Model 3 UK orders.

[gangzoom]

SWoll said:

Just look at the average annual mileage in the UK according to MOT tests (approx 7,500 miles). Then take the average commute distance driven of 20 miles per day. 253 working days per year = 5k miles, remaining 2500 miles/112 weekend and bank holidays = 22 miles per day.

Of course there will be the odd 50-100 mile trip thrown in and day's without any use but 250-300 mile trips on a regular basis?

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 5th December 10:48

But what's the SD of that mean figure?

Our combustion car only does 5k miles per year but every month is currently doing a 200-300 mile in a day work trip.

Trying to do the same trips in any EV would be a major pain in comparison, despite the below 'average' figure.

Nissan used the same logic as you when promoting the original 24kWh Leaf, and predicted sales massive sales on the basis most people don't drive 100 miles a day....History showed how wrong that logic turned out to be.

https://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/01/officially-off...

[Equilibrium25]

SWoll said:

Just look at the average annual mileage in the UK according to MOT tests (approx 7,500 miles). Then take the average commute distance driven of 20 miles per day. 253 working days per year = 5k miles, remaining 2500 miles/112 weekend and bank holidays = 22 miles per day.

Of course there will be the odd 50-100 mile trip thrown in and day's without any use but 250-300 mile trips on a regular basis?

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 5th December 10:48

Very flawed assumptions. My last car did 16k miles in 30 months, but was used on a six mile commute and regularly used (up to twice a month) on 200 mile round trips to Heathrow.

My current car is doing 74 miles a day commuting (new job) but the 200 mile round trip is down to perhaps 4-6 times a year.

Average mileage now much higher, but an EV would far better suit my current use case than my previous much lower mileage one. Disruption for charging and/or the need for meticulous planning would have been far greater in my old usage.

[SWoll]

Equilibrium25 said:

SWoll said:

Just look at the average annual mileage in the UK according to MOT tests (approx 7,500 miles). Then take the average commute distance driven of 20 miles per day. 253 working days per year = 5k miles, remaining 2500 miles/112 weekend and bank holidays = 22 miles per day.

Of course there will be the odd 50-100 mile trip thrown in and day's without any use but 250-300 mile trips on a regular basis?

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 5th December 10:48

Very flawed assumptions. My last car did 16k miles in 30 months, but was used on a six mile commute and regularly used (up to twice a month) on 200 mile round trips to Heathrow.

My current car is doing 74 miles a day commuting (new job) but the 200 mile round trip is down to perhaps 4-6 times a year.

Average mileage now much higher, but an EV would far better suit my current use case than my previous much lower mileage one. Disruption for charging and/or the need for meticulous planning would have been far greater in my old usage.

I'm using the average yearly mileage divided by the average commute distance for the UK populations as a whole. The fact that your usage differs from that doesn't make it a flawed assumption without doing a census of every driver in the UK.

We do twice the annual average mileage but have only done a 150+ round trip once in the past 6 months so aware that the numbers wonlt be correct for everyone, hence an average.

[ElectricSoup]

gangzoom said:

SWoll said:

Just look at the average annual mileage in the UK according to MOT tests (approx 7,500 miles). Then take the average commute distance driven of 20 miles per day. 253 working days per year = 5k miles, remaining 2500 miles/112 weekend and bank holidays = 22 miles per day.

Of course there will be the odd 50-100 mile trip thrown in and day's without any use but 250-300 mile trips on a regular basis?

Edited by SWoll on Thursday 5th December 10:48

But what's the SD of that mean figure?

Our combustion car only does 5k miles per year but every month is currently doing a 200-300 mile in a day work trip.

Trying to do the same trips in any EV would be a major pain in comparison, despite the below 'average' figure.

Nissan used the same logic as you when promoting the original 24kWh Leaf, and predicted sales massive sales on the basis most people don't drive 100 miles a day....History showed how wrong that logic turned out to be.

https://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/01/officially-off...

Low sales of the 24kwh Leaf are simply because it was the first of type, and people struggle to make the necessary attitude shift. Observing the vast majority of people who I know and drive, I can't think of a single 2-car household which couldn't use a 24kwh Leaf as the main daily car. But people are struggling to make that leap of faith. I made it over 2 years ago, buying a second hand 24kwh Leaf, and it's without doubt the finest motoring decision I've ever made. Absolutely brilliant. Yes, I have a second ICE car in my family, yes, that's what we use when I go to visit my mother 200 miles away, or go on holiday to France. But the absolute majority of my driving, and near 100% of my urban miles, are now electric. The car sits for 8 hours whilst I'm at work, and for 14 hours whilst I'm at home. All that time, it can charge. It really, really isn't an issue for MOST people, MOST of the time. Yes, my range is being caned in the current sub-zero temperatures, but it does not matter. I do under 50 miles a day. Virtually everyone I know does. And even those who do more, well they'd still benefit financially, and we'd all benefit environmentally in terms of local air quality at least, if they had a 24kwh Leaf on their household fleet for short range, urban use. I couldn't have motored for 2 years for less money, including depreciation, in a £500 shed, which would have had far bigger maintenance down time than the Leaf has had (which is zero).

Nissan's logic was right, but people just can't, or don't want to, see it.

I will never go back, and I'm yet to be convinced that I need an EV with a greater range than the 24kwh Leaf.

[Durzel]

My last comments on the whole range thing...

If a car is advertised as having 300 miles range, and you get half that or less in winter, I think that's a problem.

I don't think it's a reasonable answer to suggest not having the heating on or something. I also don't think it makes a dramatic difference - in the i3 I could either drive around at the moment with ECO PRO+ and it be as cold inside the car as outside, with the windows fogging up, just to get ~160 miles range, or I drive in ECO PRO mode and I lose ~30 miles range on top of that, be "ok" comfort wise, and the actual gauge does down faster than the miles I'm travelling.

If I had bought the car in winter I would feel very diffierently about keeping it than I do, only because I know during the summer and autumn it was capable of much longer distances.

I don't think the comparisons to ICE cars having worse MPG in winter are legitimate, really. Refuelling in an ICE car is so carefree that the only consideration you really have is that you're spending a bit more on petrol. Running out of juice in an EV, or being at risk of running out, involves planning to deal with it, and having to wait while it recharges when a few months ago you could've made the same trip in one go.

I get that this is part of EV life, but we're not talking about small reductions in range, they're precipitous drops.

Edited by Durzel on Thursday 5th December 11:17

[JD]

gangzoom said:

Am glad you agree, but its not obvious, not when you have WLTP ranges now going into 300 miles but come winter real life range is half that unless you drive around with little heating and slow down

Are you not being a touch hyperbolic here though?

A guy on speakEV says he can get 190 miles from a model X 75 in winter.

What was the WLTP on that model? 250 miles?

[SWoll]

Durzel said:

I get that this is part of EV life, but we're not talking about small reductions in range, they're precipitous drops.

Edited by Durzel on Thursday 5th December 11:17

Again, in your usage. With pre-heating and round town use we are seeing nowhere near the drops being suggested by some on the thread and its made no difference to our day to day usage of the vehicle as we plug in ever night to top-up and preheat anyway.

Anyway, we've been going around in circles on this for days now so I'll give it a rest.

[Durzel]

Indeed. I don't know what I could be doing wrong in my i3 though.

I drive conservately on my commute, pretty much always end up with 5 stars for anticipation and acceleration at the end of the journey. Almost without fail at the moment my auxiliary consumption is <= 2 stars, often 1 or 0. All I've got on is the heating on 19C, A/C on, 1 bar fan speed, driving in ECO PRO mode.

I charged it overnight from 52% for 4 hours, and left the charger on so it would precondition the battery and cabin for 8am. When I got in the car I had a projected 145 miles range in ECO PRO, before I'd set off. 2 months ago it would've been 190+.

[Zcd1]

GryllsBear said:

...Has anyone actually bought a Model 3 with the intent of putting on loads of miles and saving £££ in fuel costs?...

I bought my Model 3 Performance with the intention of driving it like any other car, and that's what I've done. I'm at just about 12K miles in a year of ownership, and the $$$ saved on fuel was one of the factors that played into my decision to buy the car.

I do a 400-miles-each-way trip several times a year, and it takes about 30 minutes longer in the Model 3 than it typically did in my previous Audis. Basically it requires 2 stops rather than 1. I knew that going in, and it doesn't bother me at all.

I drove my daughter's ICE vehicle to work yesterday, and it was low on fuel (no surprise - teenagers!) so I had to fill it up, with the temperature below 0 C and the wind whipping. Hated every moment of that. Also hated the general lack of responsiveness of the vehicle - not just that it's slower (duh) but also waiting on the powerband, the transmission to shift, the squidgy brakes, everything. It's not a bad vehicle at all, but the Model 3 sets such a high standard in that area that few other vehicles measure up.

So, it's question of which limitations one prefers to live with - those of a typical ICE vehicle as listed above, or the limited overall range of an EV. I'll never go back to an ICE daily driver, and it seems that most EV owners feel the same.

[FurtiveFreddy]

GryllsBear said:

The thing I still don't get with the Model 3 is the battery temp management, is it really only cooled with fluid and heated using the motors? Don't they manage the coolant temp to optimum (by heating and cooling) then circulate that through the battery?

It's not a criticism, I'm just interested. If anyone has any good info on how they do the warming and cooling I'd be interested in reading up.

There's not much wrong with the way the pack is temperature managed in the Model 3 apart from there not being a dedicated heater for cold weather starts. The Model 3 had to be built to a price and physically doesn't have as much space for stuff under the bonnet, so they have compromised in some areas but it is still very sophisticated and clever the way they do it.

The Superbottle is key... https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottl...

GryllsBear said:

Is that Better Route Planner pretty accurate on the whole?

Personally I could live with the stops it recommended as each one was between 7 and 20 minutes which would be a good break in the journey.

It's amazingly accurate if you feed it accurate information on how you drive, temperatures etc. I wouldn't plan a long journey without it.

[Terminator X]

ElectricSoup said:

Nissan's logic was right, but people just can't, or don't want to, see it.

Or MOST people can't afford a new EV and / or installing a charger at home and / or the inconvenience of far less chargers available vs petrol pumps and / or lower range when it's cold etc etc?

TX.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Durzel said:

My last comments on the whole range thing...

If a car is advertised as having 300 miles range, and you get half that or less in winter, I think that's a problem.

according to merc my AMG could do 37.6mpg giving it a range of 450 miles on a tank LMFAO it avg'd under 250 miles, and given clear roads closer to 200

[ElectricSoup]

Terminator X said:

ElectricSoup said:

Nissan's logic was right, but people just can't, or don't want to, see it.

Or MOST people can't afford a new EV and / or installing a charger at home and / or the inconvenience of far less chargers available vs petrol pumps and / or lower range when it's cold etc etc?

TX.

Horse/water/drink.

I can't afford a new EV. I do, however, own an EV and home charger (the latter of which was FREE). I have public charged twice in 2 years, I have done 24,000 miles, the reduction of range in the winter is not an issue, as I have described above. I am convinced, based on my own anecdotal observations of vehicle use by friends/family/colleagues that the majority of people would fare similarly, where there is access to an ICE vehicle for longer journeys, and that's with a weedy 24kwh Leaf.

You understand the word MOST don't you? It does not mean ALL?

[Durzel]

This is venturing way off “Model 3 UK Orders”

I wonder what the proportion of people with off street parking is, relative to total number of car owners? I wonder if it would fall under “most” ?

[essayer]

58 pages and still the same guff

i can't drive it more than 500 miles without recharging
i can't charge it 18 floors up in my flat
it won't fit a piano what's the point

DON'T BUY IT THEN

[Fastlane]

essayer said:

58 pages and still the same guff

i can't drive it more than 500 miles without recharging
i can't charge it 18 floors up in my flat
it won't fit a piano what's the point

DON'T BUY IT THEN

I understand your frustration, but looking at it from another perspective at least petrolheads are interested enough to write 115 pages about the Model 3, good and bad...

[Dave Hedgehog]

Another update what are we getting this time ?

[MOBB]

I think it’s the deep rain wiper software isn’t it?

[RobDickinson]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Another update what are we getting this time ?

Software? what version?

[SWoll]

Software Build v10.1 2019.36.2.4 fc422c3 (12/03/2019)

Downloading as we speak.