EVs or combustion cars.

If you want a pure EV choices are growing by the day, Kona, Niro, iPace, Model X, eTron Quattro. Looks like Lexus will also be making a pure EV soonish.

ATM

18,099 posts

218 months

Sunday 23rd December 2018
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ATM said:
I had one. I explained it to my friends like KERS in an F1. Mine was a fancy BMW 3 series called Active Hybrid 3. You could do almost 35mph in whisper mode if you were very gentle on the throttle but 3 miles max. I got bored of it quickly.


https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...


I'll be honest a lot of these acronyms have lost me. If I may loop back round to the hybrid I had - mentioned above. It could not do plug in charging. It could drive on elec only for a couple of miles if charge available. It would do elec and fossil combined if you gunned it. It could harvest from braking or engine. What acronyms therefore applied to it?