Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Order66 said:
Smiljan said:
I can't believe someone actually said Tesla tech just works 
This is a company that had to be forced to recall cars to replace faulty MCU's, had battery management systems so bad that they had to cripple charge speeds and a lane keeping system that gets spooked by shadows and can't see stationary fire trucks, police cars or even walls
Lets face it, a car that needs constant software updates from build really isn't that well designed.
Indeed, as an owner, the software is simply sThis is a company that had to be forced to recall cars to replace faulty MCU's, had battery management systems so bad that they had to cripple charge speeds and a lane keeping system that gets spooked by shadows and can't see stationary fire trucks, police cars or even walls
Lets face it, a car that needs constant software updates from build really isn't that well designed.
t. They are skating by on quirkiness and hype - quality is simply appalling on all fronts, especially software.And in comparison to any number of other manufacturers I don't have to take it into a dealer for an OTA update that takes a day and risks bricking the car..
Misconception that only Tesla does over the air updates. They are no longer unique. My wife’s car gets quarterly over the air updates that add new functionality for free. Amazon Alexa was the last addition
I assume Swoll is the only Tesla owner never needing to reboot his car or have a phantom braking incident
As for Tesla doing their own thing, Musk is following the Apple route but Apple opened up to 3rd party apps excuse they could make more money that way. Musk is missing out on a nice little revenue stream by not offering an SDK, and he should be muscling in on the 3rd party apps using reverse engineered APIs. Be a massive win to keep the geeks happy
I assume Swoll is the only Tesla owner never needing to reboot his car or have a phantom braking incident
As for Tesla doing their own thing, Musk is following the Apple route but Apple opened up to 3rd party apps excuse they could make more money that way. Musk is missing out on a nice little revenue stream by not offering an SDK, and he should be muscling in on the 3rd party apps using reverse engineered APIs. Be a massive win to keep the geeks happy
Heres Johnny said:
I assume Swoll is the only Tesla owner never needing to reboot his car or have a phantom braking incident
To be fair, I know a couple of Tesla owners who have no major issues and the system works seamlessly. But I do also know other owners who have problem after problem and constant glitches. It does seem to affect older cars and I believe that the newer Model 3 & Y are better. But, that doesnt mean that they are perfect. One owner of a late 2019 Model 3 absolutely hates the Tesla navigation system - unintuitive, poor routing and lots of occasional issues. So much so, he gave up and just uses Google Maps on his phone now....But all of this is anecdotal though - its like the Porsche Boxster IMS bearing thing - it is widely reported to be both positive and negative for Tesla, but exactly how bad is it? The IMS bearing being a massively reported issue, but suspected to be a 5% affected range. How bad is the Tesla systems? Based on what I have seen, it seems 50% - but I cant believe that in reality. There would be thousands of owners up in arms.... its going to be a much smaller percentage.
I guess the low hanging fruits that impressed many, have been partly picked. I remember being quite chuffed when big updates like hold mode, one pedal driving, track mode, kept turning up month after month. But all the effort now seems to be on the FSD track, so it's all dried up.
It's reliable for me. I've had to reboot a couple of times, I think both for audio glitches. Once I rebooted whilst driving which was a little weird but it worked okay. Other than that, it's annoying to not have any traffic data, or any way to achieve traffic data, other than subscribing. Seems like a thin of the wedge I'm not quite ready to get behind. But the actual app is fine. In terms of UX, the screen is very responsive, which is important QoL feature for me. There is lots missing, eg waypoints, 360 view etc. But reliable? Yes very.
ETA sentry mode has saved me quite a bit of money too.
It's reliable for me. I've had to reboot a couple of times, I think both for audio glitches. Once I rebooted whilst driving which was a little weird but it worked okay. Other than that, it's annoying to not have any traffic data, or any way to achieve traffic data, other than subscribing. Seems like a thin of the wedge I'm not quite ready to get behind. But the actual app is fine. In terms of UX, the screen is very responsive, which is important QoL feature for me. There is lots missing, eg waypoints, 360 view etc. But reliable? Yes very.
ETA sentry mode has saved me quite a bit of money too.
Edited by aparna on Thursday 24th June 20:39
I've had the reboot problem once already in a couple of months of ownership.
For me some of the main software issues relates to the voice commands and the quality of the sat nav. With google it was excellent at nativating to the exact location. And you could speak the location, even a business name, and it got it right pretty much every time.
Trying to get Tesla to interpret a spoken location is very unreliable. So much so that I just now revert to typing it in.
I took my son to a paintball location on the weekend - and despite typing it in, the Tesla sat nav only got within 1.4miles of the correct location (despite entering the specific business name). I needed to use my phone to navigate to the correct location.
And it tends to use some strange routings, which are definitely not shorter when you take into account traffic. To the extent, I am now often double checking the route on google maps with my phone.
And trying to give the car a spoken instruction to call a specific contact from my phone is extremely unreliable. Whereas google was always spot on. I get a similar problem trying to get the car to play a specific album or band from spotify - although in that case it gets it 80% of the time. Google on the other hand was 99.9% consistent.
And I am sick of the "beep beep beep - you are going to crash" warnings which I can't seem to turn off if when the car "thinks" you are going to crash into something. It is so damn sensitive that any time driving in an urban environment where you have parked cars on the road, the number of false alarms it gives is tiring.
On the other hand, the Tesla app to control some aspects of the car is pretty good - a million times better than Jaguar could manage on the i-pace. And the superchargers are very easy to use. Again unlike the i-pace was I think I only managed a 50% hit rate at getting my first choice fast charger to work.
And I know everyone says it, but the range is very good. Had to do a long motorway run and if you stick to 70 mph the long range model 3 seems to get somewhere near to 300 miles. Whereas the i-pace could barely manage 200 miles despite having a much bigger battery.
For me some of the main software issues relates to the voice commands and the quality of the sat nav. With google it was excellent at nativating to the exact location. And you could speak the location, even a business name, and it got it right pretty much every time.
Trying to get Tesla to interpret a spoken location is very unreliable. So much so that I just now revert to typing it in.
I took my son to a paintball location on the weekend - and despite typing it in, the Tesla sat nav only got within 1.4miles of the correct location (despite entering the specific business name). I needed to use my phone to navigate to the correct location.
And it tends to use some strange routings, which are definitely not shorter when you take into account traffic. To the extent, I am now often double checking the route on google maps with my phone.
And trying to give the car a spoken instruction to call a specific contact from my phone is extremely unreliable. Whereas google was always spot on. I get a similar problem trying to get the car to play a specific album or band from spotify - although in that case it gets it 80% of the time. Google on the other hand was 99.9% consistent.
And I am sick of the "beep beep beep - you are going to crash" warnings which I can't seem to turn off if when the car "thinks" you are going to crash into something. It is so damn sensitive that any time driving in an urban environment where you have parked cars on the road, the number of false alarms it gives is tiring.
On the other hand, the Tesla app to control some aspects of the car is pretty good - a million times better than Jaguar could manage on the i-pace. And the superchargers are very easy to use. Again unlike the i-pace was I think I only managed a 50% hit rate at getting my first choice fast charger to work.
And I know everyone says it, but the range is very good. Had to do a long motorway run and if you stick to 70 mph the long range model 3 seems to get somewhere near to 300 miles. Whereas the i-pace could barely manage 200 miles despite having a much bigger battery.
Heres Johnny said:
Misconception that only Tesla does over the air updates. They are no longer unique. My wife’s car gets quarterly over the air updates that add new functionality for free. Amazon Alexa was the last addition
I assume Swoll is the only Tesla owner never needing to reboot his car or have a phantom braking incident
As for Tesla doing their own thing, Musk is following the Apple route but Apple opened up to 3rd party apps excuse they could make more money that way. Musk is missing out on a nice little revenue stream by not offering an SDK, and he should be muscling in on the 3rd party apps using reverse engineered APIs. Be a massive win to keep the geeks happy
Misconception is a huge thing with Tesla-a high number of sales are due to buyers actually thinking it drives itself. I assume Swoll is the only Tesla owner never needing to reboot his car or have a phantom braking incident
As for Tesla doing their own thing, Musk is following the Apple route but Apple opened up to 3rd party apps excuse they could make more money that way. Musk is missing out on a nice little revenue stream by not offering an SDK, and he should be muscling in on the 3rd party apps using reverse engineered APIs. Be a massive win to keep the geeks happy
Heres Johnny said:
I assume Swoll is the only Tesla owner never needing to reboot his car or have a phantom braking incident
Think I've had to force a reboot once in 20 months (Spotify Issue). Phantom braking isn't something I struggle with as don't do a lot of motorway driving but have heard mixed reports.Far from perfect certainly, but when I read comments about how terrible it is with regards to software, build quality etc. it doesn't square with my personal experience with the car so like to add a bit of balance to the discussion. Ours will be making way for something new soon anyway.
Need a vote of confidence from one of your biggest suppliers / partners?
Not only are Panasonic not providing battery exclusivity but they sold of their entire share holdings? You would tthink they were one of Tesla's directors acting like that.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2021/06/2...
Not only are Panasonic not providing battery exclusivity but they sold of their entire share holdings? You would tthink they were one of Tesla's directors acting like that.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2021/06/2...
Greggsybabe said:
Need a vote of confidence from one of your biggest suppliers / partners?
Not only are Panasonic not providing battery exclusivity but they sold of their entire share holdings? You would tthink they were one of Tesla's directors acting like that.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2021/06/2...
Panasonic invested in Tesla to get a return. Selling their shares for a return of around 155% pa over 11 years seems a smart thing to do - what benefit holding further? Hardly seems like a vote of no confidence to me - more like canny timing.Not only are Panasonic not providing battery exclusivity but they sold of their entire share holdings? You would tthink they were one of Tesla's directors acting like that.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2021/06/2...
skwdenyer said:
what benefit holding further?
More growth. You look at the return on capital deployed and they obviously think they’ll get not just a better return elsewhere, a return low enough it’s worth reducing their borrowings, both of which means they think Tesla stock performance will be pretty average going forward. As an aside, since the beginning of this year Ford has outperformed Tesla and Bitcoin
skwdenyer said:
Panasonic invested in Tesla to get a return. Selling their shares for a return of around 155% pa over 11 years seems a smart thing to do - what benefit holding further? Hardly seems like a vote of no confidence to me - more like canny timing.
Canny timing? So you agree with Panasonic that Tesla have peaked for the foreseeable?SWoll said:
Heres Johnny said:
I assume Swoll is the only Tesla owner never needing to reboot his car or have a phantom braking incident
Think I've had to force a reboot once in 20 months (Spotify Issue). Phantom braking isn't something I struggle with as don't do a lot of motorway driving but have heard mixed reports.Far from perfect certainly, but when I read comments about how terrible it is with regards to software, build quality etc. it doesn't square with my personal experience with the car so like to add a bit of balance to the discussion. Ours will be making way for something new soon anyway.
I could criticise the sat nav - as I could on any car I've owned. I generally prefer to use Waze in any event.
I would highly recommend the car.
You had no issues on your almost brand new low mileage Tesla yet you needed to reboot it to get it working again? Which is it - no issues or needed rebooting?
My laughing earlier when someone commented that Tesla's software just works was genuine. They've actually been forced to replace the control units on thousands of cars because they don't just work. A few owners with almost new Model 3's saying their cars have been great doesn't change that fact.
Like any manufacturer, they are plagued with issues. It's part of mass manufacturing a complicated machine with many electronic and moving parts.
Tesla owners seem to be strangely defensive about how their cars are perfect, never go wrong, all the people who do complain about faults must be making it up etc.. etc... It's bizarre.
As for the software updates, why does it need constant bug fixes for each software update (a la Apple) and why do some owners seem to love updates? For every other device it's a pain the arse. Tesla however have you buy the balls as the warranty insists you have to install most of the updates else - void.
It's probably best you take off the blinkers, read the forums and try to catch any issues before they rear their heads rather than burying your head in the sand and insisting your car is and will always be perfect. In the case of the Model S some careful preventative maintenance can save a lot of ££££ in the future. For the Model 3, having it on a ramp and checking everything is fitted properly and all the suspension and braking components are installed to the right torque could save you from much worse. Sad to say but you currently can't trust their quality control to catch any lapses.
Maybe part of the problem is leases, if you lease your shiny new Model 3 and don't intend to keep it for more than a couple of years perhaps you don't care. The second owner can pick up the pieces.
Anyway, back to my Golf where I know the common issues and accept they exist
My laughing earlier when someone commented that Tesla's software just works was genuine. They've actually been forced to replace the control units on thousands of cars because they don't just work. A few owners with almost new Model 3's saying their cars have been great doesn't change that fact.
Like any manufacturer, they are plagued with issues. It's part of mass manufacturing a complicated machine with many electronic and moving parts.
Tesla owners seem to be strangely defensive about how their cars are perfect, never go wrong, all the people who do complain about faults must be making it up etc.. etc... It's bizarre.
As for the software updates, why does it need constant bug fixes for each software update (a la Apple) and why do some owners seem to love updates? For every other device it's a pain the arse. Tesla however have you buy the balls as the warranty insists you have to install most of the updates else - void.
It's probably best you take off the blinkers, read the forums and try to catch any issues before they rear their heads rather than burying your head in the sand and insisting your car is and will always be perfect. In the case of the Model S some careful preventative maintenance can save a lot of ££££ in the future. For the Model 3, having it on a ramp and checking everything is fitted properly and all the suspension and braking components are installed to the right torque could save you from much worse. Sad to say but you currently can't trust their quality control to catch any lapses.
Maybe part of the problem is leases, if you lease your shiny new Model 3 and don't intend to keep it for more than a couple of years perhaps you don't care. The second owner can pick up the pieces.
Anyway, back to my Golf where I know the common issues and accept they exist
Edited by Smiljan on Friday 25th June 09:26
NDA said:
I've averaged a thousand miles a month in mine since buying it at the end of last year. I've had no issues, in fact less issues than any car I've owned with similar mileages. I was given a free trial of 'full self driving' - it wasn't for me and I had one reboot (in 7 months) when trying to connect to my home's flakey wifi. Not an issue.
I could criticise the sat nav - as I could on any car I've owned. I generally prefer to use Waze in any event.
I would highly recommend the car.
1800km/month since November last year, and generally very pleased.I could criticise the sat nav - as I could on any car I've owned. I generally prefer to use Waze in any event.
I would highly recommend the car.
Only gripe is indeed the so-called cruise control (AP) and the associated phantom braking. I do a lot of two-lane autoroute miles between Geneva and Burgundy. A truck/coach/large car on the inside lane only needs to be slightly close to the centre line, and my trying to overtake in the centre of the outside lane more often than not triggers phantom braking. Not to mention slightly billowing side curtains on trucks/trailers.
The only solutions are to drive closer than is ideal/safe to the central reservation, or (what I do) momentarily to deactivate auto-pilot whilst overtaking and reactivate after passing the potential 'obstruction'. The latter would be made a lot easier by the implementation of a simple 'resume' function, but this also seems to be beyond the wit of Tesla software designers.
Even when not on AP, there are too many unnecessary warnings of impending collision, when it is just a large vehicle coming in the opposition direction, e.g. through a traffic-calming chicane which are placed at the entrance/exit of many Swiss villages. And if the chicane is on a bend in the road, the Tesla starts bleeping and klaxoning like WWIII is about to start, but it's just the so-called 'driver aids' being hugely overzealous. Yes, you can turn most of this s
te down to the least intrusive levels possible, but these settings are not all stored in the driver profile, so are lost once you get out of the car.The satnav is tolerable, no better than in my old 2010 Audi A4; the infotainment interface is OK, though clunky if reading FLAC/mp3 from a USB stick.
It is a very good car in many ways, but for my taste, driving style and journey profile, to be a great car it needs just a few small software tweaks, mostly in the area of driver discretion. Given that Mr Musk is such a libertarian, it is strange that the TM3 is such a nannying vehicle in many ways!
Edited by Michael_B on Friday 25th June 09:25
NDA said:
I've averaged a thousand miles a month in mine since buying it at the end of last year. I've had no issues, in fact less issues than any car I've owned with similar mileages. I was given a free trial of 'full self driving' - it wasn't for me and I had one reboot (in 7 months) when trying to connect to my home's flakey wifi. Not an issue.
I could criticise the sat nav - as I could on any car I've owned. I generally prefer to use Waze in any event.
I would highly recommend the car.
Another owner here for about two years now. Needed one reboot during the two years, the day after an update.I could criticise the sat nav - as I could on any car I've owned. I generally prefer to use Waze in any event.
I would highly recommend the car.
I like the sat-nav very much, but I do prefer google maps over waze which might help.
As per NDA, never had this little issues with a car. 40k km (hardly done any last year) and went through 1 pair of tyres, will have to replace the other pair as well sone. Nothing else. Quite impressive for a "high-tech" 4wd 500+hp family car imo.
Smiljan said:
...
It's probably best you take off the blinkers, read the forums and try to catch any issues before they rear their heads rather than burying your head in the sand and insisting your car is and will always be perfect. .....
Blinkers are more of a present tense thing. How would you suggest I get ahead of any catastrophic software failure issues, before they happen?It's probably best you take off the blinkers, read the forums and try to catch any issues before they rear their heads rather than burying your head in the sand and insisting your car is and will always be perfect. .....
Are you the same guy who insisted on the Plaid thread, a Golf R would win over 5 laps?
Edited by aparna on Friday 25th June 14:19
Meh, even the most unreliable cars have fans.
In fact, look at the botom list in reliability. Jaguar, Alfa, Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes, Audi. It's a who's who of brands with a stout fanbase.
Hell, this forum used to be a TVR forum. I wonder if it was filled with VAG fanboys then who complained about build quality, interior plastics and put them over 0-60 times on every opportunity
In fact, look at the botom list in reliability. Jaguar, Alfa, Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes, Audi. It's a who's who of brands with a stout fanbase.
Hell, this forum used to be a TVR forum. I wonder if it was filled with VAG fanboys then who complained about build quality, interior plastics and put them over 0-60 times on every opportunity
skwdenyer said:
Panasonic invested in Tesla to get a return. Selling their shares for a return of around 155% pa over 11 years seems a smart thing to do - what benefit holding further? Hardly seems like a vote of no confidence to me - more like canny timing.
At face value that return is quite nice but lets not forget Panasonic have had to restructure their deal with Tesla and take how many hits over the last few years? At least knowing they were a shareholder does explain why they were willing to accept pretty significant losses rather than play hardball. aparna said:
Blinkers are more of a present tense thing. How would you suggest I get ahead of any catastrophic software failure issues, before they happen?
Are you the same guy who insisted on the Plaid thread, a Golf R would win over 5 laps?
No I’m not. The Golf R isn’t a track car so that would just be daft. I’ve not even mentioned catastrophic software failure issues either, just said it wasn’t perfect like any other car isn’t perfect.Are you the same guy who insisted on the Plaid thread, a Golf R would win over 5 laps?
Edited by aparna on Friday 25th June 09:47
Not sure what your on about really,
ZesPak said:
Meh, even the most unreliable cars have fans.
In fact, look at the botom list in reliability. Jaguar, Alfa, Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes, Audi. It's a who's who of brands with a stout fanbase.
Hell, this forum used to be a TVR forum. I wonder if it was filled with VAG fanboys then who complained about build quality, interior plastics and put them over 0-60 times on every opportunity
Good point, I’m not against people being enthusiastic about their cars, proclaiming all others are finished and everyTesla is faultless is just a bit, you know, weird.In fact, look at the botom list in reliability. Jaguar, Alfa, Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes, Audi. It's a who's who of brands with a stout fanbase.
Hell, this forum used to be a TVR forum. I wonder if it was filled with VAG fanboys then who complained about build quality, interior plastics and put them over 0-60 times on every opportunity
There are some realistic posters on this thread that own Tesla cars, there are also quite a lot who are just a little bit fanatical.
Edited by Smiljan on Friday 25th June 11:08
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