Hydrogen refueling is here
Discussion
RobDickinson said:
You dont pressurise it to the required pressures for FCEV though.
Perhaps Germany can pick up some of the used hydrogen stations that have closed in Norway.
Maybe everyone should give up and just go Tesla eh Mr Musk fan boy, its a good job you are not in R&D HYOP closed due to lack of funding yet funding and support is available in other countries not just Germany. And yes I do have a Hydrogen powered car, you may find it weird but I also use AutoGas Perhaps Germany can pick up some of the used hydrogen stations that have closed in Norway.
Toaster said:
Maybe everyone should give up and just go Tesla eh Mr Musk fan boy, its a good job you are not in R&D HYOP closed due to lack of funding yet funding and support is available in other countries not just Germany. And yes I do have a Hydrogen powered car, you may find it weird but I also use AutoGas
If compression of gas at home was an easy thing, why don't I have a car that runs on CNG that I can refuel at home? That would be a great thing wouldn't it? Always full, cleaner burning, cheaper to run.The latest "Net Zero" report from the government's Committee on Climate Change is advocating a wholesale conversion of the gas system to Hydrogen which would make it available virtually everywhere.
It also recognises that the only economic way to generate hydrogen at that scale is by steam reforming of Methane. They envisage a nationwide system using the existing infrastructure fed by reformers equipped with Carbon Capture and Storage (otherwise the whole cycle would produce more CO2 than simply using the methane directly).
The costs are horrendous so don't hold your breath.
It also recognises that the only economic way to generate hydrogen at that scale is by steam reforming of Methane. They envisage a nationwide system using the existing infrastructure fed by reformers equipped with Carbon Capture and Storage (otherwise the whole cycle would produce more CO2 than simply using the methane directly).
The costs are horrendous so don't hold your breath.
Japan has not been mentioned so far, they're going ahead and building a hydrogen refueling infrastructure using the Olympics to spur development. e.g, https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/02/21/busin...
Mikehig said:
The latest "Net Zero" report from the government's Committee on Climate Change is advocating a wholesale conversion of the gas system to Hydrogen which would make it available virtually everywhere.
It also recognises that the only economic way to generate hydrogen at that scale is by steam reforming of Methane. They envisage a nationwide system using the existing infrastructure fed by reformers equipped with Carbon Capture and Storage (otherwise the whole cycle would produce more CO2 than simply using the methane directly).
The costs are horrendous so don't hold your breath.
Switching mains gas from natural gas to hydrogen isnt such a big problem (ignoring hydrogen's storage issues).It also recognises that the only economic way to generate hydrogen at that scale is by steam reforming of Methane. They envisage a nationwide system using the existing infrastructure fed by reformers equipped with Carbon Capture and Storage (otherwise the whole cycle would produce more CO2 than simply using the methane directly).
The costs are horrendous so don't hold your breath.
The big problem for vehicles is having it compressed to 10,000psi, and the energy intensive nature of its production.
Evanivitch said:
If compression of gas at home was an easy thing, why don't I have a car that runs on CNG that I can refuel at home? That would be a great thing wouldn't it? Always full, cleaner burning, cheaper to run.
It is easy you just need the right equipment which currently starts around £40k RobDickinson said:
So Norway had only 2 Hydrogen refueling stations left after all the rest closed.
One of those exploded yesterday.
Thats not news sOne of those exploded yesterday.
t happens:Two dead, several injured in petrol station explosion near Rome https://www.thelocal.it/20181205/via-salaria-petro...
Horrifying moment Smart car EXPLODES at Asda petrol station – with Brit mum INSIDE https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/66768...
Buncefield fire: Oil storage firm found guilty of safety breaches https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/18/buncefi...
PARKED TESLAS KEEP CATCHING FIRE FOR SEEMINGLY NO REASON https://futurism.com/the-byte/another-tesla-fire-p...
Calls for lithium battery review after Boeing Dreamliner fire at Heathrow https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/aug/19/l...
Have stored energy, the chances are at some point you will have a fire
Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 11th June 06:25
Evanivitch said:
Matthen said:
Apart from every haulage company ever?
If it is possible to use hydrogen to bin diesel lorries off the road, that's great imo.
Every haulage company ever doesn't necessarily need a vehicle with huge mileage, certainly not in the UK, where the distance between point of entry, distribution and consumption is a few hundred miles at worst.If it is possible to use hydrogen to bin diesel lorries off the road, that's great imo.
Take supermarkets as an example, they already use rail from the major points of entry to their distribution hubs. I know that South Wales and the West are largely served out of the Chepstow/Avonmouth area. Not huge mileage to deliver from there, plus charging available at the point of delivery in the 30-60 minutes turnaround required.
jimPH said:
When s truck goes out it's out all day. It doesn't do short trips! It does a round
That depends on the operator.A Tesco wagon in South Wales would go from Avonmouth/Magor to Cardiff/Bristol/Swansea/Birmingham for one delivery, and come back empty or with cages and recycling.
It's not beyond reason that even the Cardiff/Bristol deliveries could be done on an EV within the near future with charging at the depot and point of delivery (supermarkets already have 3 phase, and some even have CHP units).
dave_s13 said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
dead before it leaves the house, will join LPG
Hope not....I'm getting on nicely with LPG thanks!
I converted my TVR Chimaera to dual fuel some six years ago, they said LPG was dead in the water back then too, but here I am six years later and only yesterday still filling up with 300 miles of low carbon gas for just £33.90.
Pop the TVRs carbon fibre targa roof in the boot and there's absolutely no loss of luggage space either.
Using my car as an example of what's possible if you compare a standard petrol Chimaera with my LPG Chimaera I'm saving £0.13p every mile I drive, LPG in its gaseous state has a calorific value 18% lower than petrol so you will use 18% more of the stuff, but what many people dont understand is LPG is also 110Ron so by developing an ignition map to suit the fuel I've turned -18% into a chemical fuel makeup defying -7.17%.
Of course LPG is so much cheaper to buy than petrol, as a direct cost comparison my 4.0 litre V8 TVR is the same as running a petrol car (any petrol car) that delivers 50.28mpg!
The same luggage capacity, the same tank range and again using intelligent LPG engine mapping and taking advantage of that race fuel beating 110Ron even better performance than a standard 4.0 litre petrol TVR Chimaera...
What you're looking at here is a 50mpg 1100kg analogue V8 sports car that delivers 0-60 in 4.8 seconds and 153mph, all that and a dramatic reduction in emissions too.
Petrol, LPG and diesel are all just hydrocarbons and when you burn a hydrocarbon you are creating energy in the form of heat, but at the same time you are also unlocking and releasing the carbon contained in that fuel into the atmosphere which as we all know is very bad news for the environment. The difference is LPG has three carbon atoms against petrol that has five and the 'Devil's Fuel' diesel that has a shocking 15 carbon atoms.
This is scientific fact and why LPG is considered such a green low carbon hydrocarbon fuel, of course you can reduce your carbon emissions by burning less of your chosen hydrocarbon to cover the same distance, however while improving your fuel consumption can help a bit if you're really serious about dramatically reducing the carbon emissions produced by your internal combustion engine the very best way to do so is to make it burn a far lower carbon fuel in the first place.
Or better still burn pure hydrogen which obviously contains no carbon atoms so all that will exit your tail pipe is pure H2O (water), unfortunately the three elephants in the room for using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine are the massive amounts of electricity you need to crack the hydrogen from water in the first place, its very low calorific value, and the huge pressures needed to store it as a liquid which is essential if you want to travel more than a few miles on every fill.
Of course LPG is still the third most used fuel used for passenger cars in the world and for very good reason, it's also an unavoidable product created when refining crude oil into petrol and diesel fuels, so we've got to do something with it and the truth is as long as we are still refining crude oil we'll still be producing LPG.
Even in the UK where take up is lower than mainland Europe, Australia, Brazil, ect ect LPG is actually everywhere... Still!
At the end of the day executed correctly using modern engine management LPG is a fantastic way to cut your modern car's fuel bills in half and considerably lower it's emissions too, better still for the true car enthusiast and typical Piston Heads contributor its an absolutely perfect solution for taking an old, thirsty, and polluting enthusiast/classic car and bringing it right up to date on fuel economy and tail pipe emissions.
LPG is here to stay!
ChimpOnGas said:
better still for the true car enthusiast and typical Piston Heads contributor its an absolutely perfect solution for taking an old, thirsty, and polluting enthusiast/classic car and bringing it right up to date on fuel economy and tail pipe emissions.
Probably about the only part I agree with.Apart from London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, there seems to be quite a sporadic spread of LPG stations around the UK. I know I live in a deadspot in South Wales and would need to go to Cardiff or Swansea to refuel which would be a pain.
Milton Keynes has just 3 LPG stations, but dozen upon dozen EV rapid chargers.
We are very UK centric when talking about BEV. We assume that, just because they can work for many people on our small and overcrowded island, then they are the answer for the world. But they're not.
Germany is investing in hydrogen as the distances travelled and the speeds are significantly higher over there. Berlin to Bonn, for example is 600kms. At Autobahn speeds, especially during the colder months, even £100k of Tesla isn't going to make that without a recharge. And recharging infrastructure where you have thousands of people doing that kind of journey is difficult to install - a standard filling station requiring a 50kW charging station needs a 200 Amp, 3-phase supply. And that's just for a single charger plus overheads to run the rest of the site. Some of the projects to install charging points are being quoted as millions, just to get a couple of 150kW chargers to a site.
Plus, when talking freight, you don't want heavy battery packs taking up space and load - how big and heavy is a battery pack to run an HGV for 500 miles? - and how long will it take to charge that, without investing really huge amounts of money in chargers which can rapidly charge an HGV. A 30 minute top up from a supermarket loading bay isn't going to cut it!
Hydrogen can be piped, can be generated on site, or reformed from methane. It may not be the most efficient system at the moment, but hydrolysis energy requirements have dropped by around 50% in the last decade.
Germany is investing in hydrogen as the distances travelled and the speeds are significantly higher over there. Berlin to Bonn, for example is 600kms. At Autobahn speeds, especially during the colder months, even £100k of Tesla isn't going to make that without a recharge. And recharging infrastructure where you have thousands of people doing that kind of journey is difficult to install - a standard filling station requiring a 50kW charging station needs a 200 Amp, 3-phase supply. And that's just for a single charger plus overheads to run the rest of the site. Some of the projects to install charging points are being quoted as millions, just to get a couple of 150kW chargers to a site.
Plus, when talking freight, you don't want heavy battery packs taking up space and load - how big and heavy is a battery pack to run an HGV for 500 miles? - and how long will it take to charge that, without investing really huge amounts of money in chargers which can rapidly charge an HGV. A 30 minute top up from a supermarket loading bay isn't going to cut it!
Hydrogen can be piped, can be generated on site, or reformed from methane. It may not be the most efficient system at the moment, but hydrolysis energy requirements have dropped by around 50% in the last decade.
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