EVs in a jam.

Author
Discussion

SWoll

18,206 posts

257 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
theboss said:
blueacid said:
However, it costs a fair chunk for an individual road user to switch to winter tyres (especially if they buy a second set of wheels so they can swap in winter/summer). They're free not to swap to winter tyres, but equally they might want to spend the cash. If many across the country made the change, it would also be well into the millions-if-not-billions for that change.

What's the difference?
Winters are hardly unaffordable - if a set of tyres is too great an outlay for a motorist I’d suggest their priorities are all wrong. Plenty of poor countries in Eastern Europe and the Balkans where wages are a fraction of ours yet every rusting little stbox has winters fitted.
Because they are a legal requirement and/or an absolute necessity for travel for a significant portion of the year? Neither is the case in the UK.

mikeswagon

684 posts

140 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
jjwilde said:
Did people on facebook put him right on his made up lies?
I didn't bother looking further, I'm guessing the people who did were joining him on the bandwagon.

InitialDave

11,854 posts

118 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
But the comparison between trying a winter tyre compared to a summer tyre, isn't in any way relatable to trying an EV car to an ICE car
It doesn't need to be. It's not a comparison of the two, it's a comparison of how people who've actually tried something opine on the subject as against those who haven't.


xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
InitialDave said:
xjay1337 said:
But the comparison between trying a winter tyre compared to a summer tyre, isn't in any way relatable to trying an EV car to an ICE car
It doesn't need to be. It's not a comparison of the two, it's a comparison of how people who've actually tried something opine on the subject as against those who haven't.
Ok.. I'm not sure I follow.

Let's say you haven't tried a Winter tyre, because you do all your driving in a warmer climate.

But the people who do use Winter tyres (in a way that works for the tyres and their usage), come onto a Forum predominantly populated by people who like Summer tyres, saying that since they've tried winter tyres, they hate summer tyres.

Those who use summer tyres and find that winter tyres would be a net-negative impact on their motoring experience say no thanks.

Then the winter tyre owners slate all the summer tyre drivers and claim they are killing the environment and murdering polar bears.

theboss

6,878 posts

218 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
SWoll said:
Because they are a legal requirement and/or an absolute necessity for travel for a significant portion of the year? Neither is the case in the UK.
Legal requirement yes, but not necessarily an absolute requirement as parts of Europe where winter tyres are mandatory haven’t had any snow this season. And this doesn’t alter the cost / affordability of them.

I’m don’t dispute the questionable value of them in this country with widespread snow events being relatively rare, but I don’t agree that they require significant outlay unless the prospect of putting 4 new tyres on one’s car causes distress, in which case I’d recommend using public transport instead.

PushedDover

5,622 posts

52 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
InitialDave said:
xjay1337 said:
But the comparison between trying a winter tyre compared to a summer tyre, isn't in any way relatable to trying an EV car to an ICE car
It doesn't need to be. It's not a comparison of the two, it's a comparison of how people who've actually tried something opine on the subject as against those who haven't.
Ok.. I'm not sure I follow.

Let's say you haven't tried a Winter tyre, because you do all your driving in a warmer climate.

But the people who do use Winter tyres (in a way that works for the tyres and their usage), come onto a Forum predominantly populated by people who like Summer tyres, saying that since they've tried winter tyres, they hate summer tyres.

Those who use summer tyres and find that winter tyres would be a net-negative impact on their motoring experience say no thanks.

Then the winter tyre owners slate all the summer tyre drivers and claim they are killing the environment and murdering polar bears.
Painful.

Still not grasping the point are you?

Those that have used Winter tyres on the whole believe that they are damn well worth it (financially / hassle for a change etc)
Many on PH have not tried Winter tyres but will happily waste time and life to argue against this actual known experience and understanding of how a winter tyre is actually a good thing. By someone generally who has no experience of what the are against.



xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
Still not getting the point.

The whole fact winter tyres was brought up is stupid.

Can we not go back to arguing about engines ?

PushedDover

5,622 posts

52 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Still not getting the point.

The whole fact winter tyres was brought up is stupid.

Can we not go back to arguing about engines ?
The Point. Hmmm. Have you got and owned an EV?
If not how do you know they are crap as you claim.

moving on:

Discussing would suggest a destination.
Your request for Arguing is what is the norm here with (your) entrenched positions and no one walks away satisfied.


Have fun thumbup

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
Have I ever said in this discussion that EV's are crap?

NO.

I've said the infrastructure is not ready

I love your deliberate misrepresentation of my stance on EV cars.
It's almost like you've not even read my points of view regarding EV and the problems of charging for many people and those who do a lot of miles or driving on the continent.

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKWEn1yFIws

This was also interesting for those who need to charge a lot on the road. .

PushedDover

5,622 posts

52 months

Monday 24th February 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Have I ever said in this discussion that EV's are crap?

NO.

I've said the infrastructure is not ready

I love your deliberate misrepresentation of my stance on EV cars.
It's almost like you've not even read my points of view regarding EV and the problems of charging for many people and those who do a lot of miles or driving on the continent.
Those who have EV's have told you the problem you imagine do not exist in the real world.
Yet you claim they do.

Heve you the experience of owning an EV ?

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
PushedDover said:
xjay1337 said:
Have I ever said in this discussion that EV's are crap?

NO.

I've said the infrastructure is not ready

I love your deliberate misrepresentation of my stance on EV cars.
It's almost like you've not even read my points of view regarding EV and the problems of charging for many people and those who do a lot of miles or driving on the continent.
Those who have EV's have told you the problem you imagine do not exist in the real world.
Yet you claim they do.

Heve you the experience of owning an EV ?
I don't need experience of owning an EV to know it wouldn't work for me currently, certainly not as an only car.... what a silly stance to take. "You haven't tried it".

There is enough information online, charging maps , route planners etc where I can reasonably assume what my motoring life would be like.

I can't own an EV as an only car, because I do a lot of miles, sometimes at short notice - there is no charging infrastructure at all in my home town, and while I could charge on long trips , that's not always feasible due to my destination not having a suitably fast charger and the majority of my actual driving is longer journeys rather than lots of short trips , where I recently used a planner to show that even using a Tesla Model 3 Long Range I'd still be something like like 1hr30 later home to my family than I was in my ICE car. And in one of those Kia E niros it would be even longer.
That's time and money I don't have to waste.

I'm lucky to have a driveway but 40% of people do not. So i could home charge of my ICE was my only car.

The whole issue I have is the government are forcing people into a technology which is not ready. No where to charge for street parking or communal car park users. Not enough chargers in enough locations to support 100% of new cars being EV.

Yes, it's in the future but as I have said before I don't think the infrastructure will be ready because rather than nake it easy for people to move into EV by saying by 2030 we will have enough charging points installed on the road, car parks and homes to enable you to have no issues moving to an EV car by say 2035, they have simply gone "you're moving to EV 2032 if you like it or not" and leaving the public and private companies to figure out how

Piss poor preparation results in piss poor performance.

There hasn't even been a very simple announcement which could help - Government could mandate home builders to ensure that every new house has a charge point in the garage / driveway and that every communal housing parking spot also has a charging spot.

Wouldnt really cost a lot, the wiring can be ran and installed during construction. And imagine the cost reduction if now every house has a 32 amp charger.

Where as a PHEV would be great, satisfy both camps..........and give time for infrastructure to catch up
stupid government as usual.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
PushedDover said:
xjay1337 said:
Have I ever said in this discussion that EV's are crap?

NO.

I've said the infrastructure is not ready

I love your deliberate misrepresentation of my stance on EV cars.
It's almost like you've not even read my points of view regarding EV and the problems of charging for many people and those who do a lot of miles or driving on the continent.
Those who have EV's have told you the problem you imagine do not exist in the real world.
Yet you claim they do.

Heve you the experience of owning an EV ?
I don't need experience of owning an EV to know it wouldn't work for me currently, certainly not as an only car.... what a silly stance to take. "You haven't tried it".

There is enough information online, charging maps , route planners etc where I can reasonably assume what my motoring life would be like.

I can't own an EV as an only car, because I do a lot of miles, sometimes at short notice - there is no charging infrastructure at all in my home town, and while I could charge on long trips , that's not always feasible due to my destination not having a suitably fast charger and the majority of my actual driving is longer journeys rather than lots of short trips , where I recently used a planner to show that even using a Tesla Model 3 Long Range I'd still be something like like 1hr30 later home to my family than I was in my ICE car. And in one of those Kia E niros it would be even longer.
That's time and money I don't have to waste.

I'm lucky to have a driveway but 40% of people do not. So i could home charge of my ICE was my only car.

The whole issue I have is the government are forcing people into a technology which is not ready. No where to charge for street parking or communal car park users. Not enough chargers in enough locations to support 100% of new cars being EV.

Yes, it's in the future but as I have said before I don't think the infrastructure will be ready because rather than nake it easy for people to move into EV by saying by 2030 we will have enough charging points installed on the road, car parks and homes to enable you to have no issues moving to an EV car by say 2035, they have simply gone "you're moving to EV 2032 if you like it or not" and leaving the public and private companies to figure out how

Piss poor preparation results in piss poor performance.

There hasn't even been a very simple announcement which could help - Government could mandate home builders to ensure that every new house has a charge point in the garage / driveway and that every communal housing parking spot also has a charging spot.

Wouldnt really cost a lot, the wiring can be ran and installed during construction. And imagine the cost reduction if now every house has a 32 amp charger.

Where as a PHEV would be great, satisfy both camps..........and give time for infrastructure to catch up
stupid government as usual.
Just to point out that although 40% of properties don't have driveways, it's only 16% of car owners who don't, according to PWC ( https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/mi... )

As for requiring charging points to be included in all new builds - I guess you missed the consultation announced over 6 months ago about changing planning regs to require that. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-car-ch...


We don't need enough chargers to support 100% EV takeup yet though, for the simple reason that would take at least 10 years for even 80% of the cars on the road to be EVs, given the average life expectancy of vehicles. So planning a ramp-up in installations over that period seems entirely sensible.

tamore

6,782 posts

283 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
the usual tribal PH nonsense has broken out yet again. there's a good few people an EV would be a right pain in the arse for at the moment, no doubt. more and more however are realising that the article they believed in the daily xxxxx is a load of tosh, and an EV is actually more advantageous in many ways

with the rate of change though, by 2032 burning stuff under the bonnet to move a car around will almost seem as weird as typing in a video+ code to record a TV programme, or plonking a diamond tipped needle onto a spinning plastic disc to listen to music. there will be people still rumbling about in a 'classic', but it will cause heads to turn, and places to refill them will become scarce.

SWoll

18,206 posts

257 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
rscott said:
Just to point out that although 40% of properties don't have driveways, it's only 16% of car owners who don't, according to PWC ( https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/mi... )

As for requiring charging points to be included in all new builds - I guess you missed the consultation announced over 6 months ago about changing planning regs to require that. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-car-ch...


We don't need enough chargers to support 100% EV takeup yet though, for the simple reason that would take at least 10 years for even 80% of the cars on the road to be EVs, given the average life expectancy of vehicles. So planning a ramp-up in installations over that period seems entirely sensible.
yes

Spot on.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
SWoll said:
rscott said:
Just to point out that although 40% of properties don't have driveways, it's only 16% of car owners who don't, according to PWC ( https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/mi... )

As for requiring charging points to be included in all new builds - I guess you missed the consultation announced over 6 months ago about changing planning regs to require that. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-car-ch...


We don't need enough chargers to support 100% EV takeup yet though, for the simple reason that would take at least 10 years for even 80% of the cars on the road to be EVs, given the average life expectancy of vehicles. So planning a ramp-up in installations over that period seems entirely sensible.
yes

Spot on.
There's also the small matter that EV production rates aren't high enough to cause issues with supply of charging points (or power in the grid) yet.

ZesPak

24,421 posts

195 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
Some of the fast charging network still needs a bit of work on peak days, as proven last weekend for the Dutch taking a ski vacation. Though the articles I've seen seem to be more anecdotal than a structural issue.

R Mutt

5,882 posts

71 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
This scenario would worry me as being unable to charge at home I'd rarely be setting of with 100% charge but in a jam I'd just turn AC off if low on battery.

squirdan

1,082 posts

146 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
rscott said:
SWoll said:
rscott said:
Just to point out that although 40% of properties don't have driveways, it's only 16% of car owners who don't, according to PWC ( https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/regional-sites/mi... )

As for requiring charging points to be included in all new builds - I guess you missed the consultation announced over 6 months ago about changing planning regs to require that. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-car-ch...


We don't need enough chargers to support 100% EV takeup yet though, for the simple reason that would take at least 10 years for even 80% of the cars on the road to be EVs, given the average life expectancy of vehicles. So planning a ramp-up in installations over that period seems entirely sensible.
yes

Spot on.
There's also the small matter that EV production rates aren't high enough to cause issues with supply of charging points (or power in the grid) yet.
plus in a few years we will have Vehicle 2 Grid which will help manage peak and trough demand, with the cars not being driven at any time able to discharge power back into the grid and recharge when demand is low. As per the current Octopus trial. Bloody annoying Teslas dont have V2G capability because most of the time at peak leccy demand my M3 is sat there doing nothing

Evanivitch

19,802 posts

121 months

Tuesday 25th February 2020
quotequote all
squirdan said:
plus in a few years we will have Vehicle 2 Grid which will help manage peak and trough demand, with the cars not being driven at any time able to discharge power back into the grid and recharge when demand is low. As per the current Octopus trial. Bloody annoying Teslas dont have V2G capability because most of the time at peak leccy demand my M3 is sat there doing nothing
V2G isn't currently available on anything but Chademo, and only Leaf and Outlander have it.

Until we get V2G/H through Type 2 or CCS then it won't happen. And obviously backwards compatibility is unlikely.