Self charging hybrids. Why?

Author
Discussion

FWIW

3,042 posts

96 months

Tuesday 25th December 2018
quotequote all
chrisgeary said:
As a private owner of one, I like the smooth transmission, the quiet engine (mostly), the diesel like mpg but without the emissions, the battery running in town, the relaxing serene drive, zero tax... I could go on.
Fair enough, but does it work for you financially?

gangzoom

6,254 posts

214 months

Tuesday 25th December 2018
quotequote all
FWIW said:
Fair enough, but does it work for you financially?
Our Lexus IS300H is MORE economical than our old diesel Civic in all situations, despite the Lexus been quicker and stuffed full of toys.

With no worries about turbos, emission systems, and legendary Toyota build quality economically as a long-term ownership prospect its hard to argue with.

Despite been an early 2015 car ours has adaptive cruise control, automated emergency braking, lane keep assist, rear cross traffic monitoring, along with a decent stereo. Essentially all the toys you want in a new car.

Trust me I'm trying very hard to use man maths to help facilitate swapping the Lexus out for a Tesla Model 3. But the more I do the maths the more its becoming obvious to me keeping the Lexus is by far the most sensible financial decision.

Looking at WBAC value the Lexus has lost 50% value coming up to 4 year - roughly £350/month, and going fowards deprecation really slows, the swapping now for brand new car is financial maddness.

Probably the most important bit though, I only drive the thing once a month to fill it up, with the occasional long Mway trip a couple times a year. My wife who uses it daily cannot even notice the awful throttle lag, and odd nosie it makes when accelerating is no worse than the Civic. So the only things that really annoy me about the Lexus I hardly ever have to experience smile.

So in summary just like all the other people who have owned a Toyota/Lexus hybrid, its hard to fault them, especially when compared to a diesel. Personally I cannot why you would get a diesel SUV over a NX300H.


Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 25th December 21:54

DJP31

232 posts

103 months

Tuesday 25th December 2018
quotequote all
FWIW said:
DJP31 said:
This is why the Gov have scrapped the EV allowance on these types of cars. They’ve largely been bought by people looking solely at BIK rates, exactly as posted here. It’s a shame for the few people that bought them for genuine “green” reasons but can’t blame the company car driver whose just looking for min tax impact.
There are hardly any genuine green benefits the way I see it...unless you only do 20 or so miles a day.
True, and plenty of people do only drive that in a day.

Jonny_

4,108 posts

206 months

Tuesday 8th January 2019
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Otispunkmeyer said:
The engines on Toyota/Lexus hybrids do start up quick (the gains are to be had using the EV mode at the end of the trip). When they fire on the first time though they basically do a high idle with a small load variation to get warm (warm up cycle at 1300rpm ). At that point the battery is still powering the wheels, the generator unit is sending some power as well but the engine won't drive the wheels unless you really step on it.

I have a Prius and I'm an automotive engineer. It's a really nicely done system. It's not a CVT it's a Power Split Device. Google it. It's quite elegant,.simple and reliable. And I can't argue with 55mpg from a petrol, automatic with decent space. It's costing me 10p a mile.

Imo, they're excellent pieces of engineering... remembering that the basic setup appeared in the mid 90s just as Europe was piling into diesel. The stop starting however doesn't do a lot for NOx emissions mind!

But purely a car bought with logic. It's not a car you buy for enjoyment. It's a tool, that is cheap to run and easy to use. Nothing more.
Yep, having had an Auris hybrid I would second all of the above.

It's a superbly effective drivetrain, very smooth and quiet other than the constant-RPM drone under full power. Mid-50s MPG from a Focus-sized estate car running on petrol, with no need to plug in. Close to 60mpg on long motorway runs at 70mph. All the claims of "they're no good on long journeys" are BS,

The Auris was replaced last year by a Hyundai Ioniq, which is also a "self charging" hybrid but uses a different hybrid system (driving through a DSG type gearbox). It's less smooth than the Toyota, but even more efficient on motorway runs - I've averaged a genuine 70.6mpg over a full tank (about 450 miles, mainly on motorways) in this car.

Most of the posher plug-in hybrids like the 330e/C350e return poor fuel economy on long runs as they'll only manage about 40mpg at best once the battery is depleted. It's the trade-off between having the 250+bhp that these cars offer, and the 130 or 140bhp that you get in a Prius/Auris/Ioniq/Niro.

littleredrooster

5,523 posts

195 months

Tuesday 8th January 2019
quotequote all
Otispunkmeyer said:
The engines on Toyota/Lexus hybrids do start up quick (the gains are to be had using the EV mode at the end of the trip). When they fire on the first time though they basically do a high idle with a small load variation to get warm (warm up cycle at 1300rpm ). At that point the battery is still powering the wheels, the generator unit is sending some power as well but the engine won't drive the wheels unless you really step on it.

I have a Prius and I'm an automotive engineer. It's a really nicely done system. It's not a CVT it's a Power Split Device. Google it. It's quite elegant,.simple and reliable. And I can't argue with 55mpg from a petrol, automatic with decent space. It's costing me 10p a mile.

Imo, they're excellent pieces of engineering... remembering that the basic setup appeared in the mid 90s just as Europe was piling into diesel. The stop starting however doesn't do a lot for NOx emissions mind!

But purely a car bought with logic. It's not a car you buy for enjoyment. It's a tool, that is cheap to run and easy to use. Nothing more.
I second most of the above, but actually find mine quite enjoyable to drive. It's the latest Gen IV, bought in May, so has the 4-link suspension which (IMO) gives it the ride and handling very reminiscent of my Pug 405 - sharp turn-in, good(ish) grip, quite compliant and good in the wet with decent travel and well-chosen spring and damper rates.

My 6,000 mile average is showing 62mpg which works out at a genuine 60.1mpg tank-to-tank. This is mainly me-in-a-hurry mode commuting on fast A-roads, or 480 mile motorway round-trips back to our native North-East sitting at a GPS 78mph. There is room for considerable improvement with the mpg if I did consistently slower, local runs - Mrs Rooster usually gets 85mpg+ on a trip to the local supermarket.

I bought it for its excellence of engineering and lack of expensive addenda such as DMF, DPF, turbo, EGR etc. with the intention of it being my last car. I'm hopeful of no large bills for the next 200,000 miles/15 years by which time I'll be past caring!

Mikey G

4,723 posts

239 months

Wednesday 16th January 2019
quotequote all
Ive been looking at the new Toyota Corolla touring sports, looks a nice car with a very good spec in Excel trim, ive never driven a hybrid before so will be interesting. Just waiting for my dealer to get a demonstrator in. Looking at the new 2 litre in particular.


Lowtimer

4,286 posts

167 months

Wednesday 23rd January 2019
quotequote all
Me too. Our mark III 2012 Prius has been an excellent mobile household appliance over 60K miles: it does everything we've ever needed it to do, is comfortable, commodius and cheap to run. As an only car I would find it a bit dull but to have amongst other cars , and use it as the one that soaks up a lot of the mundane mileage and gets parked at airports and stations, it has been excellent. The new Corolla estate with the more powerful hybrid system looks as if it could easily replace both our Prius and my personal daily BMW E39 Touring when that eventualy gets beyond sensible life extension.

steviechi

6 posts

125 months

Wednesday 23rd January 2019
quotequote all
littleredrooster said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
The engines on Toyota/Lexus hybrids do start up quick (the gains are to be had using the EV mode at the end of the trip). When they fire on the first time though they basically do a high idle with a small load variation to get warm (warm up cycle at 1300rpm ). At that point the battery is still powering the wheels, the generator unit is sending some power as well but the engine won't drive the wheels unless you really step on it.

I have a Prius and I'm an automotive engineer. It's a really nicely done system. It's not a CVT it's a Power Split Device. Google it. It's quite elegant,.simple and reliable. And I can't argue with 55mpg from a petrol, automatic with decent space. It's costing me 10p a mile.

Imo, they're excellent pieces of engineering... remembering that the basic setup appeared in the mid 90s just as Europe was piling into diesel. The stop starting however doesn't do a lot for NOx emissions mind!

But purely a car bought with logic. It's not a car you buy for enjoyment. It's a tool, that is cheap to run and easy to use. Nothing more.
I second most of the above, but actually find mine quite enjoyable to drive. It's the latest Gen IV, bought in May, so has the 4-link suspension which (IMO) gives it the ride and handling very reminiscent of my Pug 405 - sharp turn-in, good(ish) grip, quite compliant and good in the wet with decent travel and well-chosen spring and damper rates.

My 6,000 mile average is showing 62mpg which works out at a genuine 60.1mpg tank-to-tank. This is mainly me-in-a-hurry mode commuting on fast A-roads, or 480 mile motorway round-trips back to our native North-East sitting at a GPS 78mph. There is room for considerable improvement with the mpg if I did consistently slower, local runs - Mrs Rooster usually gets 85mpg+ on a trip to the local supermarket.

I bought it for its excellence of engineering and lack of expensive addenda such as DMF, DPF, turbo, EGR etc. with the intention of it being my last car. I'm hopeful of no large bills for the next 200,000 miles/15 years by which time I'll be past caring!

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
Lowtimer said:
Me too. Our mark III 2012 Prius has been an excellent mobile household appliance over 60K miles: it does everything we've ever needed it to do, is comfortable, commodius and cheap to run. As an only car I would find it a bit dull but to have amongst other cars , and use it as the one that soaks up a lot of the mundane mileage and gets parked at airports and stations, it has been excellent. The new Corolla estate with the more powerful hybrid system looks as if it could easily replace both our Prius and my personal daily BMW E39 Touring when that eventualy gets beyond sensible life extension.
I'm being pushed towards a hybrid via family pressure. From what I've read the Prius seems to fit my needs, I was wondering if you found any weak points or bits that irritate. I'll probably go new so it's the next model up for me.

I drive in town mostly but with occasional flurries on motorways. I'm an economical driver I think, getting 35.7 out of my 2 litre petrol Focus estate in a journey to Peckham from Burgess Hill and back yesterday via the M23, M25, A20. There was a fair bit of traffic in London and I avoided the M25 on the way back, going across the country via A26, then Penshurst. I'm told that I could double my mpg via a Prius. Can this be true?


littleredrooster

5,523 posts

195 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
I'm told that I could double my mpg via a Prius. Can this be true?
70mpg is not difficult to achieve on busy A-roads if you're not going much more than 50mph. They get a bit thirstier (low 50s) if holding motorway speeds for long periods.

dmsims

6,452 posts

266 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
Derek a PHEV might be even better

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
littleredrooster said:
70mpg is not difficult to achieve on busy A-roads if you're not going much more than 50mph. They get a bit thirstier (low 50s) if holding motorway speeds for long periods.
Thanks for that.

I'm told that people with hybrids tend to drive more economically even if they had lead feet in the past. I tend to stick to 70mph on motorways regardless of inclines.

dmsims said:
Derek a PHEV might be even better[/quo

I've done a bit of research on the matter, Given the oncosts, with installing a charging unit and the costs of electricity at remote locations, it is likely that the savings would be minimal.


L500

597 posts

237 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
.

dmsims said:
Derek a PHEV might be even better[/quo

I've done a bit of research on the matter, Given the oncosts, with installing a charging unit and the costs of electricity at remote locations, it is likely that the savings would be minimal.
Installing a home charging unit can be done for ~£250 with the OLEV grant still (before they take it away).

dmsims

6,452 posts

266 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
L500 said:
Installing a home charging unit can be done for ~£250 with the OLEV grant still (before they take it away).
Didn't even bother: PHEV batteries aren't that large and it only takes around 3 hours from a 3 pin socket (Golf GTE)

Lowtimer

4,286 posts

167 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
Lowtimer said:
Me too. Our mark III 2012 Prius has been an excellent mobile household appliance over 60K miles: it does everything we've ever needed it to do, is comfortable, commodius and cheap to run. As an only car I would find it a bit dull but to have amongst other cars , and use it as the one that soaks up a lot of the mundane mileage and gets parked at airports and stations, it has been excellent. The new Corolla estate with the more powerful hybrid system looks as if it could easily replace both our Prius and my personal daily BMW E39 Touring when that eventualy gets beyond sensible life extension.
I'm being pushed towards a hybrid via family pressure. From what I've read the Prius seems to fit my needs, I was wondering if you found any weak points or bits that irritate. I'll probably go new so it's the next model up for me.

I drive in town mostly but with occasional flurries on motorways. I'm an economical driver I think, getting 35.7 out of my 2 litre petrol Focus estate in a journey to Peckham from Burgess Hill and back yesterday via the M23, M25, A20. There was a fair bit of traffic in London and I avoided the M25 on the way back, going across the country via A26, then Penshurst. I'm told that I could double my mpg via a Prius. Can this be true?
By my experience I would think 60 mpg rather than 70. But either way you will use a lot less fuel. Our 2012 mark 3 does late 50s on long runs runs where my E39 (530i manual Touring) does about 31-32 covering the same roads in the same time with the same load. Everything I've read about the mark 4 Prius suggests it's a few MPG better than the mark III,
When you are on a commute where top speeds are generally limited by weight of traffic they are very economical. On the other hand If I cruise it at 90 then it's down to 48 or 50 mpg. But that's better that I used to get at the same speeds in my old BMW E91 320D Touring.

littleredrooster

5,523 posts

195 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
Lowtimer said:
By my experience I would think 60 mpg rather than 70.
The Gen IV (2016>) is significantly more economical than the earlier versions. AFAIK, the Prius is the only one using the Gen IV powertrain, all others (e.g. Auris, CH-R, various Lexii) use the Gen III.

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
i'm looking at the new Rav4 hybrid, would happily consider phev too, but not many options.
very specific requirements driven by it being our ski car for 3 months.
ground clearance, 4wd, reliability. comfort over sport.
no diesel out of principle! so a hybrid suv makes a lot of sense: better mpg but with some torque.

Elroy Blue

Original Poster:

8,686 posts

191 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
I'm not sure they actually have 'torque' due to the CVT gearbox. Don't they make lots of noise until the speed catches up with the revs

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
Elroy Blue said:
I'm not sure they actually have 'torque' due to the CVT gearbox. Don't they make lots of noise until the speed catches up with the revs
haven't driven one yet. reviewers of the fwd and awd hybrid talk of the awd having a lot more shove and better response (there's an additional motor on the rear axle). i have a petrol cvt Rav currently, excellent car and totally fit for purpose - comfortable transportation. i think CVTs get a bad rap. they're smooth and mostly quiet. want to drive 'sporty', get a sports car. no g'box on earth would make a Rav sporty wink

dmsims

6,452 posts

266 months

Monday 28th January 2019
quotequote all
Yes definitely drive one! - I hated the system (in an Auris)