More ID.3 details

[kambites]

SWoll said:

Not sure what your point is TBH. Totally different sectors and customer expectations was mine, therefore efficiency only a part of the equation rather than the absolute driving force.

Most cars which sell in the Model-3's sector aren't particularly powerful or fast though; the big sellers are things like the 320d. I'm sure if Tesla believed they could get significantly more range from a slower version of the Model-3, they'd be producing one. For most people, even most buyers of compact execs, performance simply doesn't matter as long as the car is capable of maintaining 80mph on the motorway.

The reason Teslas are all (relatively) fast is that there's no real downside to making them so.

[SWoll]

kambites said:

SWoll said:

Not sure what your point is TBH. Totally different sectors and customer expectations was mine, therefore efficiency only a part of the equation rather than the absolute driving force.

Most cars which sell in the Model-3's sector aren't particularly powerful or fast though; the big sellers are things like the 320d. I'm sure if Tesla believed they could get significantly more range from a slower version of the Model-3, they'd be producing one. For most people, even most buyers of compact execs, performance simply doesn't matter as long as the car is capable of maintaining 80mph on the motorway.

The reason Teslas are all (relatively) fast is that there's no real downside to making them so.

I don't agree. The current 320D has 200bhp and a 0-60 time in the 6's. Definitely a consideration for many buyers/leasers in that sector IME. By your logic they'd sell just as many if it had less performance but more MPG, BMW obviously don't agree and they wouldn't also sell a 330d and 340d with worse MPG again if performance simply didn't matter?

[kambites]

SWoll said:

I don't agree. The current 320D has 200bhp and a 0-60 time in the 6's. Definitely a consideration for many buyers/leasers in that sector IME. By your logic they'd sell just as many if it had less performance but more MPG, BMW obviously don't agree and they wouldn't also sell a 330d and 340d with worse MPG again if performance simply didn't matter?

I didn't say no-one wanted fast cars, I said more buyers don't than do, which is why the 320d out-sells the six-pot engines combined by some margin. The 320d takes 6.8 seconds to get to 60 which certainly isn't slow, but it's hardly ballistic. I'm sure if there was a bigger difference in economy between the 320d and 318d the 318 would out-sell the 320.

[SWoll]

kambites said:

SWoll said:

I don't agree. The current 320D has 200bhp and a 0-60 time in the 6's. Definitely a consideration for many buyers/leasers in that sector IME. By your logic they'd sell just as many if it had less performance but more MPG, BMW obviously don't agree and they wouldn't also sell a 330d and 340d with worse MPG again if performance simply didn't matter?

I didn't say no-one wanted fast cars, I said more buyers don't than do, which is why the 320d out-sells the six-pot engines combined by some margin. The 320d takes 6.8 seconds to get to 60 which certainly isn't slow, but it's hardly ballistic. I'm sure if there was a bigger difference in economy between the 320d and 318d the 318 would out-sell the 320.

I think its safe to say the £10k difference in price and lower BIK is the big reason for 320d sales. Level up the cost and do you think those sales numbers would stay the same despite better MPG?

Performance is a bigger factor in the small executive sector than you think IME. Family SUV/Hatchbacks, not so much.

[dmsims]

Diesel BIK is thankfully now in the high twenties %

£346 a month extra tax if you earn £50K p.a.

Edited by dmsims on Friday 30th April 14:02

[SWoll]

dmsims said:

Diesel BIK is thankfully now in the high twenties %

£346 a month extra tax if you earn £50K p.a.

Edited by dmsims on Friday 30th April 14:02

For the 320d yes, not for the 340d though. £12k difference in list and 7% higher BIK rate will cost you another £230 a month, hence why the 320d is so popular and on so many CC lists. Very little to do with people not caring about performance.

[annodomini2]

Heres Johnny said:

annodomini2 said:

Tesla's are currently the most efficient at around 260wh/mile

Hyundai currently second at around 270ish.

Most of the VAG stuff is around 360wh/mile at the minute.

Can you show your evidence of that given WLTP is around 220 wh/m for the id3?

I admit my numbers were wrong and should have researched better

ID.3 is 260Wh/m not 360, must have misread.

Tesla M3 SR+ is 235Wh/m.

These are real world numbers averaged over the year from ev database

[Heres Johnny]

SWoll said:

I think its safe to say the £10k difference in price and lower BIK is the big reason for 320d sales. Level up the cost and do you think those sales numbers would stay the same despite better MPG?

Performance is a bigger factor in the small executive sector than you think IME. Family SUV/Hatchbacks, not so much.

Make your mind up whether straight line performance matters or not. You query my post about not finding pwoerful engines in small cars then say buyers care about these things.

The best selling Golf isn't the GTi or VR6. Some just prefer refinement, comfort, quietness etc and even efficiency can take a back seat for some, just look at those who prefer the etron which isn't ipace or mx fast. People value different things.

[ZesPak]

Heres Johnny said:

The best selling Golf isn't the GTi or VR6. Some just prefer refinement, comfort, quietness etc and even efficiency can take a back seat for some, just look at those who prefer the etron which isn't ipace or mx fast. People value different things.

That's a bit disingenuous as to what people prefer. Make the GTI as cheap as the most popular Golf now and let's see again if people go for the frugal/refined one or the hot one.

People buy the e-tron because they had Audi's before and they will have Audi's hereafter.

[Heres Johnny]

ZesPak said:

That's a bit disingenuous as to what people prefer. Make the GTI as cheap as the most popular Golf now and let's see again if people go for the frugal/refined one or the hot one.

People buy the e-tron because they had Audi's before and they will have Audi's hereafter.

That’s a bit disingenuous too

People like different things. My sisters would never entertain the GTI because of firmer suspension and a gash tartan interior. They’d also prefer better fuel economy.

People pick cars for a wealth of reasons

[JonChalk]

Heres Johnny said:

That’s a bit disingenuous too

People like different things. My sisters would never entertain the GTI because of firmer suspension and a gash tartan interior. They’d also prefer better fuel economy.

People pick cars for a wealth of reasons

My wife won't consider an Up GTI solely because of the tartan cloth seats.

(She's not that shallow about most other things - people are all weird and different!)

[SWoll]

Heres Johnny said:

SWoll said:

I think its safe to say the £10k difference in price and lower BIK is the big reason for 320d sales. Level up the cost and do you think those sales numbers would stay the same despite better MPG?

Performance is a bigger factor in the small executive sector than you think IME. Family SUV/Hatchbacks, not so much.

Make your mind up whether straight line performance matters or not. You query my post about not finding pwoerful engines in small cars then say buyers care about these things.

The best selling Golf isn't the GTi or VR6. Some just prefer refinement, comfort, quietness etc and even efficiency can take a back seat for some, just look at those who prefer the etron which isn't ipace or mx fast. People value different things.

Once more for those at the back..

Buyers in the small executive sector care far more about performance than those buying family SUV/hatchbacks for numerous reasons, many of them status/top trumps related I'm sure as the vast majority are leased as company cars. Has ever been the case.

Not sure what's so hard to grasp, but as you seem determined to pick an argument as ever I shouldn't be surprised I suppose.

[kambites]

I'm sure most people would take the faster car if there's no down-sides to it. I thought the question here is whether people are willing to trade range for performance... given that compact execs are often bought to cover large mileages, I rather suspect most would prefer the range if there was such a trade off to be made (not that I'm convinced there is).

[Heres Johnny]

SWoll said:

Heres Johnny said:

SWoll said:

I think its safe to say the £10k difference in price and lower BIK is the big reason for 320d sales. Level up the cost and do you think those sales numbers would stay the same despite better MPG?

Performance is a bigger factor in the small executive sector than you think IME. Family SUV/Hatchbacks, not so much.

Make your mind up whether straight line performance matters or not. You query my post about not finding pwoerful engines in small cars then say buyers care about these things.

The best selling Golf isn't the GTi or VR6. Some just prefer refinement, comfort, quietness etc and even efficiency can take a back seat for some, just look at those who prefer the etron which isn't ipace or mx fast. People value different things.

Once more for those at the back..

Buyers in the small executive sector care far more about performance than those buying family SUV/hatchbacks for numerous reasons, many of them status/top trumps related I'm sure as the vast majority are leased as company cars. Has ever been the case.

Not sure what's so hard to grasp, but as you seem determined to pick an argument as ever I shouldn't be surprised I suppose.

For those gobhby ones at the front who just want to turn everything inbto a "l have a Tesla" thread, this is a thread about the ID3 and has bugger all to do with that,

[SWoll]

Heres Johnny said:

SWoll said:

Heres Johnny said:

SWoll said:

I think its safe to say the £10k difference in price and lower BIK is the big reason for 320d sales. Level up the cost and do you think those sales numbers would stay the same despite better MPG?

Performance is a bigger factor in the small executive sector than you think IME. Family SUV/Hatchbacks, not so much.

Make your mind up whether straight line performance matters or not. You query my post about not finding pwoerful engines in small cars then say buyers care about these things.

The best selling Golf isn't the GTi or VR6. Some just prefer refinement, comfort, quietness etc and even efficiency can take a back seat for some, just look at those who prefer the etron which isn't ipace or mx fast. People value different things.

Once more for those at the back..

Buyers in the small executive sector care far more about performance than those buying family SUV/hatchbacks for numerous reasons, many of them status/top trumps related I'm sure as the vast majority are leased as company cars. Has ever been the case.

Not sure what's so hard to grasp, but as you seem determined to pick an argument as ever I shouldn't be surprised I suppose.

For those gobhby ones at the front who just want to turn everything inbto a "l have a Tesla" thread, this is a thread about the ID3 and has bugger all to do with that,

Thanks for proving my point.

[ZesPak]

Heres Johnny said:

For those gobhby ones at the front who just want to turn everything inbto a "l have a Tesla" thread, this is a thread about the ID3 and has bugger all to do with that,

But on the other hand, this is PH, where speed matters.

[kambites]

It's not really any different than the way every thread about a new sports car descends into talking about Porsches. Partly it's just natural to compare new cars to their most established competition, and partly the Tesla brand seems to have Porsche-like levels of tribalism.

[dxg]

kambites said:

ZesPak said:

At motorway speeds that sedan shape does pay dividends though,.

Yup, which is why Hyundai/Kia's efficiency is so remarkable. The Kona and eNiro pretty much match the model-3 despite being decidedly brick-like; the Ioniq trounces them all. Bjorn Nyland got 134wh/km out of the thing at 120kph!

Edited by kambites on Friday 30th April 10:29

Sounds like things are not far off having to keep your car clean to increase the fuel efficiency. Like the airlines do.

[SWoll]

kambites said:

It's not really any different than the way every thread about a new sports car descends into talking about Porsches. Partly it's just natural to compare new cars to their most established competition, and partly the Tesla brand seems to have Porsche-like levels of tribalism.

The comparison was made between the efficiency of other EV's and a Tesla so I was spitballing as to why that might be, this is a discussion forum after all?

Anyway, I'd swap ours for a Taycan tomorrow and happily join the other tribe. No brand loyalty here.

[ZesPak]

I would have, it it weren't for the damn reverse Tardis engineering :P