Hydrogen refueling is here

Hydrogen refueling is here

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Discussion

Poppiecock

744 posts

3 months

Sunday 25th August
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Probably about the only part I agree with.

Apart from London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, there seems to be quite a sporadic spread of LPG stations around the UK. I know I live in a deadspot in South Wales and would need to go to Cardiff or Swansea to refuel which would be a pain.

Milton Keynes has just 3 LPG stations, but dozen upon dozen EV rapid chargers.
Are you sure about rapid? ZapMap suggest maybe a dozen proper rapid chargers - ie. 50kW and above.

Even those are mostly single units, meaning if you're not the first person to it, you're waiting for 20-30 minutes.

At least with LPG you can fill in a few minutes and usually fill more than 1 vehicle at a time. Throughput is significantly better!

RobDickinson

26,973 posts

199 months

Sunday 25th August
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Sure, list me all the factory spec lpg cars I can buy.

Poppiecock

744 posts

3 months

Sunday 25th August
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Mainland Europe has a lot, actually - either direct from the factory, or as a manufacturer certified dealer-fit option.

Not 100% sure on the very latest, as the list I have here still lists the MiTo, but:

Alfa. MiTo / Giulietta
Dacia. Dokker / Lodgy / Sandero / Duster / Logan
Fiat. 500L / Panda / Tipo / Punto
Lancia. Ypsilon
Ford. B-Max / C-Max / Fiesta / Focus
Kia. Rio / Picanto / Venga
Lada. Kalina / Niva / Granta
Mitsubishi. ASX / Outlander / Space Star
Nissan. Juke / Micra / Note
Opel. Adam / Corsa / Astra / Insignia / Karl (Viva) / Meriva / Mokka / Zafira / Crossland
Piaggio. Porter
Renault. Clio / Megane
SsangYong Korrando / Tivoli / XLV G16
Subaru. Forester / Outback / XV
Honda. Civic
Hyundai. i10 / i20
Citroen. C3 / C-Elysee / 208
Suzuki. Cross / Jimmy / Celerio / Vitara / Baleno
Skoda. CitiGo / Fabia / Octavia / Rapid

Also a load of Chinese stuff, too.



Evanivitch

4,623 posts

67 months

Sunday 25th August
quotequote all
Poppiecock said:
Evanivitch said:
Probably about the only part I agree with.

Apart from London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, there seems to be quite a sporadic spread of LPG stations around the UK. I know I live in a deadspot in South Wales and would need to go to Cardiff or Swansea to refuel which would be a pain.

Milton Keynes has just 3 LPG stations, but dozen upon dozen EV rapid chargers.
Are you sure about rapid? ZapMap suggest maybe a dozen proper rapid chargers - ie. 50kW and above.

Even those are mostly single units, meaning if you're not the first person to it, you're waiting for 20-30 minutes.

At least with LPG you can fill in a few minutes and usually fill more than 1 vehicle at a time. Throughput is significantly better!
I can count about 45 on ZapMaps in what I'd call MK.

But then you can also leave the house every time with a "full tank" on an EV, which you can't do with an LPG unless you fancy a huge LPG tank in your garden...


Poppiecock

744 posts

3 months

Sunday 25th August
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
I can count about 45 on ZapMaps in what I'd call MK.

But then you can also leave the house every time with a "full tank" on an EV, which you can't do with an LPG unless you fancy a huge LPG tank in your garden...

That's a very loose definition of 'Milton Keynes' - and even this only works whilst numbers of EVs are small.

Replace 10% of the current fleet with EV and that won't cope. Adding chargers is a minimum of £100k per location, rising rapidly from that.

LPG installations can be done for smaller figures and throughput a car at least every 5 minutes.

But they're not really competitive with each other. H2 and BEV are the options. LPG just extends the life of ICE to make the transition more realistic.


jamoor

10,026 posts

160 months

Sunday 25th August
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I do wonder how many people actually need chargers.

Surely most people commute within a reaosnable distance from home meaning they always charge at home? i think comparing EV stations to petrol and LPG stations isn't quite comparable!

ChimpOnGas

8,871 posts

124 months

Sunday 25th August
quotequote all
Poppiecock said:
Mainland Europe has a lot, actually - either direct from the factory, or as a manufacturer certified dealer-fit option.

Not 100% sure on the very latest, as the list I have here still lists the MiTo, but:

Alfa. MiTo / Giulietta
Dacia. Dokker / Lodgy / Sandero / Duster / Logan
Fiat. 500L / Panda / Tipo / Punto
Lancia. Ypsilon
Ford. B-Max / C-Max / Fiesta / Focus
Kia. Rio / Picanto / Venga
Lada. Kalina / Niva / Granta
Mitsubishi. ASX / Outlander / Space Star
Nissan. Juke / Micra / Note
Opel. Adam / Corsa / Astra / Insignia / Karl (Viva) / Meriva / Mokka / Zafira / Crossland
Piaggio. Porter
Renault. Clio / Megane
SsangYong Korrando / Tivoli / XLV G16
Subaru. Forester / Outback / XV
Honda. Civic
Hyundai. i10 / i20
Citroen. C3 / C-Elysee / 208
Suzuki. Cross / Jimmy / Celerio / Vitara / Baleno
Skoda. CitiGo / Fabia / Octavia / Rapid

Also a load of Chinese stuff, too.
Exactly, trouble is theres a blinkered element that resides in the UK who seem to think the UK is the centre of the universe, their thinking is if it doesn't exist on these shores it simply doesn't exist full stop.

The truth is a lot of things go on in the wider world that ignorant Brits never see, stuff like most car makers offering their customer's a from the factory brand new car LPG option.

Globally LPG cars still out numbers EVs more than 10,000 to 1 and hydrogen vehicles more than 100,000 to . Just because we in the UK on our little island don't use it much actually means nothing when you look at the true global picture.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 25th August 22:19

RobDickinson

26,973 posts

199 months

Sunday 25th August
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
Exactly, trouble is theres a blinkered culture in the UK where some Brits seem to think the UK is the centre of the universe, their thinking is if it doesn't exist on these shores it simply doesn't exist .

The truth is a lot of things go on in the wider world that ignorant Brits never see, stuff like most car makers offering their customer's a from the factory brand new car LPG option.

Globally LPG cars still out numbers EVs more than 10,000 to 1 and hydrogen vehicles more than 100,000 to . Just because we in the UK on our little island don't use it much actually means nothing when you look at the true global picture.
1. I'm not in the uk.

2. google say there is 8.6m LPG vehicles, and 5.6m EVs, give it a year or two and LPg will be behind by a fair way (1m+ a year currently being sold).

Evanivitch

4,623 posts

67 months

Sunday 25th August
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
Exactly, trouble is theres a blinkered element that resides in the UK who seem to think the UK is the centre of the universe, their thinking is if it doesn't exist on these shores it simply doesn't exist full stop.

The truth is a lot of things go on in the wider world that ignorant Brits never see, stuff like most car makers offering their customer's a from the factory brand new car LPG option.

Globally LPG cars still out numbers EVs more than 10,000 to 1 and hydrogen vehicles more than 100,000 to . Just because we in the UK on our little island don't use it much actually means nothing when you look at the true global picture.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 25th August 22:19
Hang on, aside from Opel, most those brands offer 3-5 models in LPG in a range of usually a dozen models. That's clearly targeted at where the majority of their fleet and/or budget sales are. Given that Ford have now commited to every model having a soft hybrid option in the next model cycle and several manufacturers going full EV in a decade or so, that shows just how little regard there is for LPG amongst the OEM.

Evanivitch

4,623 posts

67 months

Sunday 25th August
quotequote all
Poppiecock said:
That's a very loose definition of 'Milton Keynes' - and even this only works whilst numbers of EVs are small.

Replace 10% of the current fleet with EV and that won't cope. Adding chargers is a minimum of £100k per location, rising rapidly from that.
That's the Borough of Milton Keynes, not a loose definition by any standard.

£100k is top end installation cost of a 150kW system, but you carry on picking out random numbers.

Chris32345

245 posts

7 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
Hydrogen is certainly the future for large plant equipment
Mining diggers dumpers ect

Heres Johnny

5,083 posts

69 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Poppiecock said:
That's a very loose definition of 'Milton Keynes' - and even this only works whilst numbers of EVs are small.

Replace 10% of the current fleet with EV and that won't cope. Adding chargers is a minimum of £100k per location, rising rapidly from that.
That's the Borough of Milton Keynes, not a loose definition by any standard.

£100k is top end installation cost of a 150kW system, but you carry on picking out random numbers.
More in MK than Wales...

Great if you are unfortunate enough to have to visit MK

T-195

1,254 posts

6 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Hang on, aside from Opel, most those brands offer 3-5 models in LPG in a range of usually a dozen models. That's clearly targeted at where the majority of their fleet and/or budget sales are. Given that Ford have now commited to every model having a soft hybrid option in the next model cycle and several manufacturers going full EV in a decade or so, that shows just how little regard there is for LPG amongst the OEM.
Which other manufacturers will be full EV in a decade or so, as you put it.

Poppiecock

744 posts

3 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
I’ll wrap up a few things here.

There are around 27 million LPG vehicles on the road, some of which will also fall under the EV category as they’re hybrids. (Many Far Eastern cities use LPG hybrid taxi fleets).

EV figures are always inflated by the categorisation of hybrids as EV, even a Prius with 1 or 2 miles battery range is classed as EV in many published figures. Even excluding self-charging hybrids, most figures will include PHEV.

Installation costs... a bare 50kW charger is £60-80k installed if you have a decent grid connection in place, if you need DNO civil works costs spiral very quickly, especially if road or rail infrastructure is in the way. An average 150kW install is likely to go over £250k incl. DNO works. I know this as I work in a business where we are installing these things.

Charge throttling is also a very real issue, so even a 6 or more bay installation may only support a total of 50 or 150kW, meaning your turnaround time isn’t guaranteed.

Edited by Poppiecock on Monday 26th August 09:44


Edited by Poppiecock on Monday 26th August 09:44

otolith

38,471 posts

149 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
Petrol, LPG and diesel are all just hydrocarbons and when you burn a hydrocarbon you are creating energy in the form of heat, but at the same time you are also unlocking and releasing the carbon contained in that fuel into the atmosphere which as we all know is very bad news for the environment. The difference is LPG has three carbon atoms against petrol that has five and the 'Devil's Fuel' diesel that has a shocking 15 carbon atoms.
I think you’re overstating the important of that distinction there - there is a difference in the carbon-hydrogen ratio of different chain length alkanes - so CH4 is 1:4 and C2H6 is 1:3 and C3H8 is 3:8 and so on, approaching 1:2 as the chain gets longer, but the difference between C16H34 and C3H8 isn’t shocking. Don’t forget that for the same energy output you will have to burn more molecules of propane than of cetane. In burning a molecule of cetane you’ll release a bit less than five times as much energy in return for releasing a bit more than five times as much CO2 but it’s not a shocking difference.

otolith

38,471 posts

149 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
The difference in your CO2 emissions on petrol and gas (~200g/km vs ~280g/km) is far more than the C:H ratio of the fuel would explain. I would say that your remapped engine is simply much more efficient when running on LPG than on petrol.

ChimpOnGas

8,871 posts

124 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
I run two completely unique fuel dedicated calibrations, one optimised for petrol and one completely separate calibration for LPG, the key word here is optimised.

The two fuels behave very differently and so demand very different fuel and ignition tables to get the best from them, you can't do this with a typical LPG system because they are all just a splice job to the petrol injectors. An LPG piggy back ECU also only influences fuel not ignition timing which when you consider the high octane rating of LPG and more importantly it's slower burn speed is missing a massive trick.

Think of my system as an aftermarket ECU where the option to run two calibrations is common, however in my case 'Map One' is petrol and 'Map Two' is LPG. Switch to 'Map Two' and I'm running up to 7 degrees more ignition advance in places and 2 degrees less in others but this is only half the story as the topography is very different too, when I switch to gas I'm also activating my LPG temperature and pressure correction tables to compensate for fuel volume changes due to shifts in fuel temperature and a pressure correction strategy to further trim the very stable Magic 3 Power vaporiser.

Anyway there's a lot more to it than that and I'm not down on piggy back LPG ECUs because some of the more modern ones are actually very sophisticated and knock sensors go some way to push the timing further on LPG, but by their very nature an LPG piggy back ECU is only as good as the engine management system it's spliced to so if like my Chimaera you're starting with an ancient distributor ignition system and a Lucas 14CUX ECU which is just an adapted Bosch L-Jetronic system from the 1980's.... you may as well start a fresh with a far smarter engine management system.

Turning a 22mpg TVR into a cleaner less polluting vehicle that delivers the petrol cost equivalent of 50mpg while retaining all of the car's full fat V8 sound track and thrilling performance is just a great way to bring the car up to date without destroying its unique analogue character and driving experience which is so often lost in a world of safety regulation and computer designed homogenised so called sports cars we get force fed these days.

There's no way on God's earth would I follow the latest trend of turning lovely classic cars into EVs, when you remove the engine from a classic you remove its very soul.... in summary LPG works perfectly for me thanks wink


jjwilde

662 posts

41 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
Chris32345 said:
Hydrogen is certainly the future for large plant equipment
Mining diggers dumpers ect
Why do so many manufacturers seem to be going electric then?

otolith

38,471 posts

149 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
ChimpOnGas said:
I run two completely unique fuel dedicated calibrations, one optimised for petrol and one completely separate calibration for LPG, the key word here is optimised.
Yep, and the optimised LPG map is more efficient than the petrol one (presumably because it’s exploiting the high RON rating)

paul.deitch

1,465 posts

202 months

Monday 26th August
quotequote all
I worked on a hydrogen fuelling project 20 years ago (and stay in touch with the technology) and it and CNG are going nowhere for consumer fuelling. Trucks, busses, trains however are using the tech. The high pressures involved mean that small mistakes can quickly lead to injury and death.