BBC "Should I ..." EV Car article

[CrgT16]

Witchfinder said:

CrgT16 said:

For performance, spirited driving I prefer the more traditional setup of a petrol engine.

I'm sure you do, but here's the thing - burning fossil fuels is a major contributor to climate change and air quality problems. What you prefer is not going to matter soon.

I certainly won’t dictate legislation but I think I will be ok to enjoy my petrol engined a car for a good few years. For everyday if needed EV will a White good as anything else. The petrol engine is an hobby. I think I will be fine...

[Witchfinder]

CrgT16 said:

I certainly won’t dictate legislation but I think I will be ok to enjoy my petrol engined a car for a good few years. For everyday if needed EV will a White good as anything else. The petrol engine is an hobby. I think I will be fine...

Well no, none of us is going to be fine if global seas levels rise by a metre. It's not just about carrying on until the government says "no" - everyone needs to do their bit.

[RobDickinson]

A weekend toy you drive a few miles now and then won't make a difference.

Its the millions of commuters and goods vehicles need replacing ASAP.

[bartelbe]

There is the issue of the residuals. The whole business model for cars companies is now based on leasing and leasing only works if the car still has value at the end of the lease and can be sold on.

I only buy used cars and I wouldn't touch an EV with a bargepole because of the issue of battery failure. It doesn't matter how cheap used EVs get, if they come with a bill in the thousands to replace a knackered battery pack. No buyers for used EVs means expensive leases and no mass market for them.

[RobDickinson]

With evs you know precisely, to the percent, how healthy the battery is, and they are lasting very well with few exceptions.

Your used ice car is total guesswork, obviously not used car has ever lunched its gearbox or engine etc what with all those many moving parts etc.

EV residuals will be fine, ice residuals will fall off a cliff.

[Uggers]

People just want to get about generally as cheaply and with as little hassle possible. There is hardly a fleeting thought given by most car buyers about their environmental impact. So with subsidies and grants EV's have never been so attractive? Couple that with usable battery ranges, good performance, high levels of refinement. Yet they only account for a fraction of total sales.
If they were cheaper and more convenient, people will buy them. Society isn't stupid. If it makes financial sense society will adopt it and it will sell well. Yet they are a tiny proportion of total sales.

So are these millions of car buyers blinkered about the benefits of EV, or is it that they have worked out they will be more expensive and less practical than the ICE car currently?

Personally I'd prefer to see EV's stand on their own merits, without grants and concessions paid for by the tax payer. Once they develop to being a viable proposition against ICE then great, everyone changes.

Also with regards to pollution. I think ICE cars get an unfair press. Especially modern petrols.
Aviation, marine and heavy industry is the more obvious targets to curb pollution. But then most city dwellers have not seen the stuff a 5000hp 2 stroke diesel chucks out running 24/7, 360 days a year. Or the 100's of FPSO flare booms with 75ft gas flames blasting out of them all day everyday for years.

But that's okay, because the pollution is somewhere else, not on their doorstep.

[CrgT16]

Exactly... no doubt air quality in towns/city centres will improve and I support that.

Luckily I don’t live in a city centre nor I commute to one so I am not making the cities a silent killer.

Modern petrol cars are efficient and if used as a hobby it will be fine for many reasons... one of them will be because %wise it will be low on the list of main contributors for pollution.

Whitchfinder is obviously pious and has stopped eat beef, etc so he is saving the world and I commend him for it. On the other hand, I am doing my bit in the context of the world and I am quite comfortable with it.

As said EVs have a good role to play, will not replace ICE/hybrids totally for many years to come for the simple fact there isn’t enough supply, infrastructure and the world is not just Britain. Try to seek the EV concept in Africa and try to apply it with success... it just can be done. EVs will still be a small percentage worldwide with a steady but slow increase in market share as tech/infrastructure develops. In the U.K. sure will become more widespread.

But apart from air quality improvement which is important in cities EVs are not as clean as some people make it.

Recycle better, walk/cycle more, fly less and shop less online and you are “doing your bit”

[Witchfinder]

bartelbe said:

I only buy used cars and I wouldn't touch an EV with a bargepole because of the issue of battery failure. It doesn't matter how cheap used EVs get, if they come with a bill in the thousands to replace a knackered battery pack. No buyers for used EVs means expensive leases and no mass market for them.

You realise most EVs come with an 8 year battery warranty, right? Stuff like the early Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management in the battery packs, and they degraded. New EVs should have batteries that outlive the car; usually going on to second life applications as domestic storage batteries.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Witchfinder said:

bartelbe said:

I only buy used cars and I wouldn't touch an EV with a bargepole because of the issue of battery failure. It doesn't matter how cheap used EVs get, if they come with a bill in the thousands to replace a knackered battery pack. No buyers for used EVs means expensive leases and no mass market for them.

You realise most EVs come with an 8 year battery warranty, right? Stuff like the early Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management in the battery packs, and they degraded. New EVs should have batteries that outlive the car; usually going on to second life applications as domestic storage batteries.

and most cars are scrapped by 13 years after production so not a huge amount of time to be 'gambling' on the battery pack

There will be a huge growth in specialist centres who can look after EVs and repair or replace battery blocks / cells, you do not need to change the whole thing.


A lot of people where worried about the computerisation of car engines as it would lead to making traditional mechanics redundant, but specialist companies developed the kit necessary to support the 'hi tech' engines and very few people now have a problem getting their car maintained.

And generally EVs are far simpler than ICE cars with a lot fewer moving parts.

[Evanivitch]

bartelbe said:

I only buy used cars and I wouldn't touch an EV with a bargepole because of the issue of battery failure. It doesn't matter how cheap used EVs get, if they come with a bill in the thousands to replace a knackered battery pack.

But petrol and diesel engines are cheap to replace right? Not to mention gearboxes are just a pint and a bag of crisps to replace?

[SOL111]

It never takes long before the same old bks starts up again lol.

[Poppiecock]

RobDickinson said:

You know most of that goes into phone batteries? That it's a tiny fraction of any mining, and that western ev companies are using certified materials and reducing reliance on cobalt etc?

Pisses me off when idiots like you talk about child labour and battery recycling whilst throwing away a phone every couple of years without a thought.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/the-hidden-...

Phones may not be perfect - but quantities are significantly lower. It's the ramping up of production to meet BEV demand that's going to be the big scandal of the next 10 years.

But you keep telling yourself that it's all perfectly fine because people use mobile phones.

[SWoll]

SOL111 said:

It never takes long before the same old bks starts up again lol.

Indeed, and from both sides of the argument.

I don't really give two sts about the environmental impact, but will say that not having cars spewing out crap and noise on busy city streets has got to improve the health and well being of the residents of those areas at the very least.

I just find EV's a far better solution for 99% of driving than ICE power and charging at home a much easier/cheaper alternative to queuing at fuel stations to pay £1.35 a litre for about 10 miles of range..

[Evanivitch]

Poppiecock said:

RobDickinson said:

You know most of that goes into phone batteries? That it's a tiny fraction of any mining, and that western ev companies are using certified materials and reducing reliance on cobalt etc?

Pisses me off when idiots like you talk about child labour and battery recycling whilst throwing away a phone every couple of years without a thought.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/the-hidden-...

Phones may not be perfect - but quantities are significantly lower. It's the ramping up of production to meet BEV demand that's going to be the big scandal of the next 10 years.

But you keep telling yourself that it's all perfectly fine because people use mobile phones.

Literally no one is pretending that cobalt is perfectly fine. Which is why the industry is investing billions in reducing and replacing cobalt in their cell manufacturing. Many Chinese models don't even use cobalt (LiFePo).

[SOL111]

SWoll said:

SOL111 said:

It never takes long before the same old bks starts up again lol.

Indeed, and from both sides of the argument.

I don't really give two sts about the environmental impact, but will say that not having cars spewing out crap and noise on busy city streets has got to improve the health and well being of the residents of those areas at the very least.

I just find EV's a far better solution for 99% of driving than ICE power and charging at home a much easier/cheaper alternative to queuing at fuel stations to pay £1.35 a litre for about 10 miles of range..

Agreed. I'm no more/less green than the average guy but admit that the lack of noise and fumes is a big benefit to my neighbours and pedestrians etc.

Are EVs greener overall than ICE when everything's considered? I have no idea (I'd like to think so) but I'm not going to argue the toss about it. Like you, I'm just interested in saving money, convenience and driving characteristics that suit my commute more.

[dobly]

We have 2 cars - a daily, which is 16 years old, in fine fettle and not at all costly/polluting to run, and a LEV-status weekend car which is 20 years old and will outlast me as it is all aluminium.
Until there is an EV that meets my requirements, I won't be in a position to change. As things stand, the plan is to build a house that produces enough off-grid renewable electricity for both domestic & motoring needs before buying an EV...

[Poppiecock]

Let’s face it. The reason people are buying EV is because there are tax advantages in running them.

People can plead all they like about the local environmental benefits, but all you’re doing is kicking the environmental impact down the road to the developing world. But I suppose that doesn’t matter so long as you can lord it over your neighbours by demonstrating your concern for the environment by buying a new car that could take 15-20 years to payback its impact on the environment.

It’s not just cobalt that’s a problem, it’s the lithium, too.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-...

Edited by Poppiecock on Monday 19th August 09:15

[Evanivitch]

Poppiecock said:

Let’s face it. The reason people are buying EV is because there are tax advantages in running them.

You think private car buyers are buying EV to avoid £140 a year?

[Poppiecock]

Evanivitch said:

Poppiecock said:

Let’s face it. The reason people are buying EV is because there are tax advantages in running them.

You think private car buyers are buying EV to avoid £140 a year?

And no fuel duty, only 5% VAT on charging at home plus a bung to buy one.

But to answer your question, some do, yes, hence people chopping in decent cars on scrappage for nil tax Korean hatchbacks.

[UnderSteerD]

Poppiecock said:

And no fuel duty, only 5% VAT on charging at home plus a bung to buy one.

But to answer your question, some do, yes, hence people chopping in decent cars on scrappage for nil tax Korean hatchbacks.

Can u dig it?

(Assuming I've got the reference correctly...)