EV sales in UK fall for 1st time

[Dave Hedgehog]

bigdog3 said:

That LEVC taxi based van looks promising. Interesting that it's still a series hybrid and can only manage 80 miles on battery power alone

https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/1126/levc-unv...

It is a range extender which is more efficient than an ICE hybrid

I guess it’s needed until the mayor delivers the network of taxi only rapid chargers in London

[bigdog3]

Dave Hedgehog said:

It is a range extender which is more efficient than an ICE hybrid

I guess it’s needed until the mayor delivers the network of taxi only rapid chargers in London

Range Extender is a Series ICE Hybrid in contrast to a Parallel ICE Hybrid.

When the ICE is turned on, Series Hybrids (ie range extenders) are less efficient than Parallel Hybrids due to additional losses converting engine power into electrical power.

[oop north]

bigdog3 said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

It is a range extender which is more efficient than an ICE hybrid

I guess it’s needed until the mayor delivers the network of taxi only rapid chargers in London

Range Extender is a Series ICE Hybrid in contrast to a Parallel ICE Hybrid.

When the ICE is turned on, Series Hybrids (ie range extenders) are less efficient than Parallel Hybrids due to additional losses converting engine power into electrical power.

But the range extender will Use less petrol (and this arguably be more efficient overall) because if used properly it will spend much more time running on electric power

[kambites]

bigdog3 said:

When the ICE is turned on, Series Hybrids (ie range extenders) are less efficient than Parallel Hybrids due to additional losses converting engine power into electrical power.

I'm not sure that's true. A range extender ICE can be specifically designed for optimal efficiency at a particular RPM and never needs to be run at anything other than wide open throttle so it can run very close to peak efficiency all the time it's in use; a parallel hybrid engine generally has to be much more flexible in terms of the conditions under which it operates.

In a series hybrid you'll get something like 40% efficiency out of the engine, 90% generation efficiency and 90% motor efficiency giving you about 30% overall efficiency. I'd be amazed if the engine alone can average that in most parallel hybrids let alone once you take all the gearbox losses into account.

[bigdog3]

kambites said:

bigdog3 said:

When the ICE is turned on, Series Hybrids (ie range extenders) are less efficient than Parallel Hybrids due to additional losses converting engine power into electrical power.

I'm not sure that's true. A range extender ICE can be specifically designed for optimal efficiency at a particular RPM and never needs to be run at anything other than wide open throttle so it can run very close to peak efficiency all the time it's in use; a parallel hybrid engine generally has to be much more flexible in terms of the conditions under which it operates.

In a series hybrid you'll get something like 40% efficiency out of the engine, 90% generation efficiency and 90% motor efficiency giving you about 30% overall efficiency. I'd be amazed if the engine alone can average that in most parallel hybrids let alone once you take all the gearbox losses into account.

Thanks for your comments. Certainly made me research further to see if my preconceptions were right, wrong or indifferent. Seems the efficiency comparison is more complex than either of us thought. So I've learnt something today

"Series hybrids are also not as efficient as parallel hybrids for highway driving since the engine is not directly connected to the wheels."

"Some hybrid models offer dual drivetrains that combine the advantages of series and parallel designs. They operate as series hybrids at low-speed driving conditions and as parallel hybrids under high-speed conditions."

ref: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/advantages-disadvant...

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-veh...

[kambites]

bigdog3 said:

"Series hybrids are also not as efficient as parallel hybrids for highway driving since the engine is not directly connected to the wheels."

Even that, I think, is an over-simplication. A series hybrid which uses an engine designed for driving the wheels can certainly be rather inefficient, but a properly designed series hybrid which a purpose designed generator (which is, admittedly, very rare in cars) can actually manage very good end-to-end efficiency. There's a reason that things like trains and cruise ships tend to be use electric transmissions rather than gearboxes.

And yes you can get interesting designs which combine the two, although they have their own downsides. If you're interested, have a read up on how the Hybrid Synergy Drive system works. It's really quite clever.

Edited by kambites on Monday 12th August 05:40

[rscott]

85Carrera said:

kambites said:

Welshbeef said:

No EV owners were stranded yesterday ? Even with the national grid down.

I’d wager at least ONE would have been

Well given that without power, petrol pumps won't work, I'm guessing more ICE cars were stranded than EVs.

Good lord, the EV fanboys do spout some nonsense

So do petrol pumps work wthout power? Or EPOS and card processing systems?

[otolith]

T-195 said:

And never will be unless we knock down large swathes of London for one.

I'm in, can we use nukes?

[Frimley111R]

oop north said:

But the range extender will Use less petrol (and this arguably be more efficient overall) because if used properly it will spend much more time running on electric power

Spoke to a local taxi driver with one of these and he said he did 60m on the battery, then went and parked up, quick charged it and went off again. Somehow he gets free electricity he said.

And you'll never guess who he had in the back of his cab last week......

[oop north]

The Crack Fox said:

Witchfinder said:

fk 'em. Polluter pays and all that. The whole planet needs to urgently reduce emissions, or we face our very own extinction level event. Even EVs are not ideal, and are not a panacea on their own.

ICE or EV in the UK makes fk all difference to the global issue. China, Russia, India, USA.... all polluting like crazy thanks to their coal use. They’re probably laughing at the futility of Brits getting taxed loads for driving diesels.

Well it makes a big difference locally - haven’t you seen any of the recent stuff about appalling emissions (in and) around schools in London?

Also, if everyone says there’s no point doing anything because other people are doing nothing then nothing will ever improve. It’s also akin to saying I won’t stop throwing litter on the floor because someone else is going to do it anyway. That’s just selfish and lazy - we
Can all make a difference - and lots and lots of people making a small difference makes a big difference

[hyphen]

oop north said:

Well it makes a big difference locally - haven’t you seen any of the recent stuff about appalling emissions (in and) around schools in London?

Also, if everyone says there’s no point doing anything because other people are doing nothing then nothing will ever improve. It’s also akin to saying I won’t stop throwing litter on the floor because someone else is going to do it anyway. That’s just selfish and lazy - we
Can all make a difference - and lots and lots of people making a small difference makes a big difference

There are bigger forces at play already, you can retire your 'down with this sort of thing' banner

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-07...

[herewego]

The Crack Fox said:

oop north said:

Well it makes a big difference locally - haven’t you seen any of the recent stuff about appalling emissions (in and) around schools in London?

Also, if everyone says there’s no point doing anything because other people are doing nothing then nothing will ever improve. It’s also akin to saying I won’t stop throwing litter on the floor because someone else is going to do it anyway. That’s just selfish and lazy - we
Can all make a difference - and lots and lots of people making a small difference makes a big difference

I get what you’re saying, but I don’t live in London and do my bit. My point is that we have zero influence over the real, big polluters. Faffing with batteries in cars seems pointless in the grand scheme of things.

35 million fossil fuel burning cars in one little UK is a big block of emissions and hopefully the whole of europe will be moving together. Obviously every large emitter worldwide has to be involved and some may need to be forced but I don't see anything wrong in pushing for change rather than following.

[Evanivitch]

The Crack Fox said:

ICE or EV in the UK makes fk all difference to the global issue. China, Russia, India, USA.... all polluting like crazy thanks to their coal use. They’re probably laughing at the futility of Brits getting taxed loads for driving diesels.

It's not just London that has pollution. Every major town in the UK has a pollution issue. Outside of London, the most polluted street in the UK is a narrow, steep road in South Wales. It's miles away from Cardiff and Newport.

Whilst China as a country is a heavy polluter, it's because it's producing good for the West. An American lifestyle demands nearly 5 times the pollution of a Chinese lifestyle. So we can do something to reduce the emissions in high pollution countries, but it doesn't start at the car.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2...

[kambites]

The Crack Fox said:

ICE or EV in the UK makes fk all difference to the global issue. China, Russia, India, USA.... all polluting like crazy thanks to their coal use. They’re probably laughing at the futility of Brits getting taxed loads for driving diesels.

That sounds very much like the "my vote wont any difference so I wont bother" argument.

[anonymous-user]

kambites said:

That sounds very much like the "my vote wont any difference so I wont bother" argument.

I agree but it's more "my vote won't make any difference as their votes are worth 1000* mine" argument.

[kambites]

euphoricmess said:

I agree but it's more "my vote won't make any difference as their votes are worth 1000* mine" argument.

Yes but "they" is an entire country! It's like saying "there's no point in me voting in a general election because Scotland has thousands of times as many votes as I do". China's per-capita CO2 emissions aren't much higher than ours and even the USA's are "only" three times ours.

[bearman68]

Evanivitch said:

It's not just London that has pollution. Every major town in the UK has a pollution issue. Outside of London, the most polluted street in the UK is a narrow, steep road in South Wales. It's miles away from Cardiff and Newport.

Whilst China as a country is a heavy polluter, it's because it's producing good for the West. An American lifestyle demands nearly 5 times the pollution of a Chinese lifestyle. So we can do something to reduce the emissions in high pollution countries, but it doesn't start at the car.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2...

Interesting data. How does Gibralter end up using 160 Co2's per person though, compared to US 19? Gibralter must therefore be 8 times as polluting as the US? Looks like a data glitch to me.....

[Evanivitch]

bearman68 said:

Interesting data. How does Gibralter end up using 160 Co2's per person though, compared to US 19? Gibralter must therefore be 8 times as polluting as the US? Looks like a data glitch to me.....

Sort of. Whilst the study does account for offshore carbon emissions through consumption of goods, it doesn't do so for offshore traffic (on the assumption that most people do a return journey).

However, Gibraltar is a major hub for bunker fuel for the shipping industry. Combined with the small population, it means that Gibraltar has an artificially high result. A few island nations have a similar issue.

[V10 SPM]

jjwilde said:

V10 SPM said:

Is Nikola Motors a scam too?
https://nikolamotor.com/press_releases/nikola-laun...

Well... would you invest in that? Do you know their history? You might want to google it.

$250 million new investment by CNH Industrial.
$230 million new investment by Bosch and Hanwha.
Confirming "commitment to the development of hydrogen technology and hydrogen infrastructure".