Base Tesla cheaper overall than a £5K barge ?

[Heres Johnny]

otolith said:

No, I was saying that the warranty and what Tesla think is irrelevant looking at the real world data which seems to suggest that degradation is pretty low.

You really need to get out and talk to some Tesla 85 owners

[otolith]

Heres Johnny said:

otolith said:

No, I was saying that the warranty and what Tesla think is irrelevant looking at the real world data which seems to suggest that degradation is pretty low.

You really need to get out and talk to some Tesla 85 owners

Ah, OK, I've not heard about that. How much degradation have they got then?

[Gandahar]

otolith said:

ZesPak said:

I've never seen a car doing realistically do 60mpg in any sort of mileage tbh...

My old Citroen AX 1.5D would do 60+ mpg all day long. It would still do 50+ if you drove it like your pubes were on fire.

I did 83mpg over 100 miles and 124mph down a hill in one weekend in a diesel 1.4d Yaris. Like Otilith says small cars with relatively big diesel engines are epic.

Around town for dog walks it does 58mpg, on the way to drop my daughter off at school high 60's to low 70s.

It's done 110k miles and can still do it.....

[Gandahar]

sjtgeray said:

Having owned a (now) shedworthy V8 for almost 10 years, my man-maths seem to be suggesting that a Tesla replacement might make more sense than another < £5K barge-type car. I can buy for cash via my Limited Company which i think would save Corporation Tax and personal tax if i took the money out of the company.
Could someone more knowledgeable than I take a look at my cost comparison table in this thread and check i am not way off...assumes 10 years, 100K comparison against current car....thanks

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

You need to scroll down the thread on page 1 to get to my "maths"

Get this instead

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

You get more space and save money. It's more "wife maths" than man maths, ie accurate.

[Cheeses of Nazareth]

One thing about sub £5k cars is you never lose more than £5k on them

If you shop wisely , you can get sub £1k cars that are just as good a buy . You will only ever lose £800 on them.

That's assuming you use them for transport and not joy of ownership

[Heres Johnny]

otolith said:

Heres Johnny said:

otolith said:

No, I was saying that the warranty and what Tesla think is irrelevant looking at the real world data which seems to suggest that degradation is pretty low.

You really need to get out and talk to some Tesla 85 owners

Ah, OK, I've not heard about that. How much degradation have they got then?

Google chargedate and batterygate, the class action in the US, the NDA Tesla are getting UK owners to sign as part of settlements when threatened with court action and the reason Tesla have excluded range loss when caused by a software update.

[sjtgeray]

Get this instead

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

You get more space and save money. It's more "wife maths" than man maths, ie accurate.

---

Oh lordy, an estate (yuk) and a diesel (no, no for me - should be banned ) .....more pollutants than my old A8, which is surprisingly free in the ULEZ zone

[otolith]

Heres Johnny said:

otolith said:

Heres Johnny said:

otolith said:

No, I was saying that the warranty and what Tesla think is irrelevant looking at the real world data which seems to suggest that degradation is pretty low.

You really need to get out and talk to some Tesla 85 owners

Ah, OK, I've not heard about that. How much degradation have they got then?

Google chargedate and batterygate, the class action in the US, the NDA Tesla are getting UK owners to sign as part of settlements when threatened with court action and the reason Tesla have excluded range loss when caused by a software update.

Right, and that seems a fair thing to have a pop at Tesla over, they've reduced the usable range or charging speed with a software update and said it doesn't count as degradation for warranty purposes, but it doesn't to me support the idea that it will be dead the day after the warranty expires.

[gangzoom]

sjtgeray said:

I take a look at my cost comparison table in this thread and check i am not way off...assumes 10 years, 100K comparison against current car....thanks

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

You need to scroll down the thread on page 1 to get to my "maths"

You are not wrong based on your figures.

£8790 running costs for 10 years, 100k of fuel at 25mpg assuming 123p/litre, initial £3k purchase = £35k!!

I'be done 43k in our Teslas, maintenance cost = £550 for a set of tyes, and fuel has been 4p per mile (rounded up), £1700.

BUT our cars is still under warranty, and it goes in for warranty work roughly every 6 months, what the costs of ownership is like after the warranty expires I'll let you know in a few years .

However pending disastrous maintenance costs a used Model S at £30k kept for 100k will be cheaper to own than your current £3k barge.

I also think due to the low running costs used EVs will hold their prices very well, as your example is a very good one. People who would usually never consider a £30k car all of a sudden can justify one without too much man maths!!

Do get an OBD/Tesla scanner tool to read the real life battery voltage/charging speed of any Model S you look at though. Save your self the headache about getting a 'bad' pack.

[gangzoom]

For anyone buying a used Tesla I would go as far to say as an OBD/Tesla scanner tool is 100% necessary.

As well as helping you avoid a bad battery pack - so low overall pack capacity and/or limited max DC charge rate - both of which is reported by the tool, you can also see how much DC (Supercharging) the pack has done. In general the more DC charging a car has done the more stressed the battery pack has been. Tesla actively LIMITS the speed of Supercharging on ALL their cars if you Supercharge them too much, 60/70/75/85/90/100 packs have all been shown to be effected, AND this also includes the Model 3.



You can see on my car at 32K miles, I've only used Supercharging for 5% of total trips, where as some used Ss might have spent most of their life been Supercharged! As an result you might be lucky to see 80KW Supercharging speeds, where as our cars can now hit just under 120KW.

These cars do last well, but an abused one will show the signs, and don't count on Tesla to bail you our, the 8 year warranty on the pack might as be useless when it comes to pack capacity and/or charge rate.

[SWoll]

gangzoom said:

For anyone buying a used Tesla I would go as far to say as an OBD/Tesla scanner tool is 100% necessary.

As well as helping you avoid a bad battery pack - so low overall pack capacity and/or limited max DC charge rate - both of which is reported by the tool, you can also see how much DC (Supercharging) the pack has done. In general the more DC charging a car has done the more stressed the battery pack has been. Tesla actively LIMITS the speed of Supercharging on ALL their cars if you Supercharge them too much, 60/70/75/85/90/100 packs have all been shown to be effected, AND this also includes the Model 3.



You can see on my car at 32K miles, I've only used Supercharging for 5% of total trips, where as some used Ss might have spent most of their life been Supercharged! As an result you might be lucky to see 80KW Supercharging speeds, where as our cars can now hit just under 120KW.

These cars do last well, but an abused one will show the signs, and don't count on Tesla to bail you our, the 8 year warranty on the pack might as be useless when it comes to pack capacity and/or charge rate.

Good information. My only comment would be using the term 'an abused one' for a car that has been supercharged regularly? Using the public charging network provided by the manufacturer to improve charge speeds on a regular basis shouldn't be considered abuse surely?

[audi321]

gangzoom said:

For anyone buying a used Tesla I would go as far to say as an OBD/Tesla scanner tool is 100% necessary.

As well as helping you avoid a bad battery pack - so low overall pack capacity and/or limited max DC charge rate - both of which is reported by the tool, you can also see how much DC (Supercharging) the pack has done. In general the more DC charging a car has done the more stressed the battery pack has been. Tesla actively LIMITS the speed of Supercharging on ALL their cars if you Supercharge them too much, 60/70/75/85/90/100 packs have all been shown to be effected, AND this also includes the Model 3.



You can see on my car at 32K miles, I've only used Supercharging for 5% of total trips, where as some used Ss might have spent most of their life been Supercharged! As an result you might be lucky to see 80KW Supercharging speeds, where as our cars can now hit just under 120KW.

These cars do last well, but an abused one will show the signs, and don't count on Tesla to bail you our, the 8 year warranty on the pack might as be useless when it comes to pack capacity and/or charge rate.

Can you link to a tool that gives this information?

[Heres Johnny]

otolith said:

Heres Johnny said:

otolith said:

Heres Johnny said:

otolith said:

No, I was saying that the warranty and what Tesla think is irrelevant looking at the real world data which seems to suggest that degradation is pretty low.

You really need to get out and talk to some Tesla 85 owners

Ah, OK, I've not heard about that. How much degradation have they got then?

Google chargedate and batterygate, the class action in the US, the NDA Tesla are getting UK owners to sign as part of settlements when threatened with court action and the reason Tesla have excluded range loss when caused by a software update.

Right, and that seems a fair thing to have a pop at Tesla over, they've reduced the usable range or charging speed with a software update and said it doesn't count as degradation for warranty purposes, but it doesn't to me support the idea that it will be dead the day after the warranty expires.

I don’t disagree, it won’t die on the first day after the warranty ends, but if you read my point it was that degradation is worse than the article in 2018 suggested, and Tesla are protecting themselves more than ever and so it appears they have less faith in the million mile battery they talk about than anyone. But... I also said there will be lots of options in the future to get refurbed battery packs etc.

It’s getting predictable now, Tesla announce faster charging while actually reducing the speeds for many through a slight of hand trick where they increase the peak rate for 3 nanoseconds but the time to charge from say 20-80% is now the slowest it’s been for many. And I recon it’s exactly the same with the news the Long range cars now have an extra 3 mile range, it’s dead easy, you allow the cars to charge to 0.01v higher on the battery pack t get an extra 1 or 2 kwh in there, and then take it away the following day in accordance with their warranty document via a software update.

And people fall for it.

[gangzoom]

SWoll said:

Good information. My only comment would be using the term 'an abused one' for a car that has been supercharged regularly? Using the public charging network provided by the manufacturer to improve charge speeds on a regular basis shouldn't be considered abuse surely?

You can drive any combustion car at the rev red line all the time, which is also a manufacture approved limit, but we all can agree that driving a combustion car to the red line all the time would be abusing the car.

Any kind fo DC rapid charging is bad for batteries, and the rates at which SuperChargers/Ionity deliver electricity is the equivalent of running a combustion engine at the red line for 30-40 minutes non stop. Personally I wouldn't touch any used EVs which has had a large amount of DC charging as its total millage, your storing up problems for the future.

Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 22 February 13:48

[gangzoom]

audi321 said:

Can you link to a tool that gives this information?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.emon.canbus.tesla&hl=en_GB

This is the App, you need to source a suitable adaptor to plug into the car, I don't think its hard to make one and get a cheap OBD/Bluetooth transmitter off eBay, but am lazy so paid the £50 or so for someone else to do it for me.

https://e-mobility-driving-solutions.com/produkt-k...

[ZesPak]

SWoll said:

Good information. My only comment would be using the term 'an abused one' for a car that has been supercharged regularly? Using the public charging network provided by the manufacturer to improve charge speeds on a regular basis shouldn't be considered abuse surely?

Agreed, "abuse" might sound a bit harsh, but one could argue that a Porsche is a racecar, but one that's done 30k on the track or 30k on the road will have very different wear and maintenance, even though it was built as a track car.

For some real world experience on some of the highest mileage Teslas out there, check out Tesloop, interesting read.

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

Tesla announce faster charging while actually reducing the speeds for many through a slight of hand trick where they increase the peak rate for 3 nanoseconds but the time to charge from say 20-80% is now the slowest it’s been for many. .

Personally as someone aiming to keep their EV for a long time, I would actually like the option to limit DC Supercharging speeds to say 50KW like you can limit the AC charging rate. When ever we stop to use Superchargers its nearly always time with lunch/breaks, and in nearly all cases the car is ready to go before we are.

SLOWER but less damaging DC supercharging would suit our EV usage much better than faster but pack destroying DC charging rates.

[Heres Johnny]

gangzoom said:

Heres Johnny said:

Tesla announce faster charging while actually reducing the speeds for many through a slight of hand trick where they increase the peak rate for 3 nanoseconds but the time to charge from say 20-80% is now the slowest it’s been for many. .

Personally as someone aiming to keep their EV for a long time, I would actually like the option to limit DC Supercharging speeds to say 50KW like you can limit the AC charging rate. When ever we stop to use Superchargers its nearly always time with lunch/breaks, and in nearly all cases the car is ready to go before we are.

SLOWER but less damaging DC supercharging would suit our EV usage much better than faster but pack destroying DC charging rates.

That would be for you to decide if it was available, but that doesn't take away from the current Tesla smoke and mirrors where they drip drip drip what seems to be yet more record breaking capabilities while the reality is something different. Its all a bit disingenuous and designed to get fan boy excited click bait traffic. One day the world might wake up and smell the coffee of what he's doing

I updated a piece I wrote a year ago about the Tesla challenge as it moves away from Innovator and early adopter buyers as it started to dawn on me that the buggy software and beta releases were less about pushing bleeding edge technology but a deliberate and cynical approach to get buyer engagement and make them feel part of the crusade. What better way of getting brand loyalty from early adopters who love this type of thing to suggest their driving around with buggy software and to report bugs was a virtue and not a liability. Master stroke really, I bet 99.999999% of reported bugs get ignored

[SWoll]

The big issue here is going to be for used buyers. With the vast majority of these cars being bought/leased and kept for a 3 year average period and 30-50k miles the first owners aren't going to give any thought to supercharging as often as they want to as the long term affect of this won't be their problem. Even if they are aware of the problem are you really going to spend twice as long charging the car on a long run out of consideration for the next owner?

MS/X used numbers are obviously quite small and they are still expensive cars but will get very interesting when lots of relatively affordable Model 3's hit the market in 2-3 years time. The amount of supercharging will end up becoming part of the sales advert with cars that have seen little fast charging commanding higher prices?

[ZesPak]

Heres Johnny said:

That would be for you to decide if it was available, but that doesn't take away from the current Tesla smoke and mirrors where they drip drip drip what seems to be yet more record breaking capabilities while the reality is something different. Its all a bit disingenuous and designed to get fan boy excited click bait traffic. One day the world might wake up and smell the coffee of what he's doing

To be honest, there are thousands of blogs and youtube videos around with people going on vacation in their Tesla far beyond what most people feel comfortable with in any car, with little or no issues.
You seem to talk a lot of superlatives for some minor issues.
As for the disingenuous click bait, Tesla doesn't do marketing. It's the one thing they don't do. Everyone else seem to be interested. And for every "record braking" headline clickbait, there's 20 "Tesla sucks because X", as a lot of people seem to love those.

As for charging speed, iirc almost no-one still beats Tesla in miles per hour charging.